Anonymous vs Scientology!

[Flagg]

So the German government, which is closely tied with Christian churches, is determining which religions are "democratic" and which are "undemocratic"? And you view this as a positive thing?

[D.Turtle]

So the German government, which is closely tied with Christian churches, is determining which religions are "democratic" and which are "undemocratic"? And you view this as a positive thing?

Well, why don't you look at the official report about Scientology and judge for yourself if its goals are compatible with a democratic society? They even give the sources of their quotes, so you can check those yourself.

It is quite simple: the observation of Scientology has been judged as necessary and correct several times by different courts. Either acknowledge that, and admit that there are valid reasons for an observation of Scientology, or give reasons as to why they shouldn't be observed.

And yes, the german government and christian churches are officially more connected than they are, for example, in the US. If you look at the influence those christian churches have on legislation and government institutions, I would propose that they are a lot more influential in the US than in Germany.

[Flagg]

So the German government, which is closely tied with Christian churches, is determining which religions are "democratic" and which are "undemocratic"? And you view this as a positive thing?

Well, why don't you look at the official report about Scientology and judge for yourself if its goals are compatible with a democratic society? They even give the sources of their quotes, so you can check those yourself.

It is quite simple: the observation of Scientology has been judged as necessary and correct several times by different courts. Either acknowledge that, and admit that there are valid reasons for an observation of Scientology, or give reasons as to why they shouldn't be observed.

And yes, the german government and christian churches are officially more connected than they are, for example, in the US. If you look at the influence those christian churches have on legislation and government institutions, I would propose that they are a lot more influential in the US than in Germany.

The government doesn't collect taxes for churches in this country. There may be more influence due to voters being more religious, but the government is not officially affiliated with any churches. The fact that you think it's OK for the government to work on the behalf of the 2 most powerful religious organizations in your country to shut down the competition is frankly, hilarious.

[Skelron]

As I tried to explain to Skelron (before realizing that he's a bog-standard Catholic apologist and therefore a complete waste of time), the desire to control society is in fact quite common in Christian churches. The Catholic church successfully did that for many centuries. Even today, many Christians believe that the separation of church and state is wrong. The jealous, controlling aspects of Scientology are the biggest thing it has in COMMON with mainstream religion, rather than being the things which set it apart.

A Catholic Apologist, me, heh well thats shocking to me, as I havn't been to church since, my nieces Christening last year, oh wait I lie, I went at my friends wedding to a CoE church. I have my problems with the Church, quite a few of them. I'd be happy to state them, the issue over Condoms and Birth Control, the way they ran to hide the Pedophile Priests rather than root them out and smash them. The fact we don't have female Priests. The fact I feel most of the people attending Mass are rank hypocrites who feel an hour a week is all it takes.

Actuall forget it, nevermind, I conceed anything you want me to because fuck it, who cares.

[GuppyShark]

Having Christianity onside in the fight against Scientology is a damned good strategy.

The main difference between Scientology and a mainstream religion is that mainstream religions are open about their beliefs and practices. That may not have been historically the case but it is true now.

I think a provision on tax-free status that requires transparency would be prudent. The ability to sell their holy texts is one of the lynchpins of their money-making scheme.

If they wanted to 'save' people, that material would be available at cost or less.

[D.Turtle]

The government doesn't collect taxes for churches in this country. There may be more influence due to voters being more religious, but the government is not officially affiliated with any churches. The fact that you think it's OK for the government to work on the behalf of the 2 most powerful religious organizations in your country to shut down the competition is frankly, hilarious.

So, just to make sure I understand this correctly:
The fact that if you are a member of one of the two big churches, a membership you can end at any time of your choosing, that you then pay the 10% taxes/membership fee/tithes with your normal taxes and passes it on to the appropriate church, is worse than the huge influence the religious right has in the US government and society?

[Flagg]

The government doesn't collect taxes for churches in this country. There may be more influence due to voters being more religious, but the government is not officially affiliated with any churches. The fact that you think it's OK for the government to work on the behalf of the 2 most powerful religious organizations in your country to shut down the competition is frankly, hilarious.

