Russia moves closer to US in wake of attacks...

[The Yosemite Bear]

Ask britian to "nicely" ask their Gurka friends to be increadbly polite peace keepers again?

oh wait, that's never occured to anyone lately....

[CaptainChewbacca]

Intelligence derived outside of Russians sources, limited access to the premier signal interception network in the world, the ability to shut down worldwide "Islamic charities" that fund terrorists ...

Likewise Russia has intelligence assets in the Islamic world that the US would love to tap, a much larger potential mole and infiltrator population ...

Not knowing how close cooperation was before at the highest levels, Russia might stand to gain substantially if the US is willing to share the fruits of its high tech toys and spy network or devote more of its intelligence efforts to supporting Russian counterterrorism. It is not just Rumsfeld, but everyone who works under him and the technology he controls that Russia would love to have working on their side (assuming it isn't already); Rumsfeld is just a convenient administrator.

Russia has the people and the contacts, we have the cash and the toys. It's like peanutbutter and salami.

[tharkûn]

Oh yes, the same intel network that has trouble finding people who speak the language and which told us that Iraq could strike the US in 45 minutes with WMD will now turn its fearsome All-Seeing Eye upon Chechnya. Forgive me, the genius of this move had not occurred to me.

Right because the network failed then, it must be totally worthless, hell the US government aught to just stop funding the CIA, NSA, etc. and use the cash to pay down their outstanding debt because it is so worthless

Do you honestly think that the CIA, and all the other acronymns, has nothing to offer the Russians? Do you honestly think that post-soviet Russia has anywhere near the technological spy capabilities that the US possesses? Do you honestly think that having the US's ability to track funding and close down "charities" wouldn't be helpful? Do you honestly think that Russia wouldn't like US backing when dealing with Pakistani, Israeli, or Saudi intelligence and governments?

There are benifits from working with the US, and for better or worse Rumsfeld is on the short list of power brokers in the current administration. Even if the Russians thought Rumsfeld was a pointblank idiot they still would love to have access to the toys he has access to; they would love to have him on their side in the inevitable cabinet debates when American-Russian policy is discussed. If Russia can get what Russia wants by working with a moron, then sure as hell they will work with a moron and smile about it in public.

[Vympel]

I find it more likely that Invanov will be pressing Rumsfeld to give up the Chechen seperatist leaders/representatives American (and the UK) have granted asylum- the Russians are quick to take advantage of the opportunity afforded by Beslan to eradicate the credibility the seperatist leaders have.

[Darth Wong]

Oh yes, the same intel network that has trouble finding people who speak the language and which told us that Iraq could strike the US in 45 minutes with WMD will now turn its fearsome All-Seeing Eye upon Chechnya. Forgive me, the genius of this move had not occurred to me.

Right because the network failed then, it must be totally worthless, hell the US government aught to just stop funding the CIA, NSA, etc. and use the cash to pay down their outstanding debt because it is so worthless

Oh goody, just exaggerate the point in order to defeat it! You still have no evidence that the CIA has anything useful to offer the Russians on the Chechnya matter, or that they have even devoted any significant resources at all to monitoring that situation.

Do you honestly think that the CIA, and all the other acronymns, has nothing to offer the Russians? Do you honestly think that post-soviet Russia has anywhere near the technological spy capabilities that the US possesses?

As Iraq demonstrated, human intelligence is much more important than spy satellites.

Do you honestly think that having the US's ability to track funding and close down "charities" wouldn't be helpful?

They've already been trying to do this, in case you hadn't noticed.

Do you honestly think that Russia wouldn't like US backing when dealing with Pakistani, Israeli, or Saudi intelligence and governments?

Thank you for conceding the point; as I said before, the most tangible benefit is political.

There are benifits from working with the US, and for better or worse Rumsfeld is on the short list of power brokers in the current administration. Even if the Russians thought Rumsfeld was a pointblank idiot they still would love to have access to the toys he has access to; they would love to have him on their side in the inevitable cabinet debates when American-Russian policy is discussed. If Russia can get what Russia wants by working with a moron, then sure as hell they will work with a moron and smile about it in public.

Triumphantly echoing my own point back at me is a bit of a waste of breath, don't you think?

[Sea Skimmer]

Ask britian to "nicely" ask their Gurka friends to be increadbly polite peace keepers again?

oh wait, that's never occured to anyone lately....

Considering how many documented rapes the Gurkhas are wanted for in Kenya, that might not be the best idea.

