ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Elheru Aran
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Elheru Aran »

Stas Bush wrote:IS is the largest and most powerful and well-organized organization among the rebels.
Thanas wrote:ISIS are part of the Syrian rebels, or more accurately one faction out of many fighting over the carcass.
I was under the impression that it originated from Iraqi anti-American groups that shifted focus to the Iraqi government?

It's just that the majority of news I've seen on it focus upon its actions in Iraq... which I suppose are probably the latest and most visible of their actions, if they're originally from Syria, which would make sense because the American media has been absolutely shitty in their coverage of the Syrian rebellion.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Thanas wrote:ISIS are part of the Syrian rebels, or more accurately one faction out of many fighting over the carcass.
So when we support the Syrian rebels, have we been supporting the same organization that we're bombing in Iraq the whole time? Or has most of our aid gone to non-ISIS rebels?
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Most of your aid ended up in ISIS hands because they are damn good. They took over most Islamist groups and they also control most of rebel-controlled Syrian territory. If that can even be said, because IS are well on the way to become a proper state.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Borgholio wrote:
Thanas wrote:ISIS are part of the Syrian rebels, or more accurately one faction out of many fighting over the carcass.
So when we support the Syrian rebels, have we been supporting the same organization that we're bombing in Iraq the whole time? Or has most of our aid gone to non-ISIS rebels?
The USA tries to claim that all their aid goes to the secular rebel forces.

I am skeptical about that because:
a) The USA and France screwed the ssecular forces over when they made a deal with Assad which resulted in the execution of Ghaddafi (Basically Assad knew the secret cellphone number Ghaddafi used and he gave it over to the allies, allowing them to locate and kill Ghaddafi via proxy. In return Assad received assurances that there would be no military action against him. Lo and behold, nothing happened even after he used chemical weapons).
b) Nobody really knows where the guns went/who ended up with them, which is just as expected in a chaotic state like Syria.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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In civil war, unless you can control territory with your own troops, the aid you give will fall into the hands of the strongest player. Which IS has been for a while, and even moreso after other Islamists pledged allegiance to their cause.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Depends on what aid, how it was given and in what form. If these were fixed weapons I would agree, but RPGs and hand weapons are trivially easy to distribute and use/take with you before the other guys control it. And I doubt IS is the strongest player among the rebels, given the attention focused on them by the Syrian Army was far from the strongest.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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a) The USA and France screwed the ssecular forces over when they made a deal with Assad which resulted in the execution of Ghaddafi (Basically Assad knew the secret cellphone number Ghaddafi used and he gave it over to the allies, allowing them to locate and kill Ghaddafi via proxy. In return Assad received assurances that there would be no military action against him. Lo and behold, nothing happened).
Really?? A quick google search for me only revealed a few sites that reek of conspiracy theories...I was not able to find any hard reporting on it. If true, that would be an amazing victory for Assad. Just hand out a cell phone number and we let him crush the rebels in any way he chooses.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by K. A. Pital »

The IS made a deal with Assad, Thanas. That is why. It does not make them weak, it makes and actually made them a lot stronger.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Stas Bush wrote:The IS made a deal with Assad, Thanas. That is why. It does not make them weak, it makes and actually made them a lot stronger.
I haven't heard about it, what are the sources for that?
Borgholio wrote: Really?? A quick google search for me only revealed a few sites that reek of conspiracy theories...I was not able to find any hard reporting on it. If true, that would be an amazing victory for Assad. Just hand out a cell phone number and we let him crush the rebels in any way he chooses.
Upon rereading, the story sounds a bit fishy, but here is the telegraph reporting about it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... egime.html
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Sources quoted by Corriere della Sera said one reason for the French lead in the operation was that then President Nicolas Sarkozy wanted Gaddafi dead after the Libyan leader openly threatened to reveal details of the large amounts of money he had donated to Sarkozy for his 2007 election campaign.
That part kinda puts it over the top for me...makes it sound like a Hollywood movie plot.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Yeah. The other part is plenty believable but that part...I don't know it that would ever be impetus enough for the walking Napoleon complex. I mean, this is the guy who openly partied with billionaires who gave money but suddenly wants to kill some dictator with no credibility?

But the rest of the article is believable enough, especially considering how starkly the west dropped the "we got to do something" rhetoric.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Borgholio wrote:So the Syrian rebels are beheading people now? That's news to me...
Is it that surprising in the land that originated "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"?
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Borgholio »

Is it that surprising in the land that originated "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"?
I'm trying to avoid stereotyping too much here. :) Seriously though I had not heard about the rebels doing anything like that before, but the revelation that some of the rebels are actually ISIS fighters changes things.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Ralin wrote:I'm pretty sure that said right-wingers would view the pro-ISIS Europeans as some sort of Trojan horse fifth column Muslim infiltrators who are an outgrowth of the evil Muslim Arabs in general?
Although you would think that the members of a fifth column would stay in the country they occupy.

