Israeli forces attack humanitarian convoy in intl. waters

[CBG]

"Those poor starving Palestinians" is just stupid leftist and islamic propaganda against Israel.
Some photos from Gaza:
http://undhimmi.com/2010/05/31/gaza-do- ... -flotilla/
Of course a few photos are not enough, so let's compare some hard data (from CIA World Factbook). We will take the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and 2 of Israel's neighbours, both arab ruled and not starving. Let's say Egypt and Lebanon:
Population Growth rate:
(G)aza:3,29%
(E)gypt:1,997%
(L)ebanon:0,621%
(W)est Bank:2,13%
Gaza is a clear winner here. Not exactly what would you expect from the starving ones.
Birth rate:
G:36.26 births/1,000 population
E:25.02 births/1,000 population
L:15.1 births/1,000 population
W:24.91 births/1,000 population
Again, Gaza is the unexpected winner.
Death rate:
G:3.36 deaths/1,000 population
E:4.85 deaths/1,000 population
L:6.46 deaths/1,000 population
W:3.62 deaths/1,000 population
Like above.
Infant mortality rate:
G:17.71 deaths/1,000 live births
E:26.2 deaths/1,000 live births
L:16.4 deaths/1,000 live births
W:15.41 deaths/1,000 live births
Third note, but still much better than totally unblockaded Egypt. Maybye send that medical aid to Egypt instead?
Life expectancy at birth:
G:73.68 years
E:72.4 years
L:74.79 years
W:74.78 years
Like above.
Total fertility rate:
G:4.9 children born/woman
E:3.01 children born/woman
L:1.78 children born/woman
W:3.12 children born/woman
They make a hell of a lot of children , considering they are starving.

So, i have shown some data that would have been visibly affected by widespread starvation (especially the infant mortality), and yet, there is no entry where Gaza has the worst blace, and it has the best one in many.

If you got some spare humanitarian aid, send it to Egypt instead (note: the other country blockading Gaza). Looks like they could use it a bit more, and i am sure that Israel won't mind it.

In light of this, the whole "humanitarian aid for Gaza" thing, looks more like a tribute to Hamas, so it can give a lot of good stuff to it's supporters, to keep them loyal reuctant to thinking about overthrowing them (that's what the damned Israelis want to happen).

[Kuroji]

And just to confirm that Bibi really is chugging stupid pills:

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," the officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war."

Even anonymously, no one has any business making comments like that right now. Someone needs to sack that motherfucker, I see his point in that they need to be prepared in the event that they face the same level of resistance and alter their tactics accordingly, but he phrased it so fucking badly that his entire point is lost.

[NecronLord]

I'm not going to comment on the majority of that, because I really don't have the time, but two stand-out points...

They make a hell of a lot of children , considering they are starving.

That's hooey and you know it. Very large families are characteristic poor populations. You are attempting to suggest that the fact that the Palestinians have many children means they're living well. This is not correlative and I'm pretty sure you know it, if you're not trying to be deceptive, then you're ignorant.

In light of this, the whole "humanitarian aid for Gaza" thing, looks more like a tribute to Hamas, so it can give a lot of good stuff to it's supporters, to keep them loyal reuctant to thinking about overthrowing them (that's what the damned Israelis want to happen).

Your extraordinary claim (Western NGOs deliberately give supplies to keep Hamas in power) requires extraordinary proof.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Appearantly there still isn't a concensus on who will do the objective, impartial investigation on the matter, because the US is either incredibly stupid or incredibly naive to say that the investigation should be done by Israel (or maybe they like being Israel's bitch).
How on earth would Israel (or Turkey for that matter) be an objective investigator in this matter? It's like using the investigation of a suspect of his own trial. And even if Israel would do an impartial investigation (fat chance), the results would be worthless anyway because nobody would take the results serious.

Germany would probably be the best impartial judge of the situation, but the Israelis would protest anyway. I'm sure Sarkozy will volunteer himself, though.

