Massive attacks against trains in Spain/Madrid

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-13 04:51pm

I have to say hitting politicians in the ballot box as a way to discourage further support for the US or any adventures in the Middle East is an inspired strategy and may very well work like a charm.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-13 04:55pm

TheDarkling wrote:I have to say hitting politicians in the ballot box as a way to discourage further support for the US or any adventures in the Middle East is an inspired strategy and may very well work like a charm.

Makes me wonder what would have happened differently if 9/11 had been three days before the Bush/Al Gore elections, or better yet before Clinton's second reelection.

Post by **Edi** » 2004-03-13 05:03pm

Looks like Aznar's government is unsuccessfully trying to keep inconvenient information suppressed just before the elections. After all, they went to war against the wishes of 75+% of the Spanish population, and now they get hit with a retaliatory bombing. Won't look good on election day, i.e. tomorrow...

Edi

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-13 05:12pm

Edi wrote:Looks like Aznar's government is unsuccessfully trying to keep inconvenient information suppressed just before the elections. After all, they went to war against the wishes of 75+% of the Spanish population, and now they get hit with a retaliatory bombing. Won't look good on election day, i.e. tomorrow...

Edi

If that is indeed the case, then they're fucking morons to think it wouldn't backlash. There's no way of keeping this stuff a secret in countries like ours. And with elections one, two days ahead, anything else than absolute transparence is political suicide.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-03-13 05:21pm

I would think that if terrorists are attacking Spain for supporting the US, that would galvanize more people against terrorist acts.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-13 05:25pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I would think that if terrorists are attacking Spain for supporting the US, that would galvanize more people against terrorist acts.

Indeed it would however fighitng terorrism and being the US' henchman are not the same thing, this would seem to be an attack based upon the latter and designed to discourage such action in the future.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-13 05:26pm

Colonel Olrik wrote: If that is indeed the case, then they're fucking morons to think it wouldn't backlash. There's no way of keeping this stuff a secret in countries like ours. And with elections one, two days ahead, anything else than absolute transparence is political suicide.

They need only keep it secret for a couple of days, which really isn't that hard to do.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-03-13 05:29pm

TheDarkling wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:I would think that if terrorists are attacking Spain for supporting the US, that would galvanize more people against terrorist acts.
Indeed it would however fighitng terorrism and being the US' henchman are not the same thing, this would seem to be an attack based upon the latter and designed to discourage such action in the future.

So, the terrorists threaten Spain with a big 'or else' and they fall over?

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-13 05:34pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote: So, the terrorists threaten Spain with a big 'or else' and they fall over?

The problem is that the large majority of the spanish population was against spanish support of the invasion of Iraq (as well as the british population, portuguese and the rest of the EU). The government went against the majority wishes. So any negative consequences of that support will be much more difficult to digest.

If Iraq hadn't happened, and this had been after 9/11 and another random attack against the west, the feelings would be a lot different.

edit: wohoo! I just read it in a portuguese news agency! During the Euro 2004, we will have our F16 constantly in the air around the major cities and football standiums! I think this is a first!

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-13 05:41pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote: So, the terrorists threaten Spain with a big 'or else' and they fall over?

The terrorists kill Spaniards and the Spanish decide that possible benefits from pleasing the US are outweighed by the extra attention that they will gain from terrorists.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-13 05:45pm

TheDarkling wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote: So, the terrorists threaten Spain with a big 'or else' and they fall over?
The terrorists kill Spaniards and the Spanish decide that possible benefits from pleasing the US are outweighed by the extra attention that they will gain from terrorists.

I would say that given its past, Spain was already a target. Didn't Turkey refuse to let the US use its airbases during Iraq, and get bombed anyway?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-03-13 05:57pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
So, the terrorists threaten Spain with a big 'or else' and they fall over?

Yes, it's the wonderful appeasement mentality, and the only way terrorists can win.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-03-13 06:03pm

TheDarkling wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote: So, the terrorists threaten Spain with a big 'or else' and they fall over?
The terrorists kill Spaniards and the Spanish decide that possible benefits from pleasing the US are outweighed by the extra attention that they will gain from terrorists.

That's giving the terrorists exactly what they want. I understand what Olrik is saying, about Spain not wanting any part of Iraq, that's news to me. But, if we had quit WWII after Pearl Harbor, that would have been exactly what Japan wanted.

