The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by K. A. Pital »

D.Turtle wrote:All this theoretical argument about masks, etc misses the point: Masks are not a defining or even large part of the Occupy movement.
Sure they aren't. The majority is always maskless. However, it is nice to see people caring about identity protection for someone like me who has seen what the First World police apparatus is capable of. To make it perfectly clear with just one example: a person I know was involved in perfectly legal protests in a First World nation (not America), wasn't even arrested or detained for a single minute, and when that person returned back to Russia, a call from the FSB woke him up to the grotesque and surprising truth - the First World police forces kept tabs on him discovering where he studies, where he lives, etc., and immediately supplied all information on him to the Russian police and security apparatus. That was more than enough for me. Thank you, I'll keep my mask.
Simon wrote:Stas could probably quote The Iron Heel at more length than in his sig
No, that quote eats up the entire character limit. :lol:
Samuel wrote:I think a bigger problem than the government cracking down on you is your image getting up on the internet and employers not hiring you because you're anti-establishment. Something tells me the man does not like employing people who rage against the man.
That too.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Samuel »

Wow. It is like America's "we don't torture people policy" and then we had prisoners to foreigners who do torture. Er, hopefully not that literally.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Simon_Jester »

Stas Bush wrote:
Simon wrote:Stas could probably quote The Iron Heel at more length than in his sig
No, that quote eats up the entire character limit. :lol:
The passage you originally quoted is a very effective statement of the fear- i.e. that economic oligarchs who do not find democracy useful will have the power to discard it, unless they are stopped from doing so by force. You include a chunk of the passage in your sig, but when one does not know the context the impact is somewhat reduced by the parts you elide.

Of course, it has to fit in your sig in the first place, so there are limits, but I had meant the idea of a long quote in a post itself. And this is not something I'm asking you to do; I just mentioned it in passing as an illustration of the concept.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by K. A. Pital »

Samuel wrote:Wow. It is like America's "we don't torture people policy" and then we had prisoners to foreigners who do torture. Er, hopefully not that literally.
That wasn't even America. It would be perhaps more of a consolation if that was America and you could just chalk it up to the "unique badness of the sick man of the First World", i.e. the USA.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Alphawolf55 »

On the subject of mask and Wall Street fuck them. All it does it create an Us and them mentality in the American people. The Occupy Wall Street movement is not some anarchist underground effort to bring down the government. It's an open attempt to change the discourse and projected route our country is taking (and for the most part suggest wholly Government solutions). Mask don't accomplish shit and they just make the general populace look at them and assume them to be either idiots or 4channers.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Simon_Jester »

Stas comes out of a revolutionary tradition, not a reformist tradition; the difference in mindset shows.

Reformers generally don't and shouldn't wear masks. Revolutionaries often do, and need to.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Alphawolf55 »

Simon_Jester wrote:Stas comes out of a revolutionary tradition, not a reformist tradition; the difference in mindset shows.

Reformers generally don't and shouldn't wear masks. Revolutionaries often do, and need to.
Yeah and we're dealing with a reformer situation. The goal is to get as many people as possible to feel like that the people who are protesting are them or could be them given the right circumstances. This means appearing professional, having a message that fits with them and making it clear they're not part of the fringe. The only ting wearing a mask does is alienate the people watching who are on the sidelines, it gives ammo to the opposition. The movement has two ways it go, it can either continue directionless with no clear leader in which case mask are pointless because stopping individual people won't stop the protest. Or it becomes organized, a leader rises up and in that case mask are still pointless because then people will need to see this face or at least not have that face hidden. No one is going to follow a masked individual who is promoting the ideals of openness and democracy.

If we decide we're going to take over the country and have a revolution fine bring your mask but until that day either leave the mask at home (and for christ sakes don't bring a Guy Fawkes mask it's asinine) or don't come and support the movement in some other way like donating funds to feed the protestors.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by K. A. Pital »

Alphawolf55 wrote:This means appearing professional, having a message that fits with them and making it clear they're not part of the fringe.
OWS is operating outside the typical "parliamentary democracy" bounds. They even wrote "postpolitics" stuff on their website. I'm not sure they want to become black suit-clad politicos via elections.

So they're not part of the "fringe", but they are disillusioned with the existing mechanisms of legal power transfer. They seek to modernize, improve or revamp them? Fine. But they are certainly operating outside "cast your vote, decide your nation's fate!" paradigm and that is surprisingly radical in my book, doesn't look like your typical reformist.

