Jane Fonda's/Hanoi Jane New Book and Apology

[Rogue 9]

Hm, guess a declaration of war would have been handy then ....

Since when is a declaration of war necessary for the status of Enemy of the State? We did not formally declare war with the Soviet Union at any time, yet those caught feeding them information, particularly about nuclear programs, were tried as traitors.

Could we make the lines any more blurry? She wasn't charged with anything because ... that's right, she didn't actually provide aid and comfort to the enemy, she just did a stupid thing and pissed off a lot of people (some, particularly serving servicemen, were very justifiably pissed).

Conservatives clung to Fonda as something they could bash in the 60's and 70's like a drowning man clinging to a life preserver .... because they were so wrong on so many things, they were desparate to be right about something. Wow, they were right, a young political activist said dumb things ... which got nobody killed. Now compare that to stupidity that gets thousands of your own guys and millions of this 'enemy' killed ..... and she takes her true place as an insignificant blip in the historical map.

It still just would have been absolutely hilarious if a Wild Weasel pilot had chosen that AAA site to hit at that point in time.

[Chmee]

Since when is a declaration of war necessary for the status of Enemy of the State? We did not formally declare war with the Soviet Union at any time, yet those caught feeding them information, particularly about nuclear programs, were tried as traitors.

Could we make the lines any more blurry? She wasn't charged with anything because ... that's right, she didn't actually provide aid and comfort to the enemy, she just did a stupid thing and pissed off a lot of people (some, particularly serving servicemen, were very justifiably pissed).

Conservatives clung to Fonda as something they could bash in the 60's and 70's like a drowning man clinging to a life preserver .... because they were so wrong on so many things, they were desparate to be right about something. Wow, they were right, a young political activist said dumb things ... which got nobody killed. Now compare that to stupidity that gets thousands of your own guys and millions of this 'enemy' killed ..... and she takes her true place as an insignificant blip in the historical map.

It still just would have been absolutely hilarious if a Wild Weasel pilot had chosen that AAA site to hit at that point in time.

I guess, if you find an American actually exercising their free speech rights to be worthy of a HARM up the wazoo ....

Somehow I suspect they chose a site for her in one of those areas that Johnson forbade our forces to go ....

[Spacebeard]

"Aid and comfort" in the sense the Constitution writers meant, means directly assisting enemy forces in attacking the United States. Jane Fonda was an idiot, but I don't think her actions sink to the level of treason.

I admit I'm not familiar with the exact details of what she did, but it seems to me that if actors who visit our troops as part of the US Open are giving aid and comfort to them, then actors who visit enemy troops are giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Obviously, it's not in the same league as selling secrets or handing them supplies, but any resentment towards her from Vietnam veterans is well-deserved.

I do think that the phrase "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" is yet another phrase which has become nearly meaningless through constant abuse by the right wing, much like "activist judge", but I don't think the case of Jane Fonda is an example of such abuse.

[HemlockGrey]

Yeah, I don't get the "Aid and comfort" thing. What exactly did she do, beside pose for photographs? Did she smuggle guns? Did she broker an arms deal with the Chinese? Ship in food and supplies? Eh?

[Knife]

I guess, if you find an American actually exercising their free speech rights to be worthy of a HARM up the wazoo ....

Somehow I suspect they chose a site for her in one of those areas that Johnson forbade our forces to go ....

Free speach doesn't protect you from stupidity of sitting on an enemy artillery piece being targeted by a warplane.

[Spacebeard]

Yeah, I don't get the "Aid and comfort" thing. What exactly did she do, beside pose for photographs? Did she smuggle guns? Did she broker an arms deal with the Chinese? Ship in food and supplies? Eh?

Well, like I said, if participating in the US Open is to be considered giving aid and comfort to our troops, then doing the same for the enemy can be considered giving aid and comfort to them. I say unless she actually changed the military situation somehow, she is not a "traitor", but she still deserves the resentment she gets from Vietnam veterans, since she was after all out there entertaining guys who were trying to kill them.

[Chmee]

I guess, if you find an American actually exercising their free speech rights to be worthy of a HARM up the wazoo ....

Somehow I suspect they chose a site for her in one of those areas that Johnson forbade our forces to go ....

Free speach doesn't protect you from stupidity of sitting on an enemy artillery piece being targeted by a warplane.

No argument there ... that would be like the Gulf War protesters who wanted to go act as human shields at Iraqi military buildings. Ok ... life is an intelligence test, and that ain't a passing grade ........

[Sam Or I]

Me being the facist right wing conservitive that I am think it was a treacherous act. Not in the same league as picking up arms against the troops.

