Massive attacks against trains in Spain/Madrid

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-13 07:11pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Since Europe has suffered much more terrorism than America over the past few decades and yet does not rush to endorse the same supposedly anti-terror measures the US does (eg- invading Iraq), I find your conclusion questionable.
No he has a point, how much does Poland care about Corsican separatists?

Not at all, I'm sure. But I would hardly think that after being specifically named as a target by Al-Quaeda and suffering hundreds of casualties from their own homegrown terrorists over the years, Spain would still need this bombing to start "taking terrorism seriously".

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-13 07:11pm

The version I posted is more complete, although the english translation is mediocre.

In case anyone's interested, hereare the bank accounts for solidarity donations to the victims.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-13 07:12pm

Show how people do not take terrorism seriously. I was unaware of a jocular or apathetic attitude toward terrorist bombings.

You are aware that it is possible to take something even more seriously than you are already taking it?

Such as ...?

More support for sanctions and/or actions against terror-supporting regimes like Syria? And maybe Saudi Arabia someday, when the U.S. is no longer Best Friends 4Ever with them.

Since Europe has suffered much more terrorism than America over the past few decades and yet does not rush to endorse the same supposedly anti-terror measures the US does (eg- invading Iraq), I find your conclusion questionable.

Hey, it's absolutely correct. Has the U.S. ever really cared about IRA and Basque terrorism the way that Europeans have? Hell no.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-13 07:14pm

Darth Wong wrote: Not at all, I'm sure. But I would hardly think that after being specifically named as a target by Al-Quaeda and suffering hundreds of casualties from their own homegrown terrorists over the years, Spain would still need this bombing to start "taking terrorism seriously".

Unfortunatly, some people do. Over here I've spoken to too many people who think the threat is non-existant, even though the UK has been named (and has also suffered from homegrown terrorists), and is arguably at more risk from Al Qaeda than Spain.
While the goverment knows there is a threat, a decent amount of the populace won't believe it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-13 07:16pm

Joe wrote:You are aware that it is possible to take something even more seriously than you are already taking it?

So what do you expect them to do, then?

More support for sanctions and/or actions against terror-supporting regimes like Syria? And maybe Saudi Arabia someday, when the U.S. is no longer Best Friends 4Ever with them.

This sounds so familiar ... hmmm, oh yes, I believe this was the same rationale behind the US actions against Iraq. As we can all see, those actions were spectacularly successful in their goal of stabilizing the region

Hey, it's absolutely correct. Has the U.S. ever really cared about IRA and Basque terrorism the way that Europeans have? Hell no.

And America's historical naivete is analogous to Spain, with its long history of terrorism ... how?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-13 07:33pm

So what do you expect them to do, then?

See above and below.

This sounds so familiar ... hmmm, oh yes, I believe this was the same rationale behind the US actions against Iraq. As we can all see, those actions were spectacularly successful in their goal of stabilizing the region

The region is relatively stable. Maybe not as stable as predicted by the advocates of the war, and in Iraq there is certainly a lot of work to do, but certainly considerably more stable than the predictions of certain individuals who were certain that a war in Iraq would set off the Day of the Burning.

And America's historical naivete is analogous to Spain, with its long history of terrorism ... how?

I'm sorry, Mike, this just seems like common sense to me. I withdraw my criticism if you disagree that strongly.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-13 07:47pm

Sharp-kun wrote: Unfortunatly, some people do. Over here I've spoken to too many people who think the threat is non-existant, even though the UK has been named (and has also suffered from homegrown terrorists), and is arguably at more risk from Al Qaeda than Spain.
While the goverment knows there is a threat, a decent amount of the populace won't believe it.