I am sorry if I'm mistaken. I only contact Occupy people here in Europe, not in America.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Simon_Jester »

I think many of them would be content with "cast your vote, decide your nation's fate!" if they really believed that casting their vote would decide their nation's fate: that they weren't simply being offered two, three, or more stripes of the same laissez-faire capitalism that they want to see held responsible for the current depression.

Insofar as there's a revolutionary sentiment behind Occupy Wall Street, I think it's mostly that the people protesting want their options back- they want to be able to choose between meaningfully different ways to manage society, instead of being stuck on a path that is leading them over a cliff.

This is outside of "politics" as it has been practiced for the last few decades, although not beyond the scope of historical political processes.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Zaune »

Occupy the London Stock Exchange has been asked to leave the grounds of St Peter's Cathedral on the grounds that they're disrupting access for tourists and possibly presenting some sort of fire and public health hazard. Previously the dean of the cathedral had not only given them permission to remain but asked the police to withdraw from church property, and reading between the lines it seems that some pressure has been applied from further up the chain of command. Pressure that I sincerely doubt originated from Canterbury, because the C of E are usually pretty good about preaching all the New Testament, not just the bits it's easy to abide by without significantly inconveniencing oneself.

Sometimes the separation of church and state can work in the church's favour, it seems.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Alphawolf55 »

Stas Bush wrote:
Alphawolf55 wrote:This means appearing professional, having a message that fits with them and making it clear they're not part of the fringe.
OWS is operating outside the typical "parliamentary democracy" bounds. They even wrote "postpolitics" stuff on their website. I'm not sure they want to become black suit-clad politicos via elections.

So they're not part of the "fringe", but they are disillusioned with the existing mechanisms of legal power transfer. They seek to modernize, improve or revamp them? Fine. But they are certainly operating outside "cast your vote, decide your nation's fate!" paradigm and that is surprisingly radical in my book, doesn't look like your typical reformist.

I am sorry if I'm mistaken. I only contact Occupy people here in Europe, not in America.
None of the things they want are particularly out there nor do they radically change the fundamentals of the system (well depending on what you consider the fundamentals). They mostly want prosecution of banks, campaign finance reform and better options for students, none of those things I would call at all radical, nor would I call their methods radical at least not radical enough that they need to hide their identity.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Alkaloid »

The Melbourne protest was cleared by police yesterday, it's pretty difficult to get a good concise article on what went down, so I'll just link this one and this one which have some details about what happened buried in some extraneous 'what are they protesting about?' crap.

Oddly enough, it's looking like this wasn't pushed by the state or federal governments, but by the Lord Mayor of Melbourne, Robert Doyle, who is a classist loon who has plans for improving Melbourne by doing things like discouraging people from the western and northern (poorer) suburbs from coming into the CBD, where they inevitably beat up the good little boys and girls that live there.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Starglider »