[madd0ct0r]

@CBG.

also taken from the CIA World Factbook:

High population density, limited land and sea access, continuing isolation, and strict internal and external security controls have degraded economic conditions in the Gaza Strip - the smaller of the two areas in the Palestinian Territories. Israeli-imposed crossings closures, which became more restrictive after HAMAS violently took over the territory in June 2007, and fighting between HAMAS and Israel during December 2008-January 2009, resulted in the near collapse of most of the private sector, extremely high unemployment, and high poverty rates. Shortages of many goods are met through the HAMAS-controlled black market tunnel trade that flourishes under the Gaza Strip's border with Egypt.

taken from amnesty international:
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/content.asp?CategoryID=973

The human rights situation in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories continues to worsen. It is over six years since the outbreak of the latest uprising, or intifada, and the Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations have effectively collapsed. The human rights situation in the Occupied Palestinian Territories - the Gaza Strip and West Bank, including East Jerusalem - has deteriorated to an unprecedented level. Prospects for a just and durable resolution of the conflict appear to be remote.

The undercurrent of violence, abuses of fundamental human rights and disregard for international law that have marked the 40-year Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, have become firmly entrenched and relentless. Civilians in both Israel and the Occupied Territories have borne the brunt of the confrontations.

and that's about as polite as they get.

[Serafina]

Of course a few photos are not enough, so let's compare some hard data (from CIA World Factbook). We will take the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and 2 of Israel's neighbours, both arab ruled and not starving. Let's say Egypt and Lebanon:

That doesn't proove shit.
Plus, that video doesn't look like it's from Gaza at all.

Birth rate:
G:36.26 births/1,000 population
E:25.02 births/1,000 population
L:15.1 births/1,000 population
W:24.91 births/1,000 population

Doesn't indicate either the available amount of food or medication.

Birth rate:
G:36.26 births/1,000 population
E:25.02 births/1,000 population
L:15.1 births/1,000 population
W:24.91 births/1,000 population

Neither does this.

Your other statistics are a little bit better - but every dope can calculate the amount of available foor per inhabitant by what get's trough the blockade, and it's just not enough.
Besides, you did not source your claims. Do so!


Besides:
It doesn't bloody matter, Israel still fired on civilians.

[CBG]

That's hooey and you know it. Very large families are characteristic poor populations.

Characteristic for poor populations NOT under blockade.

You are attempting to suggest that the fact that the Palestinians have many children means they're living well. This is not correlative and I'm pretty sure you know it, if you're not trying to be deceptive, then you're ignorant.

I know, but don't forget that i have also provided many, more or less corelated characteristics of Gaza population in the set. Like infant mortality rate, which is very correlative with starvation and malnutrition. How about that?

Your extraordinary claim (Western NGOs deliberately give supplies to keep Hamas in power) requires extraordinary proof.

They at least don't care if they help to keep Hamas in power. At least those NGO's supporting running the Israeli blockade.
But i would say that a few have been caught red handed supporting Hamas.
http://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2009/07/ ... ers%C2%BB/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hani-alma ... 18386.html
http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/js4058.htm
Of course we are not talking here about islamic charities, where IHH (the organization owning Mavi Marmara) belongs to.

also taken from the CIA World Factbook:

I have read this too. But does it say anything specifically about starvation or food shortages. And AI is certainly not the most reliable source on gaza\israel conflict.

Your other statistics are a little bit better - but every dope can calculate the amount of available foor per inhabitant by what get's trough the blockade, and it's just not enough.
Besides, you did not source your claims. Do so!

I know that some of these statistics don't prove much, but that's why i didn't post them alone, but to complete the "little bit better" ones. Especially infant mortality rate, for which malnutrition was stated by WHO as the biggest single contributor.
As you can see, infant mortality rate in Gaza Strip is not much different than for West Bank or Lebanon, and much smaller than in Egypt, all of them non blockaded countries.

Source:

Of course a few photos are not enough, so let's compare some hard data (from CIA World Factbook). We will take the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and 2 of Israel's neighbours, both arab ruled and not starving. Let's say Egypt and Lebanon:

Besides:
It doesn't bloody matter, Israel still fired on civilians.

In this case, they were by not really civilians, more like unlawful combatants. Non uniformed people attacking uniformed people with deadly force. Civilians by definition aren't supposed to fight.