It is totally ok to bash the military, bash the government, and even say the enemy is correct. Thats what freedom of speech is for, to critise the government. To go to the enemys government an produce propaganda for the enemy, through there government is stepping over the line IMHO. She was helping the N. Vietnam governments war effort.

Personally, I think her citizenship should have been revoked, and she should not have been able to step back on US soil.

But I also enjoy eating babies, and shooting kittens for fun, dang us right wingers.

[The Dark]

So what I'm saying is that those who get worked up over Jane Fonda are fascist-minded sore losers with limp little dicks.

I wasn't aware I was a fascist-minded sore loser. I just happen to dislike when citizens take trips to countries whose military is fighting ours and provide them with positive PR. I also don't like when they come back and say that POWs were not at all mistreated, and that anyone making that claim is a liar when there is physical evidence of torture. I just have this little thing about not liking dishonest people who end up accusing the victim of a crime.

[frigidmagi]

Jane Fonda was not exerising free speech. Protestors who marched in the streets were. Flag Burners were exerising their rights to free speech, even those knucklehead bastards who scream victory to the Iraq Resistence are.

Free Speech is not going to a nation in armed conflict with the forces of your nation and applauding and encouraging their attempts to maim and kill American troops. That is has close to the bleeding edge of treason has you get.

[Gandalf]

Jane Fonda was not exerising free speech. Protestors who marched in the streets were. Flag Burners were exerising their rights to free speech, even those knucklehead bastards who scream victory to the Iraq Resistence are.

Free Speech is not going to a nation in armed conflict with the forces of your nation and applauding and encouraging their attempts to maim and kill American troops. That is has close to the bleeding edge of treason has you get.

What's the difference between cheering on the NVA and cheering on the Iraqi Resistance?

All looks like free expression to me.

[Knife]

Jane Fonda was not exerising free speech. Protestors who marched in the streets were. Flag Burners were exerising their rights to free speech, even those knucklehead bastards who scream victory to the Iraq Resistence are.

Free Speech is not going to a nation in armed conflict with the forces of your nation and applauding and encouraging their attempts to maim and kill American troops. That is has close to the bleeding edge of treason has you get.

What's the difference between cheering on the NVA and cheering on the Iraqi Resistance?

All looks like free expression to me.

Not when you actually travel over there and let their media/propagandaist lead you around on tape to show the enemy troops to give em a boost in morale, and the other side, as a psyop's to destroy theirs.

She willingly let herself be used by the enemy for their best interests.

Hence, aid and comfort.

[Thirdfain]

So what I'm saying is that those who get worked up over Jane Fonda are fascist-minded sore losers with limp little dicks.

Holy shit, you are a massive asshole. Hey, Lindenburgh thought the Nazis were pretty cool. I guess if he had gone over to Germany and started producing propaganda videos for the Third Reich, he would have been far less of a traitor than that goddamned general Eisenhower, who's ridiculously unsafe "Overlord" plan lead to the deaths of 45,000 Americans on the beaches.

Jackass. You get the government your peers elected, and you live with it. You punish failure on that government's part come election day, or in the streets on a picket line. You don't move into the disgustingly oppressive Communist shithole we are at war with and make fucking propoganda videos for them.

[Chmee]

So what I'm saying is that those who get worked up over Jane Fonda are fascist-minded sore losers with limp little dicks.

Holy shit, you are a massive asshole. Hey, Lindenburgh thought the Nazis were pretty cool. I guess if he had gone over to Germany and started producing propaganda videos for the Third Reich, he would have been far less of a traitor than that goddamned general Eisenhower, who's ridiculously unsafe "Overlord" plan lead to the deaths of 45,000 Americans on the beaches.

Jackass. You get the government your peers elected, and you live with it. You punish failure on that government's part come election day, or in the streets on a picket line. You don't move into the disgustingly oppressive Communist shithole we are at war with and make fucking propoganda videos for them.

Lindenburgh? Is that the guy who flew solo across the Atlantic by filling his body with hydrogen, then blew up over New Jersey?

[Thirdfain]

So what I'm saying is that those who get worked up over Jane Fonda are fascist-minded sore losers with limp little dicks.

Holy shit, you are a massive asshole. Hey, Lindenburgh thought the Nazis were pretty cool. I guess if he had gone over to Germany and started producing propaganda videos for the Third Reich, he would have been far less of a traitor than that goddamned general Eisenhower, who's ridiculously unsafe "Overlord" plan lead to the deaths of 45,000 Americans on the beaches.