The populace doesn't believe it because they hear the government saying "we have stopped several terrorist plots already" and they think "sure just like you knew where Saddam's WMD were", Blair should never have tried to get away with such a flimsy argument over Iraq, what plays to US audiences doesn't play to European ones.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-13 08:13pm

Al Qaeda claims responsibility and say terrorist bombings come in response to Spain’s collaboration with criminal Bush and his allies.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-13 08:22pm

TheDarkling wrote:Al Qaeda claims responsibility and say terrorist bombings come in response to Spain?s collaboration with criminal Bush and his allies.

here

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2004-03-13 09:42pm

a moredetailed report

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-03-14 01:09am

Funny, I heard that Al Queda claimed responsibility early on, but I couldn't find anything about this in today's Los Angeles Times. Also, I read the report that the ETA has denied rsponsibility, which they never do if they in fact did commit such a bombing. However, it was reported that a planned bombing of a commuter train by ETA was stopped in December.

Also, there was a detailed report that sources within the ETA were planning to TEAM with Islamic extremists as far back as two years ago. But doesn't the discovery of a van with "a" tape of "Koranic" verses sound like a Red Herring? Since when do devout Muslims listen to the Koran "book on tape"??

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2004-03-14 09:21am

Lord Poe wrote:Funny, I heard that Al Queda claimed responsibility early on, but I couldn't find anything about this in today's Los Angeles Times. Also, I read the report that the ETA has denied rsponsibility, which they never do if they in fact did commit such a bombing. However, it was reported that a planned bombing of a commuter train by ETA was stopped in December.

Also, there was a detailed report that sources within the ETA were planning to TEAM with Islamic extremists as far back as two years ago. But doesn't the discovery of a van with "a" tape of "Koranic" verses sound like a Red Herring? Since when do devout Muslims listen to the Koran "book on tape"??

It's odd that they'd be that blatant. Maybe they have it on instead of the radio? Anyway, here's another link

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-03-14 09:58am

The region is relatively stable

What exactly is stable about hundreds of civilians and soldiers getting blown up per month; ethnic tensions throughout the country, including rapidly esclating problems with the Kurds?

but certainly considerably more stable than the predictions of certain individuals who were certain that a war in Iraq would set off the Day of the Burning.

Can you quote the predictions of one of these 'certain individuals'?

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-14 01:54pm

Urgent EU talks call after Spain

The announcement was made after a meeting of Germany's national security cabinet in Berlin.

It comes amid growing indications that the Madrid attacks were carried out by an Islamic group and not Eta.

Germany asked the Irish presidency of the EU to organise a special meeting of the ministers as soon as possible - perhaps in the coming week.

German debate

The German Interior Minister, Otto Schily, said that if it were confirmed that the Madrid bombings had an "Islamic background" then it would mean a new level of threat in Europe.

He was speaking after a meeting of Germany's national security cabinet, which was summoned by the Chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder, after Spain announced it had arrested five non-Spaniards on Saturday evening.

The Madrid bombings have prompted fierce debate in Germany about security measures, with the opposition calling for airport-style security to be introduced at railway stations across the country.

The German government rejects this as impractical, and says it has beefed up security in other ways.

It has also insisted that the Schengen Agreement, which allows travel between many EU members without border checks, should remain in place.

Let's see what comes out of this.. The current generation of EU politicians has a redeeming chance of not being seen in the future as composed of mediocre, selfcentered individuals, like they have until now shown themselves to be.

BenRG · Post by **BenRG** » 2004-03-14 02:30pm

Firstly, I wish to express my sincerest condolences to the relatives of the dead and my wish that the wounded make as full a recovery as possible.

So far, AFAIK, it is difficult to make a compelling case for blaming the 'prime suspects' ETA and Al-Qaeda (the latter being difficult to blame as it is essentially a funding and training body for disassociated local groups). ETA just doesn't do stuff this big and AQ doesn't usually make statements claiming responsibility (that group who emailed a letter to a London-based Arabic newspaper are known to be fantasists who like claiming responsibility for others' crimes).