[Serafina]

I have read this too. But does it say anything specifically about starvation or food shortages. And AI is certainly not the most reliable source on gaza\israel conflict.

Soo....the very same source where you got your statistics from IS NOT RELIABLE?
Damn, you are quite the moron...

Besides, your statistics are damn worthless, since IIRC, they are based on the state before the blockade.
Which is like using statistics from 2000 to claim that there is no economical crisis.

In this case, they were by not really civilians, more like unlawful combatants. Non uniformed people attacking uniformed people with deadly force. Civilians by definition aren't supposed to fight.

Bullshit.
Go read the Geneva and Hague concention. Resisting unlawfull seizing of your ship in international waters doesn't make you an "unlawfull combatant".
And unlawfull combatants can only exist in times of war. I gues Israel now thinks they are by default at war with everyone

[CBG]

Soo....the very same source where you got your statistics from IS NOT RELIABLE?
Damn, you are quite the moron...

I wonder in what paralell universe are you living in, because in mine, The World Factbook is not in any way controlled by AI.

Besides, your statistics are damn worthless, since IIRC, they are based on the state before the blockade.
Which is like using statistics from 2000 to claim that there is no economical crisis.

Could I expect you to actually check when the data was taken (i wrote TWICE where it was taken from, and the source gives such information) before you complain about it being from before the blockade?

Bullshit.
Go read the Geneva and Hague concention. Resisting unlawfull seizing of your ship in international waters doesn't make you an "unlawfull combatant".
And unlawfull combatants can only exist in times of war. I gues Israel now thinks they are by default at war with everyone

Enforcing a naval blockade is an act of war. And that's exactly what they have been doing. Seizing a ship openly trying to run a blockade they aren't very secretive about.

[Serafina]

Oooh, sorry for not getting any acronym immedeately
Either way, Amnesty International is an accredited source.
And you are still too stupid to link to your sources.

And if you read the data, you will find that most of it says 2010 estaminate or even "earlier date" estaminate.
Clearly not recent census data.

Now quoting from the World Fact Book:

High population density, limited land and sea access, continuing isolation, and strict internal and external security controls have degraded economic conditions in the Gaza Strip - the smaller of the two areas in the Palestinian Territories. Israeli-imposed crossings closures, which became more restrictive after HAMAS violently took over the territory in June 2007, and fighting between HAMAS and Israel during December 2008-January 2009, resulted in the near collapse of most of the private sector, extremely high unemployment, and high poverty rates. Shortages of many goods are met through the HAMAS-controlled black market tunnel trade that flourishes under the Gaza Strip's border with Egypt.

Even the CIA points out the problems, tough not in detail.

agriculture: 12%
industry: 5%
services: 83%

That tells us that they have next to no industry and pittyfully sparse agriculture.

Overall, these people are forcefully kept dependent on Israel, living in poverty. They might not starve, but that doesn't mean their situation is good at all.

Enforcing a naval blockade is an act of war. And that's exactly what they have been doing. Seizing a ship openly trying to run a blockade they aren't very secretive about.

Which still doesn't qualify them as unlawfull combatants - that is actually a legally defined, narrow term.
The legallity of said blockade has also been discussed in this thread.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

l blockade is an act of war. And that's exactly what they have been doing. Seizing a ship openly trying to run a blockade they aren't very secretive about.

Unfortunately that's wrong. Under international law only ships carrying war contraband may be seized, but Israel announced in advance that it would seize and divert all of the ships in the convoy, period. Without regard to whether or not they were carrying war contraband. Therefore before any resistance to the Israeli attack took place, Israel had already declared that it would ignore international law and seize the convoy regardless of the actual cargoes of the independent ships. Ships not carrying war contraband should have been cleared to dock in Gaza. The Israeli government instead ordered all of the ships to divert to Israeli ports before having ascertained that any were carrying war contraband. The Israelis violated the law of blockades because they were incensed with the prospect of letting even legitimate aid make landfall in Gaza, no other possibility may be really considered. Since the Israelis had already issued demands in violation of international law the armed defence of the ships in the convoy was quite justified.

