Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

[LapsedPacifist]

According to the article "TEL = non-911 police number (answered by 911 dispatcher)"

I don't know if it's a sign of insanity or just a busybody... It's a lot of calls but it is over 9 years.

[Alyrium Denryle]

According to the article "TEL = non-911 police number (answered by 911 dispatcher)"

I don't know if it's a sign of insanity or just a busybody... It's a lot of calls but it is over 9 years.

Yeah, but some of them were 911. They were over 9 years, but god damn. Some of these are insane. Like, actually signs of some sort of lunacy.

"Help officer, there are children playing in the street!"

"Help! There is a white dude and two hispanics at the pool. They have snack meats!"

[LapsedPacifist]

"Help! There is a white dude and two hispanics at the pool. They have snack meats!"

I thought "Slim Jim" was slang for a crowbar thinggy...

[Flagg]

According to the article "TEL = non-911 police number (answered by 911 dispatcher)"

I don't know if it's a sign of insanity or just a busybody... It's a lot of calls but it is over 9 years.

Yeah it's the non emergency number you're supposed to call if you see something suspicious. We used those lines when I worked security. The number of calls isn't all that odd, but the content is disturbing.

[Alyrium Denryle]

"Help! There is a white dude and two hispanics at the pool. They have snack meats!"

I thought "Slim Jim" was slang for a crowbar thinggy...

Not that I am aware of. It is a brand name for a type of beef jerky stick

[Patroklos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slim_Jim_(lock_pick)

Used to pic locks of cars. Its disturbingly effective especially for older cars. Most cops have one if you ever lock yourself out.

[Alyrium Denryle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slim_Jim_(lock_pick)

Used to pic locks of cars. Its disturbingly effective especially for older cars. Most cops have one if you ever lock yourself out.

And they would be by the pool carrying one openly...why?

[Patroklos]

To steal cars perhaps. Who knows. Definetly suspicious, though I could see many things being mistaken for a slim jim.

[Thanas]

"So hey, I got a great idea....first we go swimming so everybody sees us and then we're totally gonna steal their cars."

....yeah. I get that some criminals are dumb, but c'mon.

[Thanas]

So what we can we conclude? Well, Zimmerman is a hypervigilant busy-body who reports people to the police for going swimming and having house guests, and who, when prompted by the existence of actual crimes (rather than crimes that exist only in his head) racially profiles every black kid he sees, to the point of chasing one through the neighborhood and later killing him in what may or may not have actually been self defense.

That would be my conclusion as well and if I had to judge him purely on the content of his 9/11 calls I'd say he was a paranoid nutbag who probably felt that the police were not taking him seriously enough (aka "don't do what I want") and decided to prove that he was right by any means necessary. Then he got over his head - due to his insane paranoia - and ended up shooting a kid.

[Alyrium Denryle]

To steal cars perhaps. Who knows. Definetly suspicious, though I could see many things being mistaken for a slim jim.

In an area of a subdivision that has no parking spaces typically? In the middle of the night, how can he tell what it is they have or what ethnicity they are?

Now admittedly, because I did not know that particular form of criminal slang, I may have misinterpreted the call's information (which simply moves one call from Insane, into Not Black). However, it also seems incredible to me that he could gather the information he did in the dead of night, in an area of a residential area that is not typically well lit.

On the other hand, Thanas hit the nail on the head:

"So hey, I got a great idea....first we go swimming so everybody sees us and then we're totally gonna steal their cars."

....yeah. I get that some criminals are dumb, but c'mon.

[LapsedPacifist]

This is one part of the story. The part it doesn't tell us is how many times he stopped to talk to people and just resolve these issues. That would tell us whether he was rolling around in his truck as a psuedo authority figure, or as part of the neighborhood who only called when he was legitimately frightened. The kids-playing-in-street call really sets off warning bells, I don't think this is someone I'd want patrolling my neighborhood.

[Thanas]

I am going to venture a guess he didn't stop in those cases where he already had called the police. He might have been one of those "If you don't do what I say I'm gonna call the cops" types, in which case it actually is a lot more damning to him, because that means those perceived offences are just the tip of the iceberg.

[Agent Fisher]

A lot of those non-911 calls could possibly have been normal city services calls. Perhaps Sanford doesn't have a dedicated 311/City Services Operator. In Sacramento, there is a dedicated 311 Operator and then there is the Police Dispatchers, who you can reach either by call 911 from a landline or contacting through a non-911 number (two of them, one for emergencies, the other as a non-emergency line). People are always encouraged to report suspicious activity to the non-emergency number, at least if it's in progress. If it's something else, they can go to the PD website to fill out a report.