So, just to make sure I understand this correctly:
The fact that if you are a member of one of the two big churches, a membership you can end at any time of your choosing, that you then pay the 10% taxes/membership fee/tithes with your normal taxes and passes it on to the appropriate church, is worse than the huge influence the religious right has in the US government and society?

What right or business does a government have in collecting tithes, you fucking imbecile? You don't see how that completely illegitimizes their ability to fairly judge a competing religion they're not in league with? Because that's what this boils down to, numbnuts. The fact that Germany collects tithes for it's Churches is fucking abhorrent.

And the effect the religious right has on society and politics in this country is of course harmful. Imagine how much fucking worse it would be if the government was officially in league with them.

[Spin Echo]

The government doesn't collect taxes for churches in this country. There may be more influence due to voters being more religious, but the government is not officially affiliated with any churches. The fact that you think it's OK for the government to work on the behalf of the 2 most powerful religious organizations in your country to shut down the competition is frankly, hilarious.

So, just to make sure I understand this correctly:
The fact that if you are a member of one of the two big churches, a membership you can end at any time of your choosing, that you then pay the 10% taxes/membership fee/tithes with your normal taxes and passes it on to the appropriate church, is worse than the huge influence the religious right has in the US government and society?

What right or business does a government have in collecting tithes, you fucking imbecile? You don't see how that completely illegitimizes their ability to fairly judge a competing religion they're not in league with? Because that's what this boils down to, numbnuts. The fact that Germany collects tithes for it's Churches is fucking abhorrent.

And the effect the religious right has on society and politics in this country is of course harmful. Imagine how much fucking worse it would be if the government was officially in league with them.

You seem to be confusing taking care of the church's bureaucracy with support for the church. It's really just a hangover from the old days where the monarchy dealt with the church finances. As for their right, it's within the Germany constitution. There is no separation of church and state in most of Europe.

If the church had any sort of clandestine influence over the government, they'd make it so that people weren't able to leave the state church (as hundreds of thousands of germans and other Europeans are doing, and not joining any other religion) not go after a small cult. As far as I've seen, the lack of separation of church and state allows the government to keep religion on a tight leash, not the other way around.

[Flagg]

So, just to make sure I understand this correctly:
The fact that if you are a member of one of the two big churches, a membership you can end at any time of your choosing, that you then pay the 10% taxes/membership fee/tithes with your normal taxes and passes it on to the appropriate church, is worse than the huge influence the religious right has in the US government and society?

What right or business does a government have in collecting tithes, you fucking imbecile? You don't see how that completely illegitimizes their ability to fairly judge a competing religion they're not in league with? Because that's what this boils down to, numbnuts. The fact that Germany collects tithes for it's Churches is fucking abhorrent.

And the effect the religious right has on society and politics in this country is of course harmful. Imagine how much fucking worse it would be if the government was officially in league with them.

You seem to be confusing taking care of the church's bureaucracy with support for the church. It's really just a hangover from the old days where the monarchy dealt with the church finances. As for their right, it's within the Germany constitution. There is no separation of church and state in most of Europe.

If the church had any sort of clandestine influence over the government, they'd make it so that people weren't able to leave the state church (as hundreds of thousands of germans and other Europeans are doing, and not joining any other religion) not go after a small cult. As far as I've seen, the lack of separation of church and state allows the government to keep religion on a tight leash, not the other way around.

So using tax dollars to pay for the churches bureaucracy doesn't put the government in league with the church?

And I already illustrated how much easier it is to go after Scientology due to its unpopularity. If the German government attempted to prevent people from leaving a church, I assume that it would be incredibly unpopular and a ton of politicians would be out of jobs. No, it's much easier to attack and outlaw the small but growing religion that is widely despised.

And you can do it all by declaring it "undemocratic" while using government money and infrastructure to collect tithes for a church which denies prominent roles to women and appoints its leaders by Papal fiat. Funny, that.