So where does that leave us? I think that this may be the work of a new group, possibly trying to revive the half-millennia-old squabbles between Morocco and Spain regarding the ownership of some islands and lots of real estate in Europe. As bizarre as that sounds, stranger reasons have been the cause of worse atrocities in its' time. A slightly more realistic possibility is a new, more blood-thirsty off-shoot of radical Basque nationalism that has learnt a few new technical tricks (members who went to technical collegues) and has learnt how to create global headlines from the example of Islamic terrorism.

The arrests make this latter choice less likely... unless those five are patsies being set up for the fall.

At most, I think that it is possible that a money and planning link to people who have been to bin Laden's Afghan training camps may yet be found. However, as with many other AQ-funded terrorist incidents, there is probably very little, if any, direct organisational link with AQ itself.

The thing that worries me is that the weapons used (cellphone-triggered blast/frag bombs) seem a completely new instrument in the terrorist arsenal, one that negates the need for a human delivery system (or 'suicide bomber') so long as the baggage in any given target vehicle isn't checked thoroughly enough when it is loaded. That, by the way, matches the description of most baggage on almost all internal mass-transport systems. Hell, you could probably use a similar system to deliver a package bomb that only detonates when the terrorist (watching the target through binoculars) verifies that the target has picked it up.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-03-14 05:18pm

Well, the Conservatives had made a mistake by trying to use this to blame the ETA. Since it was a very easy to see opportunistic tactic, they got thier asses kicked in the elections.
Now the Social Democrats, the liberal left, will rule Spain......

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-03-14 05:24pm

The conservatives still have a majority, though not the overwhelming one they once did.

BenRG · Post by **BenRG** » 2004-03-14 05:31pm

The last I heard, the socialists had claimed victory. Of course, your average politician would do that if he had come third or worse so...

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-03-14 05:38pm

Conservatives: 37.3
Social Democrates: 43.0

I think it's clear....

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-14 05:52pm

Tribun wrote:Conservatives: 37.3
Social Democrates: 43.0

I think it's clear....

Where'd you get that from?

The Beeb is saying the Socialists one, but exit polling favors the Popular Party.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-14 05:52pm

one = won. Jesus...

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-14 05:53pm

PSOE has won the elections, with a confortable margin. I am pleased, 8 years of a PP government is enough. Party rotation is good for democracy.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2004-03-14 05:54pm

Joe wrote:one = won. Jesus...

[Nelson]HA HA![/Nelson]

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-14 05:55pm

Joe wrote:
Tribun wrote:Conservatives: 37.3
Social Democrates: 43.0

I think it's clear....
Where'd you get that from?

The Beeb is saying the Socialists won, but exit polling favors the Popular Party.

elpais wrote:El PSOE gana las elecciones, con el 85%
de los votos escrutados (164 escaños)
PARTICIPACIÓN: Ocho puntos más que en los comicios del año 2000 TRAS EL 11-M: El dolor y la indignación marcan los escasos incidentes ANDALUCÍA: Los andaluces eligen presidente de su Gobierno autónomo

El PSOE ha dado la sorpresa y ha ganado con holgura las elecciones generales que se han disputado hoy. Con el 85,10% del voto escrutado, y sin que se prevean ya cambios significativos, los socialistas han obtenido el 43,01% de los votos y 164 escaños, a once de la mayoría absoluta. El PP, que partía como favorito en las encuestas, se ha quedado en el 37,47% de los sufragios y 148 diputados. CiU obtiene diez escaños, ERC –la que más sube relativamente- ocho y siete el PNV. IU pierde cuatro diputados y se queda en cinco.

Basically, with 85% of the votes counted, PSOE has 164 seats in the parliament, against PP's 148.

EDIT: information just updated. 98% of the votes already counted, PSOE has 163 seats and PP 148. PP has already admited defeat.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-14 06:36pm

Well I think the US may have a greater problem in gathering a coalition of the willing for anymore shakily justified adventures n the future.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Massive attacks against trains in Spain/Madrid

A horror