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Oberleutnant
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Post by Oberleutnant »

@ Marina

It's doubtful that we can change each others' opinions, but anyhow I think it should be stressed that despite Hitler's personal request, Finnish troops did not participate the siege of Leningrad, which would have completely cut off the city from their own troops. It's important to also understand that USA did not recognize Finland as a German ally and never declared a war, despite the fact that our soldiers fought side by side with Germans. There are good reasons why Stalin wasn't so keen to occupying Finland.

Like any other Finnish men, Finnish Jews fought on the front. Three of them were even awarded the German Iron Cross, but none accepted it, of course. During the Continuation War in 1942, Himmler himself came to visit Finland. During the visit, our military intelligence stole his briefcase and photographed the documents which included the names of all Finnish Jews. I wonder for what purposes they were there? :roll:

Later he asked from our goverment Finnish Jews to be sent to Germany. To this one of our "war criminals", Marshall Mannerheim replied: "Not even one single Jewish soldier will be taken from my army to be turned over to Germany. That cannot happen except over my dead body."

The deaths of those seven German who came here as emigrants only to be sent back to Germany were unfortunate, but still please don't fucking come here and say we directly helped in Holocaust.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Oberleutnant wrote:@ Marina

The deaths of those seven German who came here as emigrants only to be sent back to Germany were unfortunate, but still please don't fucking come here and say we directly helped in Holocaust.
I never said you directly helped the Holocaust. My main point was civilian deaths on the Eastern Front, where Germany waged a war that Count Tilly would have approved of.
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Post by MKSheppard »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: I never said you directly helped the Holocaust. My main point was civilian deaths on the Eastern Front, where Germany waged a war that Count Tilly would have approved of.
Then uncle fucking joe never should have invaded Finland in 1940. No finnish
Winter War, no Finnish alliance with germany to regain LOST territory.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

MKSheppard wrote: Then uncle fucking joe never should have invaded Finland in 1940. No finnish
Winter War, no Finnish alliance with germany to regain LOST territory.
And we should have split Germany up after WWI to keep WWII from happening. Or let them win for the same effect, depending on who you ask. You can spin the what-ifs backwards until you get to tribal groups throwing sticks and stones at each other.
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Post by Posbi »

Thank you for the link, Marina.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Posbi wrote:Thank you for the link, Marina.
You're quite welcome.
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Post by von Neufeld »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
MKSheppard wrote: Then uncle fucking joe never should have invaded Finland in 1940. No finnish
Winter War, no Finnish alliance with germany to regain LOST territory.
And we should have split Germany up after WWI to keep WWII from happening. Or let them win for the same effect, depending on who you ask. You can spin the what-ifs backwards until you get to tribal groups throwing sticks and stones at each other.
And you want war against Iraq and the Talibans? :roll: Think about those civilian death in Iraq and Afghanistan. :roll: Oh, I forgot they are fundies and not atheists. :idea:
I must say that I find your hypocrisy disturbing.
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Post by Zoink »

Regarding Finland being responsable for "soviet civilian" deaths:

Aren't we all forgetting that the soviets were an expansionist power, little better than Germany? Isn't that like saying the U.S. is responsable for German civilian deaths, when the responsability ulitimately falls on those who started the war (ie. Hitler).

Russia invaded Poland along with Hitler in 1939... and if my facts are straight, they did a similar action against Finland. So the allies supported Russia (who are responable for million of civilian deaths during and post war) because they had a common enemy, and Finland allied with Germany temporarily because they had similar goals, ie defeat Russia.

Ultimately: Russian civilian deaths on the eastern front, caused by Finland's reclaiming lost territory, is ultimately the fault of Russian actions.... unless it is shown the Finland acted in a way against the conventions of war.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

von Neufeld wrote: And you want war against Iraq and the Talibans? :roll: Think about those civilian death in Iraq and Afghanistan. :roll: Oh, I forgot they are fundies and not atheists. :idea:
I must say that I find your hypocrisy disturbing.
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Post by MKSheppard »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: And we should have split Germany up after WWI to keep WWII from happening. Or let them win for the same effect, depending on who you ask. You can spin the what-ifs backwards until you get to tribal groups throwing sticks and stones at each other.
:roll:

There was absolutely NO reason for the USSR to invade Finland in
the Winter War of 1940, except to satisfy Uncle Joe's paranoiac urges.
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Post by Posbi »

@Neufeld

Uhm, I have to defend the Duchess here: She never said it was okay to kill civilians. She actually brought the issue up in conunction with the German, or if you want so, general Axis atrocities committed against the civilian populace of their occupied territories. She doesn't dispute the fact that civilian die in an armed conflict, but the planned and committed genocide and forced deportations of WW2 are quite a bit different from that...
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Post by MKSheppard »

Posbi wrote:@Neufeld
but the planned and committed genocide and forced deportations of WW2 are quite a bit different from that...
Hey, forced deportations!