[Spin Echo]

So using tax dollars to pay for the churches bureaucracy doesn't put the government in league with the church?

And I already illustrated how much easier it is to go after Scientology due to its unpopularity. If the German government attempted to prevent people from leaving a church, I assume that it would be incredibly unpopular and a ton of politicians would be out of jobs. No, it's much easier to attack and outlaw the small but growing religion that is widely despised.

And you can do it all by declaring it "undemocratic" while using government money and infrastructure to collect tithes for a church which denies prominent roles to women and appoints its leaders by Papal fiat. Funny, that.

Uhm, it's not government money, nor is it actually a tax. It's sometimes refered to as that, but the church contributions are kept entirely separate from government taxes.

Do you seriously think Scientology even registers as a blip of the concerns in the Catholic Church? Apathy is far, far greater a problem.

Funny that, the Norwegian government told the state church that they had to allow gays and women in the clergy and they didn't like it, but they went along. Because God has never fired a bishop, but the King certainly has.

[Flagg]

So using tax dollars to pay for the churches bureaucracy doesn't put the government in league with the church?

And I already illustrated how much easier it is to go after Scientology due to its unpopularity. If the German government attempted to prevent people from leaving a church, I assume that it would be incredibly unpopular and a ton of politicians would be out of jobs. No, it's much easier to attack and outlaw the small but growing religion that is widely despised.

And you can do it all by declaring it "undemocratic" while using government money and infrastructure to collect tithes for a church which denies prominent roles to women and appoints its leaders by Papal fiat. Funny, that.

Uhm, it's not government money, nor is it actually a tax. It's sometimes refered to as that, but the church contributions are kept entirely separate from government taxes.

So how does the government pay for the bureaucracy required to collect church tithes? Does it take it from those tithes or does it use taxpayer money? Is the Catholic Church in that country forced to appoint women as Bishops and Priests? Is it forced to conform itself to the laws and standards of Germany as a "democratic" organization or is it given a pass because it's been around longer and "that's just how it's always been"?

[Spin Echo]

So how does the government pay for the bureaucracy required to collect church tithes? Does it take it from those tithes or does it use taxpayer money? Is the Catholic Church in that country forced to appoint women as Bishops and Priests? Is it forced to conform itself to the laws and standards of Germany as a "democratic" organization or is it given a pass because it's been around longer and "that's just how it's always been"?

The collection fee is taken from the tithes, which is why some groups, for example the jewish community in Germany, choose to collect their own tithes.

I'm not sure about Germany, but the churches in Scandinavia are now slowly being forced to adhere to standard practices of the country (hence the fairly recent law about allowing women and gay clergy). There's currently talk of forcing the church to perform homosexual marriage, which obviously gets their panties in a twist.

[Flagg]

So how does the government pay for the bureaucracy required to collect church tithes? Does it take it from those tithes or does it use taxpayer money? Is the Catholic Church in that country forced to appoint women as Bishops and Priests? Is it forced to conform itself to the laws and standards of Germany as a "democratic" organization or is it given a pass because it's been around longer and "that's just how it's always been"?

The collection fee is taken from the tithes, which is why some groups, for example the jewish community in Germany, choose to collect their own tithes.

I'm not sure about Germany, but the churches in Scandinavia are now slowly being forced to adhere to standard practices of the country (hence the fairly recent law about allowing women and gay clergy). There's currently talk of forcing the church to perform homosexual marriage, which obviously gets their panties in a twist.

I have no problem if they're going after other religions for the same shit they go after Scientology for. I take issue with ignoring the major problems which would actually be a challenge to overcome, while attacking pissant organizations who are immensely unpopular.

I'm not a fan of a government collecting tithes no matter how voluntary it may be, but if they are using the money collected to pay for the system then I have less of a complaint with it.

[Spin Echo]

I have no problem if they're going after other religions for the same shit they go after Scientology for. I take issue with ignoring the major problems which would actually be a challenge to overcome, while attacking pissant organizations who are immensely unpopular.

