NY Times: Guantanemo Prisoners Abused

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aerius
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Post by aerius »

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:We NEED the shitstorm, we NEED the lawyers defending their rights, and we NEED all the unholy hell it would cause. If it results in measures taken to ensure that this shit never happens again, then it would have only done good.
I hold a much more pessimistic view of it. There's a few possible outcomes I can think of, none of them good.

1) With the media and lawyer frenzy, the government declares it's impossible to hold a fair trial and ships them all off to some shithole island for an indefinite period of time until they're forgotten. Back to square one.

2) Political parties start using the trials to advance their agendas. Some trials get corrupted, some get thrown out, then see situation 1.

3) The trials cause too much controversy, the verdicts cause LA Riots nationwide. Government clamps down on civil liberties, ships off all the prisoners to some shithole island. See 1.
Edi wrote:You ignore that US military bases are considered US soil. US laws apply there, and breaking them can land you in prison. Commit murder on a US base abroad, and you will be hauled up into court on murder charges in the applicable jurisdiction.

The argument that just because it isn't in CONUS, Hawaii or a few assorted other islands the US owns doesn't mean fuck all, because the area is still under sole US jurisdiction, hence the US laws (of which the Constitution is the FIRST AND FOREMOST) apply. There is no bullshitting around this fact. You might generally be a good debater, Aerius, but in this case you are just plain fucking wrong. The only way that argument can even be made is through dishonest sophistry or ignorance of relevant legal theory and first principles. You are making the argument out of ignorance, the Bush administration is making it out of dishonest sophistry.
Didn't know that. Still, it was a smart & cold-blooded move by the US government. It ain't right, but there's no denying how good of a political move it was for the government. Out of sight, out of mind, and after the first couple months of media attention almost everyone in the US has forgotten about it or doesn't care anymore.
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Post by weemadando »

My opinions on the matter are well noted, but just for the record I'll say that the US is just being plain old belligerant and acting like fuck-heads, holding people without evidance, trial or due process, while engaging in wide-spread torture (both mental and physical) that has been documented.

Surely at the very least all the people being held deserve SOME sort of trial to determine whether or not they were an illegal combatant or a threat or whatever, some sort of commital hearing. Lets face it, Mamdouh Habib (and Australian inmate) was arrested while travelling on a train in Pakistan to Karachi. He has "alleged terrorist" connections, and of course being Middle Eastern in origin - must be a terrorist! No news of him aside from the fact that he has been a victim of organised beatings by guards and at last report was refusing to take his anti-depression medication. No date has been set for a trial. Somehow he has been classified as an illegal combatant. Sure, I get that. Makes sense to me...

I find it hard to believe that so many people here can be so wilfully uncaring about the people being held in detention by the US for so long. Sure, be uncaring, but at least look at what it is that the US is doing. Just THINK for a moment about whether or not the US is justified in holding thousands of people without trial - for up to 3 years. Not just without trial but without basic rights.

If you can still say that you don't care. Fuck you. Just my opinion that last part. But I mean it.
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Post by aerius »

weemadando wrote:Surely at the very least all the people being held deserve SOME sort of trial to determine whether or not they were an illegal combatant or a threat or whatever, some sort of commital hearing.
Do fascist show trials count? :lol:
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Post by darthdavid »

You're making fun of this shit aerius, but how would you like it if they decided that you were an "illegal combatant" and tossed your ass in camp x-ray then refused to give you a trial? Would you make jokes about fascist show trials then? Maybe we should find out...
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Post by weemadando »

aerius wrote:
weemadando wrote:Surely at the very least all the people being held deserve SOME sort of trial to determine whether or not they were an illegal combatant or a threat or whatever, some sort of commital hearing.
Do fascist show trials count? :lol:
Yeah, but Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia didn't even PRETEND to have a just system...

If the US just dropped the pretense and said: "We're breaking all sorts of international laws and don't give a shit about what the fuck y'all think about us." then proceed to drop their pants and moon the UN general assembly... Then I'd say - fair enough.

