Boston Terror Attacks

[Flagg]

Well, apparently the dead one had some personal grievances with the US involving his being denied citizenship due to a domestic violence complaint. That also effectively ended his dream of being an Olympic Boxer. Then he goes to Russia (supposedly) for six months, comes back, and starts posting Jihadist shit on YouTube. So it sounds to me like he had very personal motives for at least becoming radicalized. Again