It is as if the Trojans opened the horse, and the Greek warriors came spilling out and ran out of the city to join their comrades fighting outside the walls.
Borgholio wrote:So the Syrian rebels are beheading people now? That's news to me...
While it's widely regarded as unjust and brutal in the developed world, it is a traditional way of executing people, and a lot less inhumane than many of the alternatives if done in a semi-proper-ish way.

Which of course doesn't mean the Syrian rebels are doing it in such a way.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Admittedly beheadings are more humane than what happened to Gaddafi, who they beat and then sodomized with a metal pole before killing him.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Thanas wrote:Admittedly beheadings are more humane than what happened to Gaddafi, who they beat and then sodomized with a metal pole before killing him.
That's...the first I've heard about that. Jesus... :wtf:
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Really? I didn't hear about him being sodomized by pole. Then again, I don't spend a lot of effort looking for details on executions.

Death-by-mob is a pretty ugly way to go.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Broomstick wrote:Really? I didn't hear about him being sodomized by pole. Then again, I don't spend a lot of effort looking for details on executions.

Death-by-mob is a pretty ugly way to go.
I am sure you have seen the execution video on the news, haven't you? It's all in there.

Not that he didn't have it coming.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Actually, no - I really do try to avoid watching "execution videos". I've seen people die in real life, I don't feel a need to add additional memories of that sort. I'm quite content to know about such things second or third hand.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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From I read he was stabbed in the anus by a bayonet. Not a pretty way to go.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Thanas wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:The IS made a deal with Assad, Thanas. That is why. It does not make them weak, it makes and actually made them a lot stronger.
I haven't heard about it, what are the sources for that?
Daily Telegraph wrote:Jabhat al-Nusra, and the even more extreme Islamic State of Iraq and al-Shams (ISIS), the two al-Qaeda affiliates operating in Syria, have both been financed by selling oil and gas from wells under their control to and through the regime, intelligence sources have told The Daily Telegraph
Basically, this has been going on for a while. However, it was misinterpreted by the Western sources as Assad playing the ISIS. In fact, it was the opposite. Being weakened, Assad agreed to a deal: the IS has free reign in Iraq (where he could not control the border anyway), and he keeps eyes closed to the fact oil is sold from IS-controlled wells. None of the other groups were able to make such agreements; and none of them, frankly, even matter enough. The press thought Assad was trying to destroy the secular opposition that way, but if one followed the events, it was largely dead by late 2013 anyway. In reality, Assad wanted to survive. That is why he desperately brokered deals with the West (who hate him, want him dead and he hates them) and the IS (who hate him, want him dead and he hates them).

The IS was strengthened in a variety of ways; when it got enough strength to control the Syrian territory, it brokered that deal, and that was preceding its massive expansion into Iraq.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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That doesn't really seem much to me, considering Assad has always focused on dealing with the other groups first. His strategy first seems to be to secure his access to the sea.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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In the early days of Syria Meat Grinder Festival I recall some reports on prisons being opened. He wants to portray himself as an anti-terrorist and that went too well. He could have had their throats slit inside the prison when things were going bad, but he released them for goodwill and to sow the seeds of war later on. Not sure if this is true or not. Didn't Saddam do this too? Or am I misremembering American invasion propaganda now?
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by K. A. Pital »

Well Thanas, there are basically government-controlled Southern Syria and uncontrolled North. And...
In November 2013, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights stated: "ISIS is the strongest group in Northern Syria—100%—and anyone who tells you anything else is lying."
The fact that the media were fucking blind to it is just a symptom - they closed their eyes to jihad before and will do it again. The narrative of brave rebels (not violent islamist cutthroats) versus evil govt is just much easier to sell.

Cosmicalstorm, you are mixing him and Qaddafi, the latter released key islamists from prisons right before the uprising.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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I'm sure the same thing happened in Syria. I'll go and see if I can source that claim. Somebody wrote a pretty in-depth piece on how Assads tactic from the start was to repaint the war into a struggle between terror and anti-terror (Assad) and as a part of that he released these people whom should have been tossed into dungeons or been shot. Here is else regarding IS from NYT
Saudis Must Stop Exporting Extremism ISIS Atrocities Started With Saudi Support for Salafi Hate
By ED HUSAINAUG. 22, 2014

ALONG with a billion Muslims across the globe, I turn to Mecca in Saudi Arabia every day to say my prayers. But when I visit the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, the resting place of the Prophet Muhammad, I am forced to leave overwhelmed with anguish at the power of extremism running amok in Islam’s birthplace. Non-Muslims are forbidden to enter this part of the kingdom, so there is no international scrutiny of the ideas and practices that affect the 13 million Muslims who visit each year.