[Vendetta]

Unfortunately that's wrong. Under international law only ships carrying war contraband may be seized, but Israel announced in advance that it would seize and divert all of the ships in the convoy, period.

I haven't seen that in any of the reports here, do you have the source for it?

[Serafina]

Unfortunately that's wrong. Under international law only ships carrying war contraband may be seized, but Israel announced in advance that it would seize and divert all of the ships in the convoy, period.

I haven't seen that in any of the reports here, do you have the source for it?

They gave the order before searching the ships.
Without searching the ships, they could not possibly know wether they contained war contraband or not.
Therefore, they orders were illegeal.

[MKSheppard]

Why not? Is the morality of bombing an entire village's population dependent on majority consensus? We have the moral imperative of protecting our own men. Protection of the enemy is at the very most a secondary consideration. That they are "civilians" is completely irrelevant when they are combatants actually attempting to kill/murder our men. That village burns. Everyone in it dies.

I see that this discussion has moved ahead quite a lot since last night/early morning, thanks to the tireless efforts of Manfred von Shroom.

If we take this village hypothetical and work with it -- you can see the utility of what Starglider mentioned much earlier about not having a binary do nothing/kill everyone switch; but instead at least having a level or two of escalation before you break out the carpet bombers and flamethrowers and sharp sticks and blast your way through the village.

Few random scattered shots? Just figure out where they're coming from, clear that house; and beat whoever's responsible over the head gibbs smack style from NCIS as you march them back to the rear lines.

Some determined resistance? Blast those houses with TOWs or chainguns until they stop shooting.

The entire village seems to be full of SHROOMANIAN YOUTH who are firing from every damn window or hole in the wall? Thats when you escalate all the way up to using direct fire large caliber weapons and calling in airstrikes on any house that isn't a pile of rubble; and then call in airstrikes to bounce the rubble.

Good example would be Aachen in WWII:

[Samuel]

agriculture: 12%
industry: 5%
services: 83%

That tells us that they have next to no industry and pittyfully sparse agriculture.

How the heck did they get those results? Is the gaza strip some sort of post industrial wonderland or does services basically count people who are unemployed and so work for whoever will provide them food and housing?

The entire village seems to be full of SHROOMANIAN YOUTH who are firing from every damn window or hole in the wall? Thats when you escalate all the way up to using direct fire large caliber weapons and calling in airstrikes on any house that isn't a pile of rubble; and then call in airstrikes to bounce the rubble.

If you don't cordon off the village first, your enemies will do that as a method to build support and get you to waste bombs on nothing.

[Vendetta]

Unfortunately that's wrong. Under international law only ships carrying war contraband may be seized, but Israel announced in advance that it would seize and divert all of the ships in the convoy, period.

I haven't seen that in any of the reports here, do you have the source for it?

They gave the order before searching the ships.
Without searching the ships, they could not possibly know wether they contained war contraband or not.
Therefore, they orders were illegeal.

I haven't heard or seen a report of there being an order to divert before boarding, or about any of the communications to the flotilla at all, that's what I'm asking for a source for.

[MKSheppard]

Eventually, the various methods being used to render the Israeli/Egyptian Blockade (bet you didn't know about the Egyptians being involved too); politically untenable; such as this convoy; will succeed if current trends continue the way they are.

This will mean that HAMASstan will have all the supplies it can get to build rockets which can strike southern Israel -- fun fact, in the aid that Israel lets through -- tin cans are banned; as is food packaged in tin cans -- because HAMAS will simply use the metal in them to build rockets with which to threaten Israel.

Fast forward a couple years, and CAST LEAD II kicks off after some nice rocket attacks on Israeli towns -- something a mere 50% bloodier than CAST LEAD would be 1,800 palestinian deaths of all types (Civilian and HAMAS); and 7,500 wounded of all types.

Sorry for quoting myself...but step 1 has already occured.

Because of the political fallout of what happened, which was deliberately instigated by the "peace activists" on that ship; Egypt has lifted it's half of the blockade against Gaza -- reopening it's boarder with Gaza for the first time in a year; "temporarily".

We'll see how long that "temporarily" lasts....