But all this dilly-dallying and cannot confirm nor denying... And pretending that they are doing the world a favour and acting correctly, it just SHITS me.
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Post by Howedar »

I find it hard to disagree. My only worry is that the international community is generalizing this administration's actions to the point that they think all Americans are okay with this.
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Post by Thinkmarble »

aerius wrote:Somehow, I quit caring about those prisoners after the beheadings started. Frankly I wouldn't lose any sleep if they were all executed.
Do you also advocate the execution of every single american soldiers stationed in Iraq ?
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Post by Edi »

Howedar wrote:I find it hard to disagree. My only worry is that the international community is generalizing this administration's actions to the point that they think all Americans are okay with this.
Obviously a large enough number of Americans see nothing wrong with it, because there is relatively little outcry about the situation. Hence most of the generalisations are not too far off the mark.

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Post by Howedar »

Excuse me for being frank, but have you even been to the US? What do you know of public outcry or lack thereof besides 30 second blurbs on the news?

For that matter, what makes you think most of the American populace even knows? It's a very popular activity to make fun of Americans for their stupidty on one hand while criticizing them for not speaking out on unknown issues on the other (not that you're necessarily doing that).
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Post by Edi »

Howedar wrote:Excuse me for being frank, but have you even been to the US? What do you know of public outcry or lack thereof besides 30 second blurbs on the news?
I know what I see, and all I see about Guantanamo is an article or two every couple of months, typically in news sources a large number of Americans often dismiss as being "liberal", and those articles do not create much public discussion in the venues I follow, and they do not cause a series of followup stories, or anything that can be described as extensive public discourse. The only reaction they get is a load of rabid wingnuts jumping in and throwing up a smokescreen about "terrorism blah blah blah, national security blah blah blah, not US soil blah blah blah, they have no rights blah blah blah" in a drumbeat that snuffs out any potential discussion before it can even get properly started.
Howedar wrote:For that matter, what makes you think most of the American populace even knows?
Anybody who has even cursorily followed the War on Terror and related news and has no idea what Camp X-ray in Gitmo is for has been burying their head in the sand for the past two years, and is too fucking stupid to live. After the Abu Ghraib debacle last spring, anybody who does not at least suspect that similar things are going on in Camp X-ray is too fucking stupid to live.

I've no problem with people who state outright that they are not following the news, or are not interested in politics. They have not bothered to find out about things, so the ignorance of such people is understandbale. My understanding and patient nature vanishes in an eyeblink if these kinds of people contradict me out of that willful ignorance and insist that they know better. Those who do not know about it are a non-issue, but I daresay most Americans know about Gitmo, it has been in the spotlight on the War on Terror often enough, and there have been enough references to it.

Yet there is mostly resounding silence on the issue from the American public, and the only reasonable conclusion based on the available data is that a majority of Americans either
  • approve of even illegel methods being used there on what they see as terrorists
  • think there is nothing wrong with Gitmo and there are no fishy procedures being used there
  • think what's happening is wrong, but that national security must come first, so too bad for the Camp X-ray inmates
  • or simply don't give a fuck
The most likely answer is that the majority of Americans is a combination of all of the above, with those who clearly condemn the practices in Gitmo a rather small minority. The presence of such a number of apologists for the Bush administration's decisions on this issue in every place where there are Americans (even on this board, where Bush apologists are relatively scarcer than elsewhere) just reinforces that impression.
Howedar wrote:It's a very popular activity to make fun of Americans for their stupidty on one hand while criticizing them for not speaking out on unknown issues on the other (not that you're necessarily doing that).
Yes, it's a popular activity of making fun of the stupidity of the majority of Americans who do not have an informed opinion and still go out spouting all kinds of nonsense, and I see nothing wrong with it. The Americans on this board do that at least as much as I do.

You seem to have taken issue with my pointing out that the majority of Americans seem to approve of what's going on in Gitmo despite it being decidedly unconstitutional, but that's where the evidence points, and I'm not going to just stay silent about it. If me speaking out offends some people out of some misplaced sense of jingoism, I don't give a toss.