How about Uncle Joe sending everyone in Chechnya on a train to
SIBERIA during the War?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

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Post by Posbi »

Yes, and? I'm the last to dispute that fact, Mark.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Posbi wrote:Yes, and? I'm the last to dispute that fact, Mark.
Then why does your lover keep saying that the Nazis were something
"special" worthy of scorn, when Uncle Joe had them outdone easily
in the bodycount department?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

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Post by Posbi »

Ask her, not me. I'm no telepath and don't know *that* much of Marina's background, at least definately not enough to make a fair judgement on that sentiment of hers... :roll:
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Post by Axis Kast »

Just a little statement ...

These are debates, not character assassinations or personal feuds. I just saw - now some eight pages back after a debate on the Finnish people's role in the Holocaust (and I say this sarcastically, as a Jew) :roll: - Edi's commentary regarding my supposed "turning" on Marina. This is a debate, not a personal assault. Some of you people take this way too personally - and try to make it way too personal. The topic is serious, but keep in mind that you do no good by castigating somebody else.
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Post by Dahak »

Axis Kast wrote:Just a little statement ...

These are debates, not character assassinations or personal feuds. I just saw - now some eight pages back after a debate on the Finnish people's role in the Holocaust (and I say this sarcastically, as a Jew) :roll: - Edi's commentary regarding my supposed "turning" on Marina. This is a debate, not a personal assault. Some of you people take this way too personally - and try to make it way too personal. The topic is serious, but keep in mind that you do no good by castigating somebody else.
So when all your alleged arguments and "proof" went down in flames, you run to mommy and scream "They are all sooooo mean to meeee!"

Face it like a man.
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Post by Edi »

Posbi wrote:@Neufeld

Uhm, I have to defend the Duchess here: She never said it was okay to kill civilians. She actually brought the issue up in conunction with the German, or if you want so, general Axis atrocities committed against the civilian populace of their occupied territories. She doesn't dispute the fact that civilian die in an armed conflict, but the planned and committed genocide and forced deportations of WW2 are quite a bit different from that...
Which makes her comments on Finland a complete red herring since we didn't commit any of the atrocities, support them or approve of them in the first place and actually refused to take part when asked to do so.
Axis Kast wrote:Just a little statement ...

These are debates, not character assassinations or personal feuds. I just saw - now some eight pages back after a debate on the Finnish people's role in the Holocaust (and I say this sarcastically, as a Jew) - Edi's commentary regarding my supposed "turning" on Marina. This is a debate, not a personal assault. Some of you people take this way too personally - and try to make it way too personal. The topic is serious, but keep in mind that you do no good by castigating somebody else.
Yes, it is a debate, one where you slunk off after getting your ass thoroughly kicked. My comment on you two turning on each other was appropriate enough, because you argued the same side, and it was just hilarious to watch Marina tear you apart for your ignorance on certain issues and you arguing with her. You basically hold the same position, with most others opposed to various degrees, yet you treated each other as if being on opposite sides on several occasions.

I didn't take things all that personally until Marina said that she thought my country should have been subjected to oppression and suffering because of one slightly inflammatory comment from me that pushed her buttons, and then proceeded forward with an attempt to distort and misrepresent my country. If I'd done a similar twisting of pivotal and revered American history, the whole board would have gone up in flames.

Edi[/quote]
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote: It is not contemtable at all, the Finns were in a catch 22,and why should they not try to regain that which was stolen so shortly before? The Finns used the Gemans to get back their own, certainly, but then you will of course argue that those allied to the Soviet Union in a similar alliance of conveniance are just guilty as being part of Stalins Gulag system? and Stalins abhorrant treatment of POW's? or the massacre in the Katyn {sp?} forest?. So, do you condemn the USA, and Britain for helping the Soviets in ther own crimes?
Condie Rice retorted to a democratic senator in a debate over the current war where it was brought up, that we should have used the Berlin crisis of '49 to keep on going into Eastern Europe and liberate the peoples there. I agree with her. We had a moral obligation to do so and we failed them by holding back and letting Stalin deploy atomic weapons and strategic paralysis set in.
Rice, I suspect, lives in a fantasy world, If she belives that anyone wanted that at the time. Its all very well to say that about the past, what counts is that interpetation on the now and how it will effect the future.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Axis Kast wrote:Just a little statement ...