[tharkûn]

Oh goody, just exaggerate the point in order to defeat it! You still have no evidence that the CIA has anything useful to offer the Russians on the Chechnya matter, or that they have even devoted any significant resources at all to monitoring that situation.

So you think the CIA has nothing "useful" for the Russians? All that sigint, useless. All those spy satellites, useless. All those AQ prisoners, useless.

Has the CIA devoted significant resources at monitoring the situation? Beats the hell out of me. If they haven't and the Russians would like them to who would you talk with to get that changed? Rumsfeld is a decent candidate to talk with if you want to change US intelligence goals.

As Iraq demonstrated, human intelligence is much more important than spy satellites.

So it is more important, that doesn't mean it is without value. There are things of value that the US can offer and Rumsfeld is not a terrible choice to get at them.

They've already been trying to do this, in case you hadn't noticed.

Yes and Russia doesn't have anywhere near the cabilities that the US does, both in access to records and the ability to force changes abroad.

Thank you for conceding the point; as I said before, the most tangible benefit is political.

The point you made before was:
"The Russians don't need advice from Donald Rumsfeld; they already know how to abuse prisoners and botch an occupation."

and was stated to mean:
"What arcane knowledge of terrorism does Donald Rumsfeld have to offer the Russians? Or are they announcing this co-operation simply because they're looking for a political ally when they start pulling their dicks out?"

I seem to be missing the point in here where you ever conceded that Rumsfeld had any value in his own right.

Sure diplomatic concerns are in this, but no way in hell can you discount that US sigint is useful nor that Rumsfeld has information from sources (like say Mossad) which don't give it to Moscow directly.

Triumphantly echoing my own point back at me is a bit of a waste of breath, don't you think?

What that if the Russians want access to American sigint Rumsfeld is good candidate to work with? That if Russia wants access to humint information derived from sources outside of Russia's sphere of influence Rumsfeld is a good candidate to work with?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Damn what's become of them, the Gurka's always had a reputation of being very honorable and cold blooded killers. uncluding things like paying their POW's to act as porters/boatmen in the Napoleonic Era and WWI and WWII....

not to mention vietnam....

[Knife]

Just as Knife (or, at least, I think it was Knife) was annoyed by the way this board needlessly stomped all over the Pope's efforts to preach to Canada because it was useless celebration of the general aversion - or even hostility - to religion.

Um, no. I don't think I would take that postion. Seeing as how I'm not a big fan of religion myself.

[Darth Wong]

So you think the CIA has nothing "useful" for the Russians? All that sigint, useless. All those spy satellites, useless. All those AQ prisoners, useless.

Yes, of course, their talkative Al-Quaeda prisoners warned the US of the school attack plan, and ... wait a minute, that never happened.

Has the CIA devoted significant resources at monitoring the situation? Beats the hell out of me. If they haven't and the Russians would like them to who would you talk with to get that changed? Rumsfeld is a decent candidate to talk with if you want to change US intelligence goals.

Ah yes, because US Intelligence has nothing else on its plate. They couldn't even figure out exactly where Al-Sadr was during the siege, for fuck's sake.

As Iraq demonstrated, human intelligence is much more important than spy satellites.

So it is more important, that doesn't mean it is without value. There are things of value that the US can offer and Rumsfeld is not a terrible choice to get at them.

Yes, because they will no doubt have superior intel about Chechnya, and better surveillance coverage of the area. Wow, I had no idea!

They've already been trying to do this, in case you hadn't noticed.

Yes and Russia doesn't have anywhere near the cabilities that the US does, both in access to records and the ability to force changes abroad.

The point sailed over your head, I see. I was saying that the US is already trying to shut down any and all sources of funding to Al-Quaeda regardless of the Russian situation.

Thank you for conceding the point; as I said before, the most tangible benefit is political.

The point you made before was:
"The Russians don't need advice from Donald Rumsfeld; they already know how to abuse prisoners and botch an occupation."

and was stated to mean:
"What arcane knowledge of terrorism does Donald Rumsfeld have to offer the Russians? Or are they announcing this co-operation simply because they're looking for a political ally when they start pulling their dicks out?"

I seem to be missing the point in here where you ever conceded that Rumsfeld had any value in his own right.

No, I was saying that you were conceding that the chief value of this affiliation is political maneuvering rather than Rumsfeld actually being able to teach them anything. Where the fuck did you learn to read?

Sure diplomatic concerns are in this, but no way in hell can you discount that US sigint is useful nor that Rumsfeld has information from sources (like say Mossad) which don't give it to Moscow directly.