The Camp X-ray issue is not something very obscure, and has been very public for a long time, so claiming that it is an "unknown issue" is dishonest at the very least. The biggest problem I've got with the American reaction to it is that every time anything related to policing US citizens is borught up anywhere, a veritable horde of Americans come out waving the constitution around like some sacred document and screaming themselves hoarse about how they are being oppressed and their rights violated, but I've seen quite a few of these same people happily support the unconstitutional policies being implemented in Gitmo and on anybody else who is NOT an American. As long as this keeps happening, all you can expect from foreigners is general scorn and ridicule toward the US whenever this topic of discussion keeps cropping up. Most of that will be directed at the US government and not the people, but people who support those government policies will also get the full brunt of it.

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Post by Darth Wong »

Howedar is taking advantage of your distance to sell you a song-and-dance routine. It's total bullshit; there is no "outrage" in America about prisoner abuse. It's more like embarrassment than outrage, and there is a quite sizable proportion of the population which isn't even embarrassed.
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Post by Edi »

And to answer your first question, no I have not been to the US. I do take an interest in what is happening over there on the general level though, so I'm far more in touch with the current politics there than an average Finn. Might have something to do with being active here, reading some US news magazines whenever I get my hands on them (I am a subscriber to Time, for example) and following online news sources like Reuters.

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Post by Edi »

Darth Wong wrote:Howedar is taking advantage of your distance to sell you a song-and-dance routine. It's total bullshit; there is no "outrage" in America about prisoner abuse. It's more like embarrassment than outrage, and there is a quite sizable proportion of the population which isn't even embarrassed.
Yeah, I know. The next time he pulls it, he's going to get outright flamed.

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Post by Stark »

So people buy the party line that everyone in X-ray is a bona-fide proper honest-to-Allah terrorist? What do you base that on? Government say-so? Thats why there's an independent judiciary you know; things called rights and stuff.
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Post by aerius »

weemadando wrote:Yeah, but Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia didn't even PRETEND to have a just system...

If the US just dropped the pretense and said: "We're breaking all sorts of international laws and don't give a shit about what the fuck y'all think about us." then proceed to drop their pants and moon the UN general assembly... Then I'd say - fair enough.
That's a good point. Sometimes I wish it would happen, but then I remember where I live and how much it would suck.
Thinkmarble wrote:Do you also advocate the execution of every single american soldiers stationed in Iraq ?
No, but I am a supporter of The Shep Solution for the Middle East problem. :D
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Post by Stravo »

The way I see it, we cannot expouse the wonders of our society and civilization if we will use the same methods and means on our prisoners as they use on their own people. By that I mean we cannot claim to be 'better' than the terrorists if we don't treat the terrorists as well as we would treat anyone else. The strength of a society is best measured on how it treats the least of its members not how it treats the best.

By treating the prisoners in this manner we are only showing that our civilized veneer is just that. A veneer, a cloak that we can cast off at will when it's least convenient for us. How much more amazing would it be for these bastards to be treated like human beings and have the world marvel at America's ability to treat her enemies as fairly as it treats her citizens.

Instead, we're nothing more than more of the same.

If you don't have a problem with that then what is this war on terror about if it truly is a cultural war as many have advocated. If its just an eye for an eye then don't be a hypocritical son of a bitch and couch it in terms of nobility or justice or freedom because NONE of that has anything to do with whats happening in Gitmo.
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Post by Elfdart »

Of course whatever goes on at Camp X-ray is justified. After all, the USA is better than any other country and nitpicky little rules like the Geneva Conventions and treaties against torture are for fag countries like Sweden and Holland. Our shit doesn't stink, either. Don't these do-gooders realize how much of a menace 11 and 12-year-old children are?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... guan_x.htm

We had to kidnap them and lock them up for almost two years. If not, they might decide to become terrorists after puberty and Pokemon! :roll: Do you people want the terrorists to win? -which is exactly what will happen if we don't abduct more pre-adolescents. Maybe Joseph Smith should be pardoned by Jeb Bush down in Florida and put in charge of special teams to handle it. He has experience with this sort of thing. *
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Post by salm »