Breakdown: What Does Occupy Wall Street Want?
# 16,283: The government needs to impose salary caps for all businesses. If an individual ends up getting paid "too much" money, the government should fire and replace them with energy-efficient scooters. Recyclable energy-efficient scooters. From Darfur.
# 16,008: Free health care for every American and also non-Americans. This program should be able to cure every disease and also make it impossible to ever die. Also every year on your birthday the government should send you a check for $1,000 that says "GREAT JOB!!! XOXOXO UNCLE SAM"
# 15,998: "Being poor" should be a professional occupation subsidized by the rich, a job which can pay up to $56,000 annually. Tenure should be provided to individuals who do the best job being poor. This will ensure they do not end up living a life of poverty.
# 15,002: There are currently too many people who do not belong to unions. This can be fixed by creating a Global Union of Human Beings, which any person automatically joins upon being born. Union benefits include two free bumper stickers and the promise to fight for any human being who has their job replaced by a non-human being (exempting recyclable energy-efficient scooters from Darfur).
# 15,001: Banks should not be permitted to make money; they should only be allowed to lose money. But not our money... somebody else's money (emphasis on the key part of the statement).
# 14,781: Something seriously needs to be done about this whole global warming thing. We don't really have a concrete plan on how to solve it, but we'll just come up with shit and will judge its success on how many people it annoys. Maybe make it illegal to be warm or something.
# 13,850: Free Troy Davis' corpse.
# 13,129: There needs to be more jobs. There also needs to be less pollution. Replace pollution with jobs.
# 13,121: Remember that George W. Bush guy? He was a terrible president. We just wanted to remind anybody in case they forgot.
# 13,121: Also Dick Cheney.
# 12,677: Instead of shooting guys in the Middle East, our soldiers should be having gay sex with them.
# 12,003: Immigration laws must be reformed. Simply touching American soil should instantly make you an automatic American citizen. Mailing a foreigner a package of dirt from Ohio will immediately transform them into an American upon signing for the delivery. Also if you turn on the television and see an American on it, you become a citizen as well, regardless of where you are located.
# 11,873: Instead of forcing citizens to do it, Wall Street should pay to occupy itself.
# 11,295: The teachers union needs more rights and power. Instead of basing performance on student test scores, teachers will be rewarded based on the number of times they are able to correctly spell their own name.
# 10,911: More jobs for poor people, less jobs for rich people. Middle class people will keep the same amount of jobs they currently have, but they should be given coupons to trade their job in for another job of equal or lesser value (does not expire).
# 10,673: The government is far too corrupt and bloated. A new, bonus government should be created, with the explicit purpose of monitoring the other government. The bonus government should employ more public employees and have a larger budget than the original government, because that would obviously make it more effective.
# 10,271: CCP Games is ruining EVE Online's fragile economy and must be stopped at all costs.
# 9,972: It is not fair that a lot of money goes to rich people while only a little bit of money goes to poor people. For the sake of equality, all the money should instead go to the government.
# 8,883: Investment bankers are ruining the global economy. The fundamental principles of banking and investing are corrupt. To prevent another global meltdown, all numbers should be considered subjective. At any moment in time, the number 9 could suddenly become the number 46, and vice versa. Any number greater than 2,000,000 should be illegal.
# 8,102: Bring back "Arrested Development." Oh wait, they did bring it back. Well in that case, this is a preemptive protest for when it is inevitably canceled once more.
# 7,839: Guns are the leading cause of all gun-related murders, so guns should be illegal. Knives are the second highest leading cause of all gun-related murders, so they should also be illegal. Hell, let's just make murder illegal. That should solve the problem.
# 7,127: Atheism should be taught in all schools to counteract the Christians in our culture, who are all intolerant racists possessing extremely narrow, sweeping, judgmental worldviews.
# 6,231: A liberal scientific thinktank has conclusively proven the validity of the equation "TEA PARTY = NAZIS." This fact must be revealed and shared with the general public through the use of red markers on cardboard signs.
# 6,008: Automobile manufacturers should be required to install car seats that allow the driver to have an abortion while operating their vehicle. The dead baby should then be processed and used as biofuel.
# 5,998: The government should encourage eating anybody who earns over $250,000 a year.
# 4,289: There should be more support for gay marriage. Anybody should be able to have a gay marriage, regardless of sexual orientation or lack of partner. Any baby born should automatically be gay married to another baby by default, unless the baby signs a document stating otherwise.
# 3,165: The government should approve more research money to produce vegan tapwater.
# 2,971: Government should subsidize iPhones for all Americans (ie, "only poor Americans").
# 2,506: Support for impractical, unsustainable, expensive, inefficient renewable energy sources that inconvenience everyone involved and cause more problems than they solve. Maybe a windmill powered by sand that is delivered to homes via horseback.
# 2,288: Close Guantanamo Bay. Open more Trader Joe's.
# 1,963: The government should move Wall Street to somewhere more comfortable, like an open field or a beach maybe. That would really help us all occupy it more efficiently. Make it closer to our apartments too.
# 1,584: Free college education offering degrees available through the internet. Possible majors include Advanced Blogging, Politics Arguing, and Minecraft Playing.
# 963: White people shouldn't be allowed to vote for Herman Cain because the only reason they'd do this is to trick people into thinking they aren't racist, when they actually are. The only person who should be able to vote for Cain is himself.
# 502: Make it possible to Congressionally elect anime characters.
# 384: Something (bad) is happening to the ocean and somebody should try to stop it (soon).
# 201: Illegalize money.
# 153: Replace Fox News with a channel that reports on the furry community 24/7. Continue to call it "Fox News."
# 97: Rebuild the Twin Towers and let Muslims fly more planes into it so they can get their aggression out. Repeat process until they see how compassionate we are and thereby end their hostilities against us.
# 43: There should be one day every month where the cops are put in jails and the prisoners get to be police officers, because then those fascist pigs will know what it feels like to be on the other side. We can call it something fun like "The Great Switcharoo Day."
# 19: End the "skateboarding is in fact a crime" act.
# 17: No particular agenda; just showed up to wear stupid Guy Fawkes masks and do retarded shit to be ashamed of for the rest of all eternity.
# 1: Sane and rational person who thoroughly understands the fundamental problems in America.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by K. A. Pital »