These are debates, not character assassinations or personal feuds. I just saw - now some eight pages back after a debate on the Finnish people's role in the Holocaust (and I say this sarcastically, as a Jew) :roll: - Edi's commentary regarding my supposed "turning" on Marina. This is a debate, not a personal assault. Some of you people take this way too personally - and try to make it way too personal. The topic is serious, but keep in mind that you do no good by castigating somebody else.
Ahh, now this is a moronic post if ever I saw one.
For example, If I find someone who support the mass murder of million and call them an immoral turd, thats somehow wrong? The retard part of your title fits like a glove.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"

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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Edi wrote: Yes, it is a debate, one where you slunk off after getting your ass thoroughly kicked. My comment on you two turning on each other was appropriate enough, because you argued the same side, and it was just hilarious to watch Marina tear you apart for your ignorance on certain issues and you arguing with her. You basically hold the same position, with most others opposed to various degrees, yet you treated each other as if being on opposite sides on several occasions.

I didn't take things all that personally until Marina said that she thought my country should have been subjected to oppression and suffering because of one slightly inflammatory comment from me that pushed her buttons, and then proceeded forward with an attempt to distort and misrepresent my country. If I'd done a similar twisting of pivotal and revered American history, the whole board would have gone up in flames.

Edi
You know, Edi, I want to offer my apology a second time, and just say that... Well, I had never actually intended to argue that point to begin with, and the entirety of the pages of this are filled with something I rather deeply regret; I concede the entire matter to you now, formally.

I'm not even sure what my original intent was. I'm sure I could go back, re-read it, and re-state it for clarity and with an explanation or whatever, but we'd probably just disagree and argue over that, especially with the damage done now, so I'm not going to bother, and I just intend to leave it at this.

As far as I'm concerned the last pages of this thread were a very ugly thing that disrespects the sacrifice of the Finnish people in keep their nation free from Stalinist occupation. Unfortunately, rather like street fighting, once engaged in these debates it becomes hard to entangle yourself - Rather the opposite, you get sucked further in.
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The Duchess of Zeon
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Rice, I suspect, lives in a fantasy world, If she belives that anyone wanted that at the time. Its all very well to say that about the past, what counts is that interpetation on the now and how it will effect the future.
I don't think she was saying we would have, or that others would have, just that we should have.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
Rice, I suspect, lives in a fantasy world, If she belives that anyone wanted that at the time. Its all very well to say that about the past, what counts is that interpetation on the now and how it will effect the future.
I don't think she was saying we would have, or that others would have, just that we should have.
Given what we know now, I would have preffered a Medertranian offensive to Overlord and take as much of eastern Europe befor the Sovs could get there, then deal with the remaining Germans. I honestly dont think that war against the Soviets was feisible in 1949, how ever desirable.
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Post by Edi »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: You know, Edi, I want to offer my apology a second time, and just say that... Well, I had never actually intended to argue that point to begin with, and the entirety of the pages of this are filled with something I rather deeply regret; I concede the entire matter to you now, formally.

I'm not even sure what my original intent was. I'm sure I could go back, re-read it, and re-state it for clarity and with an explanation or whatever, but we'd probably just disagree and argue over that, especially with the damage done now, so I'm not going to bother, and I just intend to leave it at this.

As far as I'm concerned the last pages of this thread were a very ugly thing that disrespects the sacrifice of the Finnish people in keep their nation free from Stalinist occupation. Unfortunately, rather like street fighting, once engaged in these debates it becomes hard to entangle yourself - Rather the opposite, you get sucked further in.
Hey, I'm okay with that, there isn't anything left to discuss with regard to Finland in this thread. I know how these debates can turn out and how hard it is to just let them go. I've no hard feelings as such, not as much as I would normally have anyway, because I did see what you were driving at, and had some things in history happened otherwise, you would have had your point and I'd be the one waving the white flag in this thread. Given your extensive knowledge of history, I was rather surprised at the direction this thing took. Well, given the hours at that time where you are located, it is, I think, safe to assume that sleep deprivation makes for some posts that don't make much sense the next day, no? I know it has happened to me...

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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Well, uhm, perhaps it can be explained, then. Here's your original post:
Aaaahh hahahahahahahahaaaaa!!!

This is priceless, I go away for the weekend and come back to see how both of our resident jingoists have had their arguments torn to shreds and then turning on each other in their feeding frenzy. And given how even the resident right-wing gun nut (sorry, Shep, but you are) has been liberally firing full-auto on both of them too, this is just absolutely hilarious!

I'll just add that if Israel were to do all that maximum retaliation against other countries, they'd be immediately censored by the rest of the world. It is in fact quite conceivable that much of the rest of the world would be of the opinion that it was time to isolate Israel and starve them to death, and that would be justified if Israel committed such genocide. At that point Holocaust II would be completely justified whereas the first one was utterly despicable.

Edi
When I responded to it I ended up arguing the exact same argument you made. Or at least I thought I did. IE: That it was morally acceptable to punish an entire people for a great crime they had committed.

You didn't catch the hypocrisy in this position and instead defended your nation by saying such a punishment wasn't necessary in Finland's case, rather decently, too.
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