Elfdart wrote:Of course whatever goes on at Camp X-ray is justified. After all, the USA is better than any other country and nitpicky little rules like the Geneva Conventions and treaties against torture are for fag countries like Sweden and Holland. Our shit doesn't stink, either. Don't these do-gooders realize how much of a menace 11 and 12-year-old children are?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... guan_x.htm

We had to kidnap them and lock them up for almost two years. If not, they might decide to become terrorists after puberty and Pokemon! :roll: Do you people want the terrorists to win? -which is exactly what will happen if we don't abduct more pre-adolescents. Maybe Joseph Smith should be pardoned by Jeb Bush down in Florida and put in charge of special teams to handle it. He has experience with this sort of thing. *
if i was one of these boys and weren´t a terrorist before gitmo i´d definately become one after being released.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Bush Administration: proudly fulfilling Osama Bin-Laden's worst criticisms since 2001.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Edi wrote:You can fuck off, Shep, you're just spouting bullshit as usual. Yeah, one guilty nutcase was released and later wound up killed when he went back to Afghanistan. That has fuck-all relevance to the treatment of the other prisoners.
And you can fuck off too Edi.

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WASHINGTON (AP) -- At least seven former prisoners of the United States at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have been involved in terrorist acts, despite gaining their freedom by signing pledges to renounce violence, according to the Pentagon.

At least two are believed to have died in fighting in Afghanistan, and a third was recaptured during a raid of a suspected training camp in Afghanistan, Lt. Cmdr. Flex Plexico, a Pentagon spokesman, said last week. Others are at large.

The seven were among 203 detainees released from the prison at the U.S. naval base on Cuba's southeastern tip since it opened in early 2002.

Of those, 146 were let go only after U.S. officials determined they no longer posed threats and had no remaining intelligence value.

The other 57 prisoners were transferred to the custody of their home governments: 29 to Pakistan; seven to Russia; five each to Morocco and Britain; four each to France and Saudi Arabia; and one each to Spain, Sweden and Denmark, the Pentagon said.

About 540 detainees are still being held at Guantanamo Bay and the review process continues. The last release of prisoners occurred on September 22 with the release of 11.

Pentagon officials acknowledged that the release process is imperfect, but they said most of the Guantanamo detainees released have steered clear of Islamic insurgent groups.

The small number returning to the fight demonstrates the delicate balance the United States must strike between minimizing the appearance of holding people unjustly and keeping those who are legitimate long-term threats, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said.

Human rights groups frequently criticize the Defense Department for holding the hundreds of prisoners at the naval base, largely without charges or legal counsel. Many have been held for more than two years; only a few have been charged.

The Pentagon did not identify the seven detainees believed to have returned to fighting, although a few names have been made public. One released detainee killed a judge leaving a mosque in Afghanistan, Plexico said.

Those who have gone back to fighting come mainly from the upper echelons of suspected militant or terror groups, some allegedly linked to al Qaeda, several counterterrorism officials in the Middle East said.

They gave no details, but one noted a trend that lower-echelon members tend to get on with their lives after they are released.

The former prisoners include Abdullah Mehsud, accused by Pakistani authorities of overseeing the recent kidnapping of two Chinese engineers, one of whom was killed.

On Friday, Pakistani soldiers began a massive search for Mehsud, 28, who returned to Pakistan in March after about two years' detention at Guantanamo. Pakistan officials said he has forged ties with al Qaeda since then.

One of the two former prisoners killed was Maulvi Abdul Ghaffar, a senior Taliban commander in northern Afghanistan who was arrested about two months after a U.S.-led coalition drove the militia from power in late 2001.

He was held at Guantanamo for eight months, then released, and was killed about a month ago, on September 26, by Afghan security forces during a raid in Uruzgan province. Afghan leaders said they believed he was leading Taliban forces in the southern province.

Maj. Gen. Eric Olson, the No. 2 commander of U.S. troops in Afghanistan, told The Associated Press this month there was no alternative to releasing prisoners from Guantanamo.