With regards to the incidents where he called about people in the pool, the three of them I saw are clear Trespass issues. I haven't seen a picture of this community, but I bet it's got a clubhouse with a pool that gets locked, probably around 10PM. So, anyone in the pool afterwards is committing a misdemeanor. And a 'slim jim' can be considered a burglary tool. Pre-post edit: Yep, looked up satellite pictures of the place, looks exactly like a number of HOAs that my company provides security for.

I work in a HOA very similar to where the shooting occurred. Only differences are the HOA I work in isn't gated and has approximately 4000 homes. I get calls like this all the time. "Oh, there's kids playing in the street." "Oh, someone left a garage door open." "Oh, there have been a rash of burglaries in the area and I see someone I don't recognize checking out houses." "Oh, it's dark out, there's a guy walking around slowly, looks like he's checking out houses." If the street or little section of the HOA is really tight, they'll know who lives on their street, they'll remember what cars they drive, what they look like. So, if they see a car that they don't recognize loitering in their area, wouldn't be that weird to call about it. And I'd roll out, contact the subject, ensure there not up to any suspicious activity and then wish them a good night. Or advise them "You know, this isn't the best place to park and have a 'chat' with your friend. Might I suggest somewhere that isn't a residential street?"

[Aaron MkII]

"Help! There is a white dude and two hispanics at the pool. They have snack meats!"

I thought "Slim Jim" was slang for a crowbar thinggy...

Not that I am aware of. It is a brand name for a type of beef jerky stick

It is both.

[Crown]

<snip all your posts>

Dude, congratulations you've managed to convince me that Zimmerman is one thorough prick through and through, but I was never really unconvinced about that to begin with (what with the whole shooting an unarmed teenager and all), in case you missed the point here it is again;

<snip> but what is from my mind obvious is that I believe Trayvon would be alive and well if Zimmerman didn't have a gun, because if he didn't have a gun there was no way he would have got out of that car.

But we're not talking about that.

[J]

This was from the original thread:

http://news.yahoo.com/zimmerman-complai ... 29899.html

Zimmerman complained about Sanford police in 2011
Associated Press By KYLE HIGHTOWER | Associated Press – Wed, May 23, 2012

ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — George Zimmerman accused the Sanford police department of corruption more than a year before he shot Trayvon Martin, saying at a public forum the agency covered up the beating of a black homeless man by the son of a white officer.

"I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white," Zimmerman said during a 90-second statement to city commissioners at a community forum. "It should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those who are in the thin blue line."

The forum took place on Jan. 8, 2011, days after a video of the beating went viral on the Internet and then-Sanford Police Chief Brian Tooley was forced to retire. Tooley's department faced criticism for dragging its feet in arresting Justin Collison, the son of a police lieutenant.

"I'd like to know what action the commission is taking in order to repeal Mr. Tooley's pension," Zimmerman said to the commission. "I'm not asking you to repeal his pension; I believe he's already forfeited his pension by his illegal cover-up in corruption in what happened in his department."

Zimmerman's public comments could be important because the Martin family and supporters contend the neighborhood watch volunteer singled Martin out because he was black. Zimmerman has a Peruvian mother and a white father. His supporters have said he is not racist.

The Miami Herald first reported details from the January 2011 community forum Wednesday. The Associated Press obtained a copy of the tape from the meeting.

In the speech, Zimmerman said he witnessed "disgusting" behavior by officers when he was part of a ride-along program, though the agency said it did not know when, if ever, Zimmerman was in that program.

"The officer showed me his favorite hiding spots for taking naps. He explained to me he doesn't carry a long gun in his vehicle because in his words, 'Anything that requires a long gun requires a lot of paperwork and you're gonna find me as far away from it.'"

Zimmerman also said the officer in question "took two lunch breaks and attended a going away party for one of his fellow officers."

Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett and interim police chief Richard Myers were both unavailable for comment.

Zimmerman is free on bond awaiting his second-degree murder trial for shooting Martin. Martin was walking back to a townhome he was staying at when he got into a fight with Zimmerman, who shot him in the chest at close range.

Zimmerman, who claims the Feb. 26 shooting was self-defense, was initially not arrested. But after protests around the country and an investigation by a state prosecutor, he was charged.

Tooley's successor, Bill Lee, temporarily resigned his post following a no-confidence vote by city commissioners.

Lee offered to resign permanently, but his commissioners turned down his request. He is on paid leave.

Fact 1) George Zimmerman supported a black homeless man in a police corruption scandal

Fact 2) George is half white and half Peruvian

You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming...

[CarsonPalmer]

Fact 1) George Zimmerman supported a black homeless man in a police corruption scandal

Fact 2) George is half white and half Peruvian

You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming...

There is a very interesting genre of Civil War books written primarily by neo-confederates. They are usually children's books, and consist of (mostly factually accurate tales) of vaguely nice things that Southern slaveowners/Confederates like Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and Stonewall Jackson did for their slaves. The intention being to prove that if Lee/Davis/Jackson once did a nice thing for a slave, they were clearly not racists and therefore the South was right and just.