Oh yes, Israel has extensive intel in Chechnya. That will prove most useful. You seem to be stuck in this mode of thought that presumes Al-Quaeda has some kind of central C&C, so operations of any Islamic extremists in the world can be compromised if you can just crack the network in some totally unrelated part of the world. What kind of enemy do you think you're dealing with?

What that if the Russians want access to American sigint Rumsfeld is good candidate to work with? That if Russia wants access to humint information derived from sources outside of Russia's sphere of influence Rumsfeld is a good candidate to work with?

What if you had to actually show that the Americans had any useful data on Chechnya-area terrorists at all before bragging about this wonderful data that the Russians are drooling over?

[MKSheppard]

Oh yes, Do you think Donald Rumsfeld knows everything, or even that Ivanov
knows everything?

Most likeyly they set up an exchange program have a boatload of US
advisors flown straight from Iraq to Moscow to teach the Russians everything
they know about fighting an insurgency wihout flattening everything around
the area.

And of course the CIA and FSB probably are flying people to Moscow and
Langley to share data and intelligence that they have on Al-Quaeda, etc/

[tharkûn]

Yes, of course, their talkative Al-Quaeda prisoners warned the US of the school attack plan, and ... wait a minute, that never happened.

Yes because intelligence didn't have the answers then it will never have the answers in the future

Ah yes, because US Intelligence has nothing else on its plate. They couldn't even figure out exactly where Al-Sadr was during the siege, for fuck's sake.

If you want the US to devote additional resources to your problem with whom would you talk to make that happen? Rumsfeld perhaps?

Again can you leave off with the fallicious premise that because US intelligence wasn't useful in one instance it is without value.

Yes, because they will no doubt have superior intel about Chechnya, and better surveillance coverage of the area. Wow, I had no idea!

Superior and better? No. Additional and supplemental? Hell yes. It doesn't have to be better than what the Russians already have to be valuable, supplementary intel and complementary surveillance is desirable - hell why do you think the US utilizes intelligence assets from dozens of countries with far inferior intel services?

The point sailed over your head, I see. I was saying that the US is already trying to shut down any and all sources of funding to Al-Quaeda regardless of the Russian situation.

Yes but will they shut down non-AQ sources? There are numerous Chechyan groups which get funding outside of AQ, shutting those down as well as AQ funding would be nice.

No, I was saying that you were conceding that the chief value of this affiliation is political maneuvering rather than Rumsfeld actually being able to teach them anything. Where the fuck did you learn to read?

I first learned to read in Tel Aviv, how about you?

Let's look back at the original article:

He added that the United States was best placed to understand Russia's situation because it had also been the target of major attacks, and he said he had discussed the issue with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld twice this week.

"In this sense it seems easier to find grounds for an understanding with the United States than with some European states," Ivanov said.

Where in bloody hell did you get the idea that the discussion was about "teaching" or advising? Most likely they talked about sharing complentary intel, about what sort of cooperation the US and Russia could undertake, possibly extradition, and a helluvalot stuff that the US secretary of defense has access to and could help the Russians get access to. Nothing in the article suggest that the Russians are asking for advice or schooling, that is just a convenient strawman you seem to have conjured from nothing.

Oh yes, Israel has extensive intel in Chechnya. That will prove most useful. You seem to be stuck in this mode of thought that presumes Al-Quaeda has some kind of central C&C, so operations of any Islamic extremists in the world can be compromised if you can just crack the network in some totally unrelated part of the world. What kind of enemy do you think you're dealing with?

You do realize that some of the hostage takers were Arabs and trained in locations where the Mossad is most likely active, right? That Chechnya, like Iraq has foreign leaders and fighters moving in from areas under Mossad surveillence. While there isn't a strict hiearchy there IS a flow of manpower, planning, and resources from the middleeast and monitoring that flow would help Russia. These are not static terrorist cells where you can ignore the rest of the organization.

What if you had to actually show that the Americans had any useful data on Chechnya-area terrorists at all before bragging about this wonderful data that the Russians are drooling over?

What if any such data would be classified at least Top Secret if not lost somewhere in SCI? What if anyone who demanded that level of burden of proof was either an idiot or purposefully setting the burden of proof at unreachable levels?

Do you think it might a possibility that the US secratary of defense has access to sigint and humint from channels the Russians can't directly access and the Russians would like some sort of access?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

OH! The unification of the eagle and the bear! nostradamus predicted this a the sign of the beginning of the battle to fight the 3rd great antichrist!

so did some scifi authors. the codominium is coming.

Hey now, that would rock..... Once we got past the horrific bloodshed and the dictatorships to the Empire of Man and the colonising of space.