"It's not going to be perfect, so it [the Ghaffar case] has not led to any soul-searching about the release program," Olson said.

Other former detainees have expressed a desire to rejoin the fight, be it against U.N. peacekeepers in Afghanistan, Americans in Iraq or Russian soldiers in Chechnya.

In Denmark, Slimane Hadj Abderrahmane, who was released from Guantanamo in February, said he would go to Chechnya to fight with rebels there against Russia.

"The Muslims are oppressed in Chechnya, and the Russians are carrying out terror against them," the 31-year-old Dane, who has an Algerian father, told Danish television in September.

Abderrahmane, who was never charged in Denmark upon his return, later backtracked.

After being questioned by Danish intelligence agents, he said he would stay in Denmark, hand over his passport and honor his pledge.

In Sweden, intelligence agents are monitoring Mehdi-Muhammed Ghezali, who was released in July after more than two years at the base.

Although Sweden's security police, SAPO, had no official comment, its agents have said Ghezali is not a threat.

Other former Guantanamo prisoners, including Yaser Esam Hamdi of Saudi Arabia, had their releases held up amid fears they would rejoin their comrades.

Hamdi, who was born in Louisiana, spent three years in solitary confinement, first at Guantanamo and then at a Navy brig in South Carolina after he was captured in Afghanistan in 2001.

He was returned to Saudi Arabia on October 11 after agreeing to forfeit his U.S. citizenship.

He also is required to stay in Saudi Arabia for five years, renounce terror and cannot travel to Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, Pakistan or Syria.

Additionally, Hamdi must notify Saudi officials if he becomes aware of "any planned or executed acts of terrorism."

It is likely that government officials there will monitor Hamdi as much as Ghezali and Abderrahmane have been in northern Europe.
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Post by Howedar »

Edi wrote:I know what I see, and all I see about Guantanamo is an article or two every couple of months, typically in news sources a large number of Americans often dismiss as being "liberal", and those articles do not create much public discussion in the venues I follow, and they do not cause a series of followup stories, or anything that can be described as extensive public discourse. The only reaction they get is a load of rabid wingnuts jumping in and throwing up a smokescreen about "terrorism blah blah blah, national security blah blah blah, not US soil blah blah blah, they have no rights blah blah blah" in a drumbeat that snuffs out any potential discussion before it can even get properly started.
That is not what I've seen here, although admittedly "here" is a college campus.
Howedar wrote:Anybody who has even cursorily followed the War on Terror and related news and has no idea what Camp X-ray in Gitmo is for has been burying their head in the sand for the past two years, and is too fucking stupid to live. After the Abu Ghraib debacle last spring, anybody who does not at least suspect that similar things are going on in Camp X-ray is too fucking stupid to live.
I completely agree. But frankly I'm not convinced that these too-stupid-to-live people are at all uncommon.
I've no problem with people who state outright that they are not following the news, or are not interested in politics. They have not bothered to find out about things, so the ignorance of such people is understandbale. My understanding and patient nature vanishes in an eyeblink if these kinds of people contradict me out of that willful ignorance and insist that they know better. Those who do not know about it are a non-issue, but I daresay most Americans know about Gitmo, it has been in the spotlight on the War on Terror often enough, and there have been enough references to it.
All the surveys that we always see show an astounding lack of knowledge among the American public. I'd like to see some numbers on how many Americans have a fucking clue about Guantanamo Bay.
Yet there is mostly resounding silence on the issue from the American public, and the only reasonable conclusion based on the available data is that a majority of Americans either
  • approve of even illegel methods being used there on what they see as terrorists
  • think there is nothing wrong with Gitmo and there are no fishy procedures being used there
  • think what's happening is wrong, but that national security must come first, so too bad for the Camp X-ray inmates
  • or simply don't give a fuck
The most likely answer is that the majority of Americans is a combination of all of the above, with those who clearly condemn the practices in Gitmo a rather small minority. The presence of such a number of apologists for the Bush administration's decisions on this issue in every place where there are Americans (even on this board, where Bush apologists are relatively scarcer than elsewhere) just reinforces that impression.
That's probably true, but as far as I know there was no evidence that there was anything going wrong at Gitmo until just the last week or so. If there's one thing the American people are good at, it's seeing what they want to see even in the face of hard facts (you know, the reason that a great many people still support the war in Iraq).
Howedar wrote:Yes, it's a popular activity of making fun of the stupidity of the majority of Americans who do not have an informed opinion and still go out spouting all kinds of nonsense, and I see nothing wrong with it. The Americans on this board do that at least as much as I do.
Absoutely. That's not what I'm saying. I'm talking about the fact that Americans cannot take action about something they do not know about.
You seem to have taken issue with my pointing out that the majority of Americans seem to approve of what's going on in Gitmo despite it being decidedly unconstitutional, but that's where the evidence points, and I'm not going to just stay silent about it. If me speaking out offends some people out of some misplaced sense of jingoism, I don't give a toss.
Please read what I wrote. I agree with this but it is not relevant to what I said.
The Camp X-ray issue is not something very obscure, and has been very public for a long time, so claiming that it is an "unknown issue" is dishonest at the very least. The biggest problem I've got with the American reaction to it is that every time anything related to policing US citizens is borught up anywhere, a veritable horde of Americans come out waving the constitution around like some sacred document and screaming themselves hoarse about how they are being oppressed and their rights violated, but I've seen quite a few of these same people happily support the unconstitutional policies being implemented in Gitmo and on anybody else who is NOT an American. As long as this keeps happening, all you can expect from foreigners is general scorn and ridicule toward the US whenever this topic of discussion keeps cropping up. Most of that will be directed at the US government and not the people, but people who support those government policies will also get the full brunt of it.
The existance of the Gitmo prison is not obscure, but to my knowledge there was no public evidence of torture or the like until recently.