This attack cannot be answered by capitulation, or cities like Munich or Rome or Tokyo will suffer similar results. After every attack, those responsible must be found and punished along with everyone who assisted them, or they will think they can win.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-13 06:18pm

One thing these terrorists are not looking for - if you take them at face value - is concessions. That will just embolden them.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-13 06:35pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
That's giving the terrorists exactly what they want. I understand what Olrik is saying, about Spain not wanting any part of Iraq, that's news to me. But, if we had quit WWII after Pearl Harbor, that would have been exactly what Japan wanted.

Indeed it would have however I fail to see the commonality, the US had to protect vital interests whereas Spain is simply having its cost benefit analysis adjusted.

This attack cannot be answered by capitulation, or cities like Munich or Rome or Tokyo will suffer similar results. After every attack, those responsible must be found and punished along with everyone who assisted them, or they will think they can win.

Again I don't disagree however the point of this bombing is to make cooperation with the US have an automatic downside so that nations won't cooperate with the US just so they are in the US' good graces.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-13 06:43pm

I would say that given its past, Spain was already a target. Didn't Turkey refuse to let the US use its airbases during Iraq, and get bombed anyway?

Of course it's still a target, Tragedy of Andalusia and all that. Spain was referred to as the "heart of Crusader Europe" in the letter found implicating al-Qaeda, indicating that these terrorists are angry over more than just Iraq.

In addition to Turkey, Saudi Arabia has also been attacked a number of times. And they give several billion dollars a year to terrorists.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-13 06:52pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I would think that if terrorists are attacking Spain for supporting the US, that would galvanize more people against terrorist acts.

Everyone already despises terrorist acts. What exactly do you expect them to do?

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-13 06:53pm

Joe wrote: In addition to Turkey, Saudi Arabia has also been attacked a number of times. And they give several billion dollars a year to terrorists.

Exactly. Al Qaeda will attack anyone who doesn't conform to their view of Islam. While Iraq may have increased Spain's risk, I don't think its by too much.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2004-03-13 06:53pm

Sharp-kun wrote:I would say that given its past, Spain was already a target. Didn't Turkey refuse to let the US use its airbases during Iraq, and get bombed anyway?

It did, but keep in mind that Turkey is a secular Islamic country with aspirations to become EU member. Their official policy doesn't jibe well with the way how al-Qaeda terrorists perceive things.

Those bomb attacks in November were also made against primarily British targets: the British consulate and the HSBC bank headquarters.

Well, I'm a bit late with this, but my condolences also . . .

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-13 06:54pm

Joe wrote:One thing these terrorists are not looking for - if you take them at face value - is concessions. That will just embolden them.

Yes, the current strategy of invading Iraq is proving far more effective in suppressing them

An international action should be taken based on whether it is justified or unjustified. The question of whether it happens to mesh with terrorist desires should be ignored either way.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-13 06:56pm

Take it more seriously? Pursue actions against it with increased intensity? I hate to be cynical, but you're going to be much more concerned about stopping terrorism if it's your countrymen's body parts lying on the sidewalk.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-13 06:59pm

Joe wrote:Take it more seriously?

Show how people do not take terrorism seriously. I was unaware of a jocular or apathetic attitude toward terrorist bombings.

Pursue actions against it with increased intensity?

Such as ...?

I hate to be cynical, but you're going to be much more concerned about stopping terrorism if it's your countrymen's body parts lying on the sidewalk.

Since Europe has suffered much more terrorism than America over the past few decades and yet does not rush to endorse the same supposedly anti-terror measures the US does (eg- invading Iraq), I find your conclusion questionable.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-13 07:06pm

Darth Wong wrote: Since Europe has suffered much more terrorism than America over the past few decades and yet does not rush to endorse the same supposedly anti-terror measures the US does (eg- invading Iraq), I find your conclusion questionable.

No he has a point, how much does Poland care about Corsican separatists?
How much did the US care that Boston was a centre of funding for the IRA who were carrying out terrorism in the UK (including trying to assassinate our Prime Minister)?

Sure Europeans tend to cooperate on these sorts of things (you scratch our backs etc) but the US was more than happy to ignore terrorism that didn't effect their countrymen directly.

The Aliens · Post by **The Aliens** » 2004-03-13 07:06pm

CNN.com wrote:MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- Spanish authorities detained five people Saturday they say are linked to a prepaid telephone card found with an undetonated bomb hours after Thursday's devastating terror attack on commuter trains in Madrid, the Spanish interior minister said.