I'm not a fan of a government collecting tithes no matter how voluntary it may be, but if they are using the money collected to pay for the system then I have less of a complaint with it.

I think why Scientology in Germany is getting labeled undemocratic is because the lack of transparency. The German government can't observe it's practices to see whether they fall in line of what are considered appropriate behaviour, for example if the church believes in female genital mutilation or not.

I'm not sure, but I imagine one advantage of having the government deal with the church finances is that it helps makes sure the money is going where it is supposed to, e.g. that money earmarked for charity gets used for charity as opposed to buying the leaders luxury yachts.

[Colonel Olrik]

So how does the government pay for the bureaucracy required to collect church tithes? Does it take it from those tithes or does it use taxpayer money? Is the Catholic Church in that country forced to appoint women as Bishops and Priests? Is it forced to conform itself to the laws and standards of Germany as a "democratic" organization or is it given a pass because it's been around longer and "that's just how it's always been"?

Why don't you do some research before showing your ignorance by repeating what you read in some trashy article or website?

[D.Turtle]

So how does the government pay for the bureaucracy required to collect church tithes? Does it take it from those tithes or does it use taxpayer money?

It keeps a small part of the Kirchensteuer (Church tax) for itself to pay for the bureaucracy required (2.0-4.5% of the Church tax).

Is the Catholic Church in that country forced to appoint women as Bishops and Priests? Is it forced to conform itself to the laws and standards of Germany as a "democratic" organization or is it given a pass because it's been around longer and "that's just how it's always been"?

The state does not interfere in the inner workings of a religion - as long as they do not support actions that are illegal (which would include actions that try to overthrow/change the democratic principles).

The fact that Scientology is not recognized as a religious organization, the fact that Scientology is being observed by the Verfassungsschutz has nothing to do with religious discrimination. It has everything to do with Germany being understandably more adamant about being careful with any and all organizations that try to change the fundamental democratic principle. That is the reason that Scientology is being observed.

I posted a link above, hell here it is again, of the report of the Verfassungsschutz from 2005. Why don't you look at that and then give some reasons that the things listed there as being counter to the fundamental democratic principles aren't valid.

[Spin Echo]

The state does not interfere in the inner workings of a religion - as long as they do not support actions that are illegal (which would include actions that try to overthrow/change the democratic principles).

Oh yeah, I should have been more specific. I was refering to countries with a state religion. Some of my more general arguments and the particular case for Germany became a little muddled

[Thanas]

What is the bolded part then. If it is the same country, how is that not equating the Federal Republic of Germany with the thrid reich?

It is the same country you fucking idiot. Largely made up of the same fucking people. Or do you think everyone gets a moral pass once the government changes?

And how the fuck do you somehow arrive at the conclusion that the current government is like the Nazis?

Again, show that the germany of today is comparable to the third reich, or shut the fuck up with regards to equating the two.

You are acting worse than someone equating the Russia of Putin to the USSR under Stalin.

And are you going to tell me that raising a child as a Christian or a Jew is not using psychological conditioning? The difference here is that you actually have to be somewhat willing to be a Scientologist to even get to the brainwashing stage, unlike innocent children who have no choice in the matter whatsoever.

Again, read the documents provded in the thread, then show some evidence to counter those. In cased you missed the links:

The scientology task force from the interior ministry of the free city of Hamburg

Report of the Verfassungsschutz, originally posted by D.Turtle.

[Flagg]

What is the bolded part then. If it is the same country, how is that not equating the Federal Republic of Germany with the thrid reich?

It is the same country you fucking idiot. Largely made up of the same fucking people. Or do you think everyone gets a moral pass once the government changes?

And how the fuck do you somehow arrive at the conclusion that the current government is like the Nazis?

Again, show that the germany of today is comparable to the third reich, or shut the fuck up with regards to equating the two.

You are acting worse than someone equating the Russia of Putin to the USSR under Stalin.