[Wing Commander MAD]

Unfortunately that's wrong. Under international law only ships carrying war contraband may be seized, but Israel announced in advance that it would seize and divert all of the ships in the convoy, period.

I haven't seen that in any of the reports here, do you have the source for it?

I believe the Isralie statement as such was mentioned in the story from an Indian news source that either Serafina or the Duchess linked to earlier in the thread.

Serafina, given his opening remarks CBG would appear to be another conservative idiot. Thus he is probably subscribing to the idiotic assertion that anyone who is defending themselves from "us" is in the wrong, even if the "us" is doing things illegally, and are as a result "them" and therefore must be the enemy.

[Stark]

So instead of the poorly considered action being a mistake ...

It's all the fault of those unarmed humanitarians who died under Israeli attack! Israel needs to kill MORE BROWN PEOPLE.

You're so fucking stupid I can't stop laughing. Is the best part you backwards attitude or your fellating your own 'strategic analysis'? Too close to call!

[CBG]

Oooh, sorry for not getting any acronym immedeately
Either way, Amnesty International is an accredited source.
And you are still too stupid to link to your sources.

And if you read the data, you will find that most of it says 2010 estaminate or even "earlier date" estaminate.
Clearly not recent census data.

Now quoting from the World Fact Book:

High population density, limited land and sea access, continuing isolation, and strict internal and external security controls have degraded economic conditions in the Gaza Strip - the smaller of the two areas in the Palestinian Territories. Israeli-imposed crossings closures, which became more restrictive after HAMAS violently took over the territory in June 2007, and fighting between HAMAS and Israel during December 2008-January 2009, resulted in the near collapse of most of the private sector, extremely high unemployment, and high poverty rates. Shortages of many goods are met through the HAMAS-controlled black market tunnel trade that flourishes under the Gaza Strip's border with Egypt.

Even the CIA points out the problems, tough not in detail.

agriculture: 12%
industry: 5%
services: 83%

That tells us that they have next to no industry and pittyfully sparse agriculture.

This doesn't prove much.
It is hard to have industry while being ruled by a de facto terrorist organization.
The blockade is in force since 2007.
And about agriculture:

agriculture: 10.9%
industry: 48.6%
services: 40.5% (2009 est.)

Guess they have pittyfully sparse agriculture too.

Overall, these people are forcefully kept dependent on Israel, living in poverty. They might not starve, but that doesn't mean their situation is good at all.

I didn't argue that they (at least majority of them) don't live in poverty. But the most loyal supporters of Hamas certainly do not, and certainly Hamas will ensure that they have the first priority for any aid Gaza might get.

Enforcing a naval blockade is an act of war. And that's exactly what they have been doing. Seizing a ship openly trying to run a blockade they aren't very secretive about.

Which still doesn't qualify them as unlawfull combatants - that is actually a legally defined, narrow term.
The legallity of said blockade has also been discussed in this thread.

And still doesn't qualify them as civilians. Civilians don't fight armed forces. Combatants do. Lawful combatants wear uniforms. So who the hell are these guys?
A blockade is an act of war, no matter if it is legal or not.

Unfortunately that's wrong. Under international law only ships carrying war contraband may be seized, but Israel announced in advance that it would seize and divert all of the ships in the convoy, period. Without regard to whether or not they were carrying war contraband. Therefore before any resistance to the Israeli attack took place, Israel had already declared that it would ignore international law and seize the convoy regardless of the actual cargoes of the independent ships. Ships not carrying war contraband should have been cleared to dock in Gaza. The Israeli government instead ordered all of the ships to divert to Israeli ports before having ascertained that any were carrying war contraband. The Israelis violated the law of blockades because they were incensed with the prospect of letting even legitimate aid make landfall in Gaza, no other possibility may be really considered. Since the Israelis had already issued demands in violation of international law the armed defence of the ships in the convoy was quite justified.

The convoy publicly announced it's cargo.
Let's see what contraband is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraband

In international law, contraband is any goods carried by vessels of neutral nations during wartime that may be confiscated by a belligerent power and thus prohibited from delivery to the enemy. Traditionally, contraband is classified into two categories, absolute contraband and conditional contraband. The former category includes arms, munitions, and various materials, such as chemicals and certain types of machinery that may be used directly to wage war or be converted into instruments of war.