If an individual ends up getting paid "too much" money, the government should fire and replace them with energy-efficient scooters. Recyclable energy-efficient scooters. From Darfur.
Instead of shooting guys in the Middle East, our soldiers should be having gay sex with them.
It is not fair that a lot of money goes to rich people while only a little bit of money goes to poor people. For the sake of equality, all the money should instead go to the government.
Atheism should be taught in all schools to counteract the Christians in our culture, who are all intolerant racists possessing extremely narrow, sweeping, judgmental worldviews
The government should encourage eating anybody who earns over $250,000 a year.
Illegalize money.
Replace Fox News with a channel that reports on the furry community 24/7. Continue to call it "Fox News."
Awesome, pure awesome. Too bad this won't be really put in a real political program.

:lol: I love it. I positively love OWS. Yeah, people say they're leaderless and mostly goalless, poorly structured spontaneous protest.

But they're causing so much butthurt from the conservative-capitalist camp that it's simply delighting. :lol: Delicious. Like Dexter.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by JointStrikeFighter »

yes we know you're a contentless troll starglider.

How about contributing something of worth to the thread or any of the other threads you've run away from?
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

The war has begun.



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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Meanwhile, in Philadelphia, some of the first arrests happened on Sunday:
Posted on Mon, Oct. 24, 2011

15 Occupy Philadelphia protesters arrested after blocking Eighth Street

By Susan Snyder

Inquirer Staff Writer

Updated at 8 a.m. Monday

Philadelphia police arrested 15 people associated with Occupy Philadelphia on Sunday after blocking Eighth Street near Race Street just outside Police Headquarters.

The sit-in began about 17 hours earlier as a protest march against police brutality nationwide.

They were the first arrests since the movement began in the first week of October. Occupy Philadelphia, part of a larger national protest, is a grassroots demonstration against Wall Street and corporate greed that has taken on other issues, such as police brutality.

The arrests were made peacefully, and the Police Department's handling of the matter even brought praise from an Occupy Philadelphia organizer.

"This went off really well. The Police Department really showed the rest of the world, specifically New York, how to handle protesters," said Julia Alford-Fowler, an Occupy Philadelphia organizer in its legal working group. "And I think they should be commended for being peaceful."

Alford-Fowler, 33, a doctoral student at Temple University and instructor at Delaware County Community College, said participants began the march from City Hall Saturday afternoon and wound up near Police Headquarters. When some people sat in the street, a police captain warned them they could be arrested, she said.

Some members of the group decided they were willing to take that chance and slept in the street, holding their ground. By late Sunday morning, dozens of police officers - many trained in civil disobedience - began showing up. Police blocked off Eighth Street between Race and Cherry and called on Larry Krasner, a lawyer, to communicate with the group.

The protesters sat with arms linked, many wearing scarves over their faces. They said they would move if police issued an apology to them in front of cameras.

Most of the protesters were in their 20s, some of them recently unemployed, some recent college graduates. Several said they had been wrongly arrested or had their rights violated by police locally and elsewhere.

"We're taught in school this is the land of the free," though many are incarcerated in the United States, said Bri Barton, 22, a recent graduate of Moore College of Art and Design. "I want people to stop dying because of this country."

Matthew Goodsell, 25, of Philadelphia, a recently unemployed floor installer, said he had been wrongfully arrested twice, including once for underage drinking.

"I don't believe the police when they say they're here to protect and serve because of my personal experience," he said.

Others who complained of bad experiences with police and who were among those arrested included: Christopher Janney, 31, a laid-off forklift operator from Philadelphia; Kayla Wandishin, 20, a student at the Art Institute of Philadelphia; and Deborah Vonberg, 24, of Levittown.

Krasner told the group that for their safety they should remove all bottles, liquids, penknives, and other objects from their pockets.

He said officers would "disengage" their arms, and they could choose to walk or be carried.

"They do not want to use force on you," Krasner said.

About a dozen officers on bicycles surrounded the protesters, creating a blockaded circle with their bikes. Other officers on foot created a second ring around the group.

Police issued three warnings, then began to remove the protesters, one by one, to be arrested. Some were carried; some walked. They were charged with obstructing a highway.

A few dozen supporters and onlookers gathered to watch and at times chanted in support. "This is reality. Stop police brutality," they chanted.

Each of those arrested faced misdemeanor obstruction charges. All were released after processing, a police spokeswoman said Monday morning.

By late Sunday night, a dozen or so demonstrators were camped on the sidewalk outside Police Headquarters in a show of support, with three officers standing watch from inside the parking lot. Julia Gross, a student speaking for the group, said others planned to come in shifts from the City Hall encampment until the detainees were released, which they hoped would be sometime Monday.