Thursday's 10 bomb attacks on commuter trains killed 200 people and wounded more than 1,500, Interior Minister Ángel Acebes said.

"Early this afternoon, the National Police have detained five people," Acebes told reporters in a nationally televised news conference.

Three of those detained are Moroccan, Acebes said, and two are Indian.

Two Spaniards of Indian origin were questioned but not expected to be arrested, Acebes said.

The backpack containing the phone card and bomb was found on a train after Thursday's attacks and detonated by police.

The backpack also held the explosive ECO; metal pieces intended to multiply a bomb's destructive effect, a detonator and a mobile telephone, the Spanish newspaper El Mundo reported.

The news came on the eve of national elections, as thousands of demonstrators gathered at the headquarters of the ruling political party. The protesters were accusing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar of covering up the investigation of the terrorist attacks.

The demonstrators accuse the Popular Party of covering up evidence linking Islamic extremists, possibly even al Qaeda, to the attacks.

Acebes initially said that authorities believed the Basque separatist group ETA was most likely to blame. Later, he said they were considering that an Islamic terrorist group was involved.

"The investigation is advancing on both tracks," Acebes said.

A banner referring to the government as liars stretched above hundreds of signs bearing the single word "Paz," Spanish for peace.

The minister also said that investigators have not ruled out collaboration between ETA and another group.

Popular Party leader Mariano Rajoy addressed the crowd soon after it was announced that five people were being questioned.

Aznar, who is not seeking a third term, has chosen former Interior Minister Mariano Rajoy to succeed him.

Aznar's Popular Party is a favorite to win.

Rajoy asked citizens to stay home and avoid political rallies Saturday.

Political campaigns typically are quiet the day before Spanish elections to allow for a day of reflection.

However, the bombings have brought thousands of peace demonstrators to the streets.

Meanwhile, funerals started Saturday, a day after millions of Spaniards answered the government's call for demonstrations against the violence.

Saturday morning, 266 people were still hospitalized -- 17 in critical condition and 41 more in very serious condition -- Acebes said, adding that 31 people from 12 nations were wounded.

Acebes said investigators found no evidence of suicide bombers, and emphatically predicted arrests while offering no further information.

Several Basque media outlets reported Friday that they had received phone calls from people denying responsibility for the attacks on behalf of ETA. The United States and the European Union consider ETA a terrorist group.

But Acebes said Friday that ETA, which has waged a 36-year terrorist war for a separate homeland, had to be the "main line of investigation."

"Nobody has any doubt that ETA wanted to attack before the general elections," Acebes said in a news conference before he joined 11 million Spaniards in a country-wide demonstration against terrorist violence.

Political leaders in the Basque region in the north of Spain said they feared the attacks -- and the association of ETA with them -- would give the Popular Party further advantage and that a political backlash could follow the elections.

The private Spanish radio station, Cadena SER -- which has connections to the opposition Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE) -- reported Saturday that sources in the Spanish intelligence agency said they were "99 percent sure" Thursday's attacks were carried out by Islamic extremists who probably fled the country immediately afterward.

Ten bombs exploded on four trains in three stations.
There was no immediate response from the government -- but the PSOE, which has pledged to bring Spanish troops back from Iraq if they win Sunday -- would benefit if al Qaeda or another Islamic group is responsible.

Acebes pointed out that Spanish authorities last month stopped a van carrying 500 kilograms of explosives on its way to Madrid and in December thwarted a similar attack involving multiple bombs that were to go off simultaneously on the commuter train system.

Aznar, who joined other senior officials outside the presidential palace to launch the three-day period of mourning, said he had set aside $171.2 million (140 million euros) for the families of victims.

The government's response to the tragedy was overshadowed, however, by the outpouring of grief and anger in the capital by about 2.3 million people -- nearly half of its 5 million population -- on a cold, wet Friday night.

Across the country, government officials estimated one in four Spaniards -- more than 11 million in a nation of 42 million -- took part in demonstrations. One such demonstration took place in Bilbao, the largest city of Spain's Basque region.

Makeshift memorials cropped up at the three train stations, and Spanish flags across the country were adorned with black ribbons.

The Madrid bombings were the second deadliest in Europe since World War II. Only the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988, killed more people than Thursday's attacks. The Lockerbie bombing killed 259 people on the plane and 11 on the ground.

Got 'em.

The Aliens · Post by **The Aliens** » 2004-03-13 07:10pm

Crap, this is old news. Delete both that post and this one, please.