Conditional contraband, formerly known as occasional contraband, consists of such materials as provisions and livestock feed. Cargo of this kind, while presumably innocent in character, is subject to seizure if, in the opinion of the belligerent nation that seizes them, the supplies are destined for the armed forces of the enemy rather than for civilian use and consumption. In former agreements among nations, certain other commodities, including soap, paper, clocks, agricultural machinery and jewelry, have been classified as non-contraband, although these distinctions have proved meaningless in practice.

Under conditions of modern warfare, in which armed conflict has largely become a struggle involving the total populations of the contending powers, virtually all commodities are classified by belligerents as absolute contraband.

Supplies delivered would be acquired by the Hamas government, which of course would give priority over them for it's armed forces. Diesel fuel? War material. Cement? War material.

Serafina, given his opening remarks CBG would appear to be another conservative idiot. Thus he is probably subscribing to the idiotic assertion that anyone who is defending themselves from "us" is in the wrong, even if the "us" is doing things illegally, and are as a result "them" and therefore must be the enemy.

Calling someone a conservative idiot. The ultimate argument in a discussion?

[MagnusTheReD]

Unfortunately that's wrong. Under international law only ships carrying war contraband may be seized, but Israel announced in advance that it would seize and divert all of the ships in the convoy, period.

I haven't seen that in any of the reports here, do you have the source for it?

They gave the order before searching the ships.
Without searching the ships, they could not possibly know wether they contained war contraband or not.
Therefore, they orders were illegeal.

Where is the point coming from?
That crafts trying to run a blockade need a positive contraband check before they can be seized and/or diverted?

Because upon checking the exact wording, the San Remo Manual (here) says that:

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband OR breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

[Zed]

Because of the political fallout of what happened, which was deliberately instigated by the "peace activists" on that ship; Egypt has lifted it's half of the blockade against Gaza -- reopening it's boarder with Gaza for the first time in a year; "temporarily".

Probably the fifth time or so I repeat myself, but people are still using the term "peace activist" in scare quotes without answering the question: where do they claim to be peace activists?

[ZGundam]

A bigger question is how far Israel willing to go to prove their point?

Will turkey provide escort to future convoys? Will Israel fire on those ships?

Will we sit back and watch the fun with popcorn and soda? Or will we take action and tell someone to stop being an ass or no more money for you? (I doubt that will happen)

Anyone else have an idea what happens next?

[Serafina]

Guess they have pittyfully sparse agriculture too.

Yeah, right - because you can totally compare a culture using modern agriculture and one who doesn't

I didn't argue that they (at least majority of them) don't live in poverty. But the most loyal supporters of Hamas certainly do not, and certainly Hamas will ensure that they have the first priority for any aid Gaza might get.

And that justifies starving the rest of the people?

Wow, you really are a ruthless immoral evil asshole.

And still doesn't qualify them as civilians. Civilians don't fight armed forces. Combatants do. Lawful combatants wear uniforms. So who the hell are these guys?
A blockade is an act of war, no matter if it is legal or not.

Bollocks.
Just because i fight someone doesn't make me not a civilian.
Say - if an woman resists a soldier taking away her baby, does that mean she is also an "unlawfull combatant" too?

Go read up the actual definition.

The convoy publicly announced it's cargo.
Let's see what contraband is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraband

Hey, jackass, look at what you yourself cited.

The former category includes arms, munitions, and various materials, such as chemicals and certain types of machinery that may be used directly to wage war or be converted into instruments of war.

This is what allows seizing it.
It was not on board.

Either way, they would have to search for it first. They did not. That automatically violates international law.
Not that Israel ever gave a shit about that.

[Stark]

CAST LEAD 2?

Oh you meant serious ideas.

Since Israel went out of their way to get as much negative press as possible, they'll likely respond with arrogance. If it was a mistake (not impossible) they'll quietly deal with it and it won't happen again.

I'd be very surprised if the next convoy (assuming there is one) is properly hit inside Israeli waters.