I never did, you stupid asshole. I simply pointed out the irony of a country with a history of targeting and persecuting minority religions which are widely despised going after another minority religion which is widely despised. Nice strawman, though.

[Flagg]

So how does the government pay for the bureaucracy required to collect church tithes? Does it take it from those tithes or does it use taxpayer money?

It keeps a small part of the Kirchensteuer (Church tax) for itself to pay for the bureaucracy required (2.0-4.5% of the Church tax).

Is the Catholic Church in that country forced to appoint women as Bishops and Priests? Is it forced to conform itself to the laws and standards of Germany as a "democratic" organization or is it given a pass because it's been around longer and "that's just how it's always been"?

The state does not interfere in the inner workings of a religion - as long as they do not support actions that are illegal (which would include actions that try to overthrow/change the democratic principles).

The fact that Scientology is not recognized as a religious organization, the fact that Scientology is being observed by the Verfassungsschutz has nothing to do with religious discrimination. It has everything to do with Germany being understandably more adamant about being careful with any and all organizations that try to change the fundamental democratic principle. That is the reason that Scientology is being observed.

I posted a link above, hell here it is again, of the report of the Verfassungsschutz from 2005. Why don't you look at that and then give some reasons that the things listed there as being counter to the fundamental democratic principles aren't valid.

I would submit that barring women from positions of power within the Catholic Church is counter to fundamental democratic principles. Then I would totally hold my breath waiting for a country that collects its tithes for it to go after that particular church for being "undemocratic".

[Flagg]

So how does the government pay for the bureaucracy required to collect church tithes? Does it take it from those tithes or does it use taxpayer money? Is the Catholic Church in that country forced to appoint women as Bishops and Priests? Is it forced to conform itself to the laws and standards of Germany as a "democratic" organization or is it given a pass because it's been around longer and "that's just how it's always been"?

Why don't you do some research before showing your ignorance by repeating what you read in some trashy article or website?

I'm repeating what I've seen in this thread. Or does the German government force the Catholic Church to appoint women as Bishops and Priests? Or do they just allow them to operate as they choose, while attacking minority religions that they don't like?

[Colonel Olrik]

I never did, you stupid asshole. I simply pointed out the irony of a country with a history of targeting and persecuting minority religions which are widely despised going after another minority religion which is widely despised. Nice strawman, though.

Your words are there for everybody to see, retard:

It's the same country you fucking idiot. Largely made up of the same fucking people. Or do you think everyone gets a moral pass once the government changes?

You're very much saying that the German people nowadays are like the ones in Nazi times, which is offensive and a ridiculous thing to say for anyone with a minimum of knowledge about present day Germany.

Now, will you apologize to all Germans here or will I have to HOS the thead?

[Flagg]

I never did, you stupid asshole. I simply pointed out the irony of a country with a history of targeting and persecuting minority religions which are widely despised going after another minority religion which is widely despised. Nice strawman, though.

Your words are there for everybody to see, retard:

It's the same country you fucking idiot. Largely made up of the same fucking people. Or do you think everyone gets a moral pass once the government changes?

You're very much saying that the German people nowadays are like the ones in Nazi times, which is offensive and a ridiculous thing to say for anyone with a minimum of knowledge about present day Germany.

Now, will you apologize to all Germans here or will I have to HOS the thead?

Conceded and apologized for. I should have been more careful in my choice of phrasing.

[Darth Wong]

Who gives a fuck about the specifics of the German government, and what the flying fuck does that have to do with the subject of this thread? How the hell did this tangent start, and why is it relevant? Is it the fact that the German government is persecuting scientologists? If so, I'd agree that this is pretty fucking hypocritical considering they have no problem with the same Christian churches which refused to excommunicate Hitler and which successfully promote various forms of group discrimination worldwide even today. But that specific German situation is of only fleeting relevance to the general issue of whether Scientology is really any worse than Christianity.