I suppose if that bullshit can find an audience, the same line that because Zimmerman once did a nice thing for a black guy he could not have been racist and could not have been unjustified in his shooting of Trayvon Martin can also find an audience.

[Agent Fisher]

By that logic everyone is secretly a racist who will occasionally do non-racist things.

[Crown]

I suppose if that bullshit can find an audience, the same line that because Zimmerman once did a nice thing for a black guy he could not have been racist and could not have been unjustified in his shooting of Trayvon Martin can also find an audience.

HOLY FUCKING SHIT. How thick are you people exactly? WHO is saying that Zimmerman 'could not have been unjustified in his shooting of Trayvon Martin'?

Quote them.

[CarsonPalmer]

I suppose if that bullshit can find an audience, the same line that because Zimmerman once did a nice thing for a black guy he could not have been racist and could not have been unjustified in his shooting of Trayvon Martin can also find an audience.

HOLY FUCKING SHIT. How thick are you people exactly? WHO is saying that Zimmerman 'could not have been unjustified in his shooting of Trayvon Martin'?

Quote them.

Okay, I'll rephrase-"was not" instead of "could not have".

[mr friendly guy]

At this point we're just arguing opinions so I don't see any point in continuing on this. We'll just have to wait until something like that actually happens and ensure that it meets on those requirements

This was back in 1992 the decision by the local cops not to charge and then the acquittal by a jury just defies all reason from my perspective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_HattoriSource[/url]


It seems to me that there are too many factors in the US justice system to make reliable predictions on how any action would go. So, you could easily be right.

At this point, there doesn't seem to be much more to say. The saving grace is that these factors may not be present in different states, so my scenario might not occur unless states just having more similar laws and precedents.

However I will clarify a few things

Actually, none of them do. That's really the point. Even Zimmerman had witnesses. It will be extremely difficult to meet all those other criteria in addition to there also being no witnesses.

My understanding is that there are third party witnesses to the fact that Martin was followed (because he phoned a friend) and third party witnesses from a distance, that Martin got the upper hand in the confrontation, but none to actually say who started it, or was Martin actually doing severe damage at the time (besides Zimmerman). I am not afraid of someone claiming self defence when there are multiple witnesses saying you started it, I am afraid of someone claiming self defence when the best witness into the contentious issue (ie who started it, was the dead person actually using excessive / dangerous force that requires us to shoot him) is dead.

Well, it's easy to argue that you didn't intend on killing someone when you punched them in the head. It makes sense that it would be downgraded from murder to manslaughter.

You misunderstand. There are cases where manslaughter didn't even stick. Some of it was you still need to be reasonably forseeable (which is bullshit since they have been a spate of one punch deaths, so hell yeah its foreseeable) or it wasn't manslaughter because the punch was judged not to have killed the victim. It was the head hitting the pavement that killed him. Even though the head wouldn't hit the pavement if you didn't punch him. It wasn't a case of "didn't intend to kill" in that second case.

[Korto]

I'm sorry, Friendly, but I wouldn't be in a hurry either to find someone guilty of manslaughter in a case where they were killed by a punch in the head, even when they then fell and hit their head on concrete. It's not a reasonable expectation for someone to die from a punch. People get punched all the time, and hardly anyone dies from it*; those that do are due to fluke chances that will always arise eventually. Mind you, apparently vending machines kill 13 people a year in the US (as an example of fluke chances that crop up by the Law of Large Numbers).
Sometimes accidents just happen.

(*) This does not include occasions where someone is extensively beaten, kicked while on the ground, etc.

[The Cooler King]

I always hesitate to wade into the political and news discussions here, mainly because everyone else is either (a) more eloquent, and states my case better than I would, (b) persuasive enough that I change my mind before I even think about posting, or (c) aggressive enough that I think twice about posting anything, but this sticks out to me.

Quick question-- in that list of 911 calls, the ones that specifically mention race, how likely is it that the dispatcher asked for the subject's race, rather than Zimmermann volunteering that information (like the call about Trayvon)? I understand the larger issue about race in this country, especially regarding the high percentage of black men in prison, and the higher likelihood of blacks going to prison for murder over whites, but is it possible that this specific case was not (at its core) about race? It still doesn't absolve Zimmermann of the fact that he killed an unarmed kid, but it might put the case in a bit more perspective. Just my two cents' worth.

[aerius]

Quick question-- in that list of 911 calls, the ones that specifically mention race, how likely is it that the dispatcher asked for the subject's race, rather than Zimmermann volunteering that information (like the call about Trayvon)?

This is the audio of the call
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L04Vh4do6bY

This is the transcript of the call
http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... erman.html

He was explicitly asked for a race & description of the person by the dispatcher.