Jackass. You get the government your peers elected, and you live with it. You punish failure on that government's part come election day, or in the streets on a picket line. You don't move into the disgustingly oppressive Communist shithole we are at war with and make fucking propoganda videos for them.

Lindenburgh? Is that the guy who flew solo across the Atlantic by filling his body with hydrogen, then blew up over New Jersey?

Lindenburgh was a famous pilot. His baby was kidnapped. He was a raging anti-semetic dickhead, too.

[Chmee]

Holy shit, you are a massive asshole. Hey, Lindenburgh thought the Nazis were pretty cool. I guess if he had gone over to Germany and started producing propaganda videos for the Third Reich, he would have been far less of a traitor than that goddamned general Eisenhower, who's ridiculously unsafe "Overlord" plan lead to the deaths of 45,000 Americans on the beaches.

Jackass. You get the government your peers elected, and you live with it. You punish failure on that government's part come election day, or in the streets on a picket line. You don't move into the disgustingly oppressive Communist shithole we are at war with and make fucking propoganda videos for them.

Lindenburgh? Is that the guy who flew solo across the Atlantic by filling his body with hydrogen, then blew up over New Jersey?

Lindenburgh was a famous pilot. His baby was kidnapped. He was a raging anti-semetic dickhead, too.

[The Spartan]

Lindenburgh was a famous pilot. His baby was kidnapped. He was a raging anti-semetic dickhead, too.

You're thinking of Charles Lindsburgh. You seem to be crossing his name with Hindenburgh, the zeppelin that crashed in New Jersey. (Oh the humanity!)

[Chmee]

Charles .... Lindbergh .....

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/lindbergh/

[Spacebeard]

Lindenburgh was a famous pilot. His baby was kidnapped. He was a raging anti-semetic dickhead, too.

You're thinking of Charles Lindsburgh. You seem to be crossing his name with Hindenburgh, the zeppelin that crashed in New Jersey. (Oh the humanity!)

LINDBERGH! LINDBERGH! LINDBERGH!

And he did visit Nazi Germany to receive an award from Hitler if I recall correctly, but the important distinction is he did NOT do it during war-time.

[Joe]

Lindenburgh? Is that the guy who flew solo across the Atlantic by filling his body with hydrogen, then blew up over New Jersey?

*claps*

[Coyote]

Jane Fonda and Johnny Walker Lindh. Both provided aid to the enemy, even if non-technical or non-combat (if we believe Lindh's story that he never actually fired a weapon, uh-huh). But Fonda is a celebrity, so she gets a pass, but Lindh is a nobody, and goes to jail.

Actually, though, what would have happened if Fonda went to jail for her stupid stunt? Instant Martyr. Cries of "political prisoner of the evil US!" It would have made things worse, at the time.

[Spacebeard]

Jane Fonda and Johnny Walker Lindh. Both provided aid to the enemy, even if non-technical or non-combat (if we believe Lindh's story that he never actually fired a weapon, uh-huh). But Fonda is a celebrity, so she gets a pass, but Lindh is a nobody, and goes to jail. .

Even if we believe Lindh's story, he was still actually in the Taliban's army, wasn't he? That would be grounds for losing his citizenship even if it were an ally's army he had joined. It's definitely not in the same league as taking a trip to make propaganda films, even though both are treasonous.

[Thirdfain]

Charles .... Lindbergh .....

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/lindbergh/

Oh, man, I guess the fact I misspelled "Lindbergh" completely invalidates my point.

[HemlockGrey]

I was under the impression that citizenship could not be revoked, only voluntarily surrendered.

[Knife]

I was under the impression that citizenship could not be revoked, only voluntarily surrendered.

Damn that's a long url

TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part III > § 1481 Prev | Next

§ 1481. Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen; voluntary action; burden of proof; presumptions


Release date: 2004-02-11

(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
(A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or
(B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or
(4)
(A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or
(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State; or
(6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality in such form as may be prescribed by, and before such officer as may be designated by, the Attorney General, whenever the United States shall be in a state of war and the Attorney General shall approve such renunciation as not contrary to the interests of national defense; or
(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.
(b) Whenever the loss of United States nationality is put in issue in any action or proceeding commenced on or after September 26, 1961 under, or by virtue of, the provisions of this chapter or any other Act, the burden shall be upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred, to establish such claim by a preponderance of the evidence. Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this chapter or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily.

Bolded by me for parts that might apply to Walker. Also note the last part where it would be up to Walker to prove he didn't do one of those acts that would *concievably* kank his citizenship.