[D.Turtle]

I would submit that barring women from positions of power within the Catholic Church is counter to fundamental democratic principles. Then I would totally hold my breath waiting for a country that collects its tithes for it to go after that particular church for being "undemocratic".

First of all: Any and all recognized religious organizations in Germany have the same rights. Islamic groups, for example, have the same right as Christian churches.

In Germany you have the "Kirchliches Selbstbestimmungsrecht" (The right of self-determination of Churches). What this means is quite simply that the state does not influence the inner workings of a religious organization.

To take your example of women being barred from positions of power: Since this is part of the inner workings of a religious organization, the state is not allowed to influence (or force) a change in this. The fact that a church does not allow women to hold positions of power in their organization is in no way a threat to the democratic principles in Germany. If they would actively try to bar women from having positions of power in the state, or in other organizations, that might be different. Or in other words: A men's billiard club that only allows men to join is not a threat to society. A men's billiard club that actively tries to stop women from creating their own billiard club would be a threat.

However, this entire tangent is actually irrelevant to the topic of Scientology: It does not (or rather would not) make a difference if Scientology would be recognized as a religious organization, because they are being observed as an organization that wants to change, or rather remove, the fundamental democratic principles in Germany. This is separate from them being recognized as a religious organization.

As an example: The Links Partei, a party in the Bundestag (German Parliament) is under observation of the Verfassungsschutz, because there are elements in that party who want to change some of the core democratic principles. The fact that they are under observation is entirely separate from the fact that they are a recognized political party with a not insignificant number of seats in the German parliament (not to mention state parliaments).

The role of the Verfassungsschutz is to observe and report on such activities. Any reactions (for example banning a party) that result from their observations are totally separate from that.

Organizations that are under observation can, and have, for example, go to court to stop the observation. In the case of Scientology, the observation was deemed correct and necessary by several different courts.

Again, here is the report of the Verfassungsschutz from 2005. In it they (among others) report on the actions of Scientology that constitute a danger (or a oppostion) to the core democratic principles in Germany. Again I challenge you to look at that and then give some reasons that the things listed there as being counter to the fundamental democratic principles aren't valid.

Since you probably won't read it, here are some quotes:

The Cologne Administrative Court, too, expressly notes that
Scientology’s inhuman ideology is reflected in the fact that
“suppressive persons” or “oppressors”, i.e. “enemies of Scientology”,
should be removed by coercive means or, ideally, ruined. SO
considers such “enemies” to be “fair game” to be “deprived of their
property, injured by any means …, tricked, sued or lied to”.

Using sometimes aggressive language, the SO leadership tries to
unite the membership behind the idea of establishing a new
Scientologist society and to convince them of the necessity of the
organisation’s expansion policy.
“It is the motor of future actions: eliminate psychiatry in all its forms,
offer governments the solutions developed by L. Ron Hubbard … We
know every minute counts. And we intend to take out of the road
anything we have to take out of the road, no matter how big, to make
a civilization that can survive....”
(IMPACT, 110/ 2004, p. 43)
In this context, MISCAVIGE explicitly referred at an SO event to the
elimination of “suppressive persons”, also known as “SPs”:
“What we are addressing today is directly related to and follows from
our world-wide actions aimed at creating ideal orgs. This also means
that we are eliminating SPs not only as a kind of sport … we are
working for a new Civilisation shaped according to our aims, nothing
less …”

The SO is currently trying to indoctrinate their members through the
“How to Confront and Shatter Suppression” course (PTS/SP course).
This is one of the major courses offered by the German SO offices.
Members pay a “special price” of € 1,186.227 The course material
refers to people speaking out against the organisation as follows:
“We see no critic of Scientology who does not have a criminal
background. ...
Those who oppose us have crimes to conceal. ...
Never talk to a critic about Scientology. Talk only about his crimes…”
(Wie man Unterdrückung konfrontiert und zerschlägt (How to Confront
and Shatter Suppression, PTS/SP Course), Copenhagen, 2001, p. 78
et seq.) (translated from the German)