Everett Gillison, the deputy mayor for public safety who last week was also appointed Mayor Nutter's chief of staff, oversaw the arrests. He said the protesters had been given the option of moving to another spot but had chosen to stay.

"We don't want to arrest them. We're doing everything we can not to arrest them, but they cannot stay in the middle of the street," he said. "It is a public safety issue."

Richard Negrin, the city's managing director who also stood by during the arrests, said the protesters were jeopardizing the good relationship Occupy Philadelphia had fostered with city police since the movement started.

"This hurts their cause," he said, noting that the effort was using up police manpower and costing the city money. "This has nothing to do with economic justice. They need to stop this. This is their first black eye."
Notice the differences here. No violence. Things proceeded calmly during the arrests. A organizer with Occupy Philadelphia's legal working group even praised the police response.

In fact, earlier this month:
Posted on Fri, Oct. 7, 2011

Ramsey sends positive message to protesters.

By Allison Steele

INQUIRER STAFF WRITER

Police Commissioner Charles H. Ramsey has a message for those taking part in the Occupy Philadelphia protest at City Hall: The Police Department is here to help.

At roll call Thursday morning, to coincide with the official start of the protest, Ramsey had the First Amendment read in all districts, as a reminder of the department's role in protecting that right.

The exercise will be repeated until officers in all districts have heard it, Ramsey said.

In addition, police dispatchers have been regularly reading the amendment and a message about treating demonstrator respectfully over police radio.


"We want to make sure officers understand and respect that these people have the right to be here," Ramsey said Thursday.

He spent Thursday morning at the demonstration, often pausing to shake hands and talk with people. He said he planned to drop by regularly in the days and weeks to come, and hoped lines of communication would stay open between demonstrators and police.

He was there again this morning.

"If they want to march, we'll escort them," he said. "We'll just have to monitor this day by day."

In New York City, Occupy Wall Street demonstrators have clashed with police on several occasions, most notably when hundreds were arrested last weekend on the Brooklyn Bridge. Many protesters have said the police orchestrated the arrests by leading them onto the bridge roadway and corralling them there. Others have reported pepper-spraying incidents and other assaults by police.

Ramsey said the police hope protesters remain peaceful and keep in mind that other people need to be able to maneuver through the crowd on their way to work or elsewhere.

"We're going to be as tolerant as we can be," he said.
This is the way to handle things, on both sides.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by weemadando »

Apparently it wasn't a rubber bullet but a fucking tear gas canister he was hit with. Currently in critical condition in hospital.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/ ... pe=article
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by loomer »

Well, I can't imagine that'll go over well with some of the 'soft right' - the people who buy into some of the Support Our Troops mentality but not the entirety of the party line. Shooting one of the Troops in the head for exercising his democratic right to peacefully assemble after he served his country (there's actually quite a few veterans out in the protests, as I understand it, including some from earlier wars) might help snap some of them out of their complacency.

Hopefully he'll become a rallying point for a stronger, more numerous movement. At least then something'd good would come out of his getting pegged with that teargas.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Big Orange »

Wow, a lot hinges on whether he lives or dies, with things possibly snowballing faster if war hero dies from perhaps an intentionally inflicted wound, and the Greek riots have claimed a few lives already (I've heard of one guy getting killed in Athens in the last week or so).

Here's some footage of rioting in 1930s America:

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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by FSTargetDrone »

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This is apparently a former sailor named Joshua Shepherd who can be seen in some of the pictures and videos with Scott Olsen who was struck in the head. This image may be before that incident, but I'm not sure. Various reports say he is holding a copy of the US Constitution.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by Flagg »

Olbermann is demanding that the mayor of Oakland fire the police commissioner or resign. Frankly I think they should all be brought up on charges of human rights abuses and shipped off to the ICC.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by weemadando »

There's been chatter about Oakland PD having a lot of officers either go AWOL or give their 2 weeks notice today.

Yet to see any actual confirmation of it though.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Tom Joad: Then it don't matter. I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a fight, so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Wherever there's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there. I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad. I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry and they know supper's ready, and when the people are eatin' the stuff they raise and livin' in the houses they build - I'll be there, too.
we need mister joad nowadays.
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Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

weemadando wrote:There's been chatter about Oakland PD having a lot of officers either go AWOL or give their 2 weeks notice today.

Yet to see any actual confirmation of it though.
Whats gonna happen in Oakland if there's full-blown riots then?
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You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
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