The issue of unconstitutional imprisonment is something I'm quite furious about and is a topic for another day.
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Chris OFarrell
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

Would someone like to tell me exactly why anyone is surprised that people released from Camp X-Ray are turning up again fighting against the Americans?

FFS, if I had been taken away from my home for two years without legal representation, human rights, contact with the outside world even being CHARGED for Gods sake, then *I* would probably take up an AK-47 when I got home and start out for revenge. Given that the majority of the people in the Camp can't even be tied to terrorist activities, it makes it less and less likely they are going to look kindly upon the United States after taking away 2-3 years of their life.

No more then that, after destroying two years of their life...
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Post by Howedar »

Oh, but they signed a contract! :roll:

That's a goddamned good question, Chris. I have no idea.
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Post by Edi »

Congrats for dodging the question, Shep. What relevance has the fact that some few of those released people went back to fighting on the treatment of the other detainees? None, that's what. Your second article is utterly irrelevant to the issue being discussed, and is a complete red herring.

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Post by MKSheppard »

And now it's Ten with possibly many more being suspect.

Linka

Released Detainees Rejoining The Fight

By John Mintz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, October 22, 2004; Page A01

At least 10 detainees released from the Guantanamo Bay prison after U.S. officials concluded they posed little threat have been recaptured or killed fighting U.S. or coalition forces in Pakistan and Afghanistan, according to Pentagon officials.

One of the repatriated prisoners is still at large after taking leadership of a militant faction in Pakistan and aligning himself with al Qaeda, Pakistani officials said. In telephone calls to Pakistani reporters, he has bragged that he tricked his U.S. interrogators into believing he was someone else.

Another returned captive is an Afghan teenager who had spent two years at a special compound for young detainees at the military prison in Cuba, where he learned English, played sports and watched videos, informed sources said. U.S. officials believed they had persuaded him to abandon his life with the Taliban, but recently the young man, now 18, was recaptured with other Taliban fighters near Kandahar, Afghanistan, according to the sources, who asked for anonymity because they were discussing sensitive military information.

The cases demonstrate the difficulty Washington faces in deciding when alleged al Qaeda and Taliban detainees should be freed, amid pressure from foreign governments and human rights groups that have denounced U.S. officials for detaining the Guantanamo Bay captives for years without due-process rights, military officials said.