Last week, Saudi Arabia donated $100 million to the United Nations to fund a counterterrorism agency. This was a welcome contribution, but last year, Saudi Arabia rejected a rotating seat on the United Nations Security Council. This half-in, half-out posture of the Saudi kingdom is a reflection of its inner paralysis in dealing with Sunni Islamist radicalism: It wants to stop violence, but will not address the Salafism that helps justify it.

Let’s be clear: Al Qaeda, the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, Boko Haram, the Shabab and others are all violent Sunni Salafi groupings. For five decades, Saudi Arabia has been the official sponsor of Sunni Salafism across the globe.

Most Sunni Muslims around the world, approximately 90 percent of the Muslim population, are not Salafis. Salafism is seen as too rigid, too literalist, too detached from mainstream Islam. While Shiite and other denominations account for 10 percent of the total, Salafi adherents and other fundamentalists represent 3 percent of the world’s Muslims.

Unlike a majority of Sunnis, Salafis are evangelicals who wish to convert Muslims and others to their “purer” form of Islam — unpolluted, as they see it, by modernity. In this effort, they have been lavishly supported by the Saudi government, which has appointed emissaries to its embassies in Muslim countries who proselytize for Salafism. The kingdom also grants compliant imams V.I.P. access for the annual hajj, and bankrolls ultraconservative Islamic organizations like the Muslim World League and World Assembly of Muslim Youth.

After 9/11, under American pressure, much of this global financial support dried up, but the bastion of Salafism remains strong in the kingdom, enforcing the hard-line application of outdated Shariah punishments long abandoned by a majority of Muslims. Just since Aug. 4, 19 people have been beheaded in Saudi Arabia, nearly half for nonviolent crimes.

We are rightly outraged at the beheading of James Foley by Islamist militants, and by ISIS’ other atrocities, but we overlook the public executions by beheading permitted by Saudi Arabia. By licensing such barbarity, the kingdom normalizes and indirectly encourages such punishments elsewhere. When the country that does so is the birthplace of Islam, that message resonates.

I lived in Saudi Arabia’s most liberal city, Jidda, in 2005. That year, in an effort to open closed Saudi Salafi minds, King Abdullah supported dialogue with people of other religions. In my mosque, the cleric used his Friday Prayer sermon to prohibit such dialogue on grounds that it put Islam on a par with “false religions.” It was a slippery slope to freedom, democracy and gender equality, he argued — corrupt practices of the infidel West.

This tension between the king and Salafi clerics is at the heart of Saudi Arabia’s inability to reform. The king is a modernizer, but he and his advisers do not wish to disturb the 270-year-old tribal pact between the House of Saud and the founder of Wahhabism (an austere form of Islam close to Salafism). That 1744 desert treaty must now be nullified.

The influence that clerics wield is unrivaled. Even Saudis’ Twitter heroes are religious figures: An extremist cleric like Muhammad al-Arifi, who was banned last year from the European Union for advocating wife-beating and hatred of Jews, commands a following of 9. 4 million. The kingdom is also patrolled by a religious police force that enforces the veil for women, prohibits young lovers from meeting and ensures that shops do not display “indecent” magazine covers. In the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, the religious police beat women with sticks if they stray into male-only areas, or if their dress is considered immodest by Salafi standards. This is not an Islam that the Prophet Muhammad would recognize.

Salafi intolerance has led to the destruction of Islamic heritage in Mecca and Medina. If ISIS is detonating shrines, it learned to do so from the precedent set in 1925 by the House of Saud with the Wahhabi-inspired demolition of 1,400-year-old tombs in the Jannat Al Baqi cemetery in Medina. In the last two years, violent Salafis have carried out similar sectarian vandalism, blowing up shrines from Libya to Pakistan, from Mali to Iraq. Fighters from Hezbollah have even entered Syria to protect holy sites.

Textbooks in Saudi Arabia’s schools and universities teach this brand of Islam. The University of Medina recruits students from around the world, trains them in the bigotry of Salafism and sends them to Muslim communities in places like the Balkans, Africa, Indonesia, Bangladesh and Egypt, where these Saudi-trained hard-liners work to eradicate the local, harmonious forms of Islam.

What is religious extremism but this aim to apply Shariah as state law? This is exactly what ISIS (Islamic State) is attempting do with its caliphate. Unless we challenge this un-Islamic, impractical and flawed concept of trying to govern by a rigid interpretation of Shariah, no amount of work by a United Nations agency can unravel Islamist terrorism.

Saudi Arabia created the monster that is Salafi terrorism. It cannot now outsource the slaying of this beast to the United Nations. It must address the theological and ideological roots of extremism at home, starting in Mecca and Medina. Reforming the home of Islam would be a giant step toward winning against extremism in this global battle of ideas.


Ed Husain is an adjunct senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and a senior adviser to the Tony Blair Faith Foundation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/opini ... .html?_r=0
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