"Reports that former detainees have rejoined al Qaeda and the Taliban are evidence that these individuals are fanatical and particularly deceptive," said a Pentagon spokesman, Navy Lt. Cmdr. Flex Plexico. "From the beginning, we have recognized that there are inherent risks in determining when an individual detainee no longer had to be held at Guantanamo Bay."

The latest case emerged two weeks ago when two Chinese engineers working on a dam project in Pakistan's lawless Waziristan region were kidnapped. The commander of a tribal militant group, Abdullah Mehsud, 29, told reporters by satellite phone that his followers were responsible for the abductions.

Mehsud said he spent two years at Guantanamo Bay after being captured in 2002 in Afghanistan fighting alongside the Taliban. At the time he was carrying a false Afghan identity card, and while in custody he maintained the fiction that he was an innocent Afghan tribesman, he said. U.S. officials never realized he was a Pakistani with deep ties to militants in both countries, he added.

"I managed to keep my Pakistani identity hidden all these years," he told Gulf News in a recent interview. Since his return to Pakistan in March, Pakistani newspapers have written lengthy accounts of Mehsud's hair and looks, and the powerful appeal to militants of his fiery denunciations of the United States. "We would fight America and its allies," he said in one interview, "until the very end."

Last week Pakistani commandos freed one of the abducted Chinese engineers in a raid on a mud-walled compound in which five militants and the other hostage were killed.

The 10 or more returning militants are but a fraction of the 202 Guantanamo Bay detainees who have been returned to their homelands. Of that group, 146 were freed outright, and 56 were transferred to the custody of their home governments. Many of those men have since been freed.

Mark Jacobson, a former special assistant for detainee policy in the Defense Department who now teaches at Ohio State University, estimated that as many as 25 former detainees have taken up arms again. "You can't trust them when they say they're not terrorists," he said.

A U.S. defense official who helps oversee the prisoners added: "We could have said we'll accept no risks and refused to release anyone. But we've regarded that option as not humane, and not practical, and one that makes the U.S. government appear unreasonable."

Another former Guantanamo Bay prisoner was killed in southern Afghanistan last month after a shootout with Afghan forces. Maulvi Ghafar was a senior Taliban commander when he was captured in late 2001. No information has emerged about what he told interrogators in Guantanamo Bay, but in several cases U.S. officials have released detainees they knew to have served with the Taliban if they swore off violence in written agreements.

Returned to Afghanistan in February, Ghafar resumed his post as a top Taliban commander, and his forces ambushed and killed a U.N. engineer and three Afghan soldiers, Afghan officials said, according to news accounts.

A third released Taliban commander died in an ambush this summer. Mullah Shahzada, who apparently convinced U.S. officials that he had sworn off violence, rejoined the Taliban as soon as he was freed in mid-2003, sources with knowledge of his situation said.

The Afghan teenager who was recaptured recently had been kidnapped and possibly abused by the Taliban before he was apprehended the first time in 2001. After almost three years living with other young detainees in a seaside house at Guantanamo Bay, he was returned in January of this year to his country, where he was to be monitored by Afghan officials and private contractors. But the program failed and he fell back in with the Taliban, one source said.

"Someone dropped the ball in Afghanistan," the source said.

One former detainee who has not yet been able to take up arms is Slimane Hadj Abderrahmane, a Dane who also signed a promise to renounce violence. But in recent months he has told Danish media that he considers the written oath "toilet paper," stated his plans to join the war in Chechnya and said Denmark's prime minister is a valid target for terrorists.

Human rights activists said the cases of unrepentant militants do not undercut their assertions that the United States is violating the rights of Guantanamo Bay inmates.

"This doesn't alter the injustice, or support the administration's argument that setting aside their rights is justified," said Alistair Hodgett, a spokesman for Amnesty International.

*********************8

Yes, such nice people we're holding, including people saying that Denmark's
PM is a valid terrorist target. Really. I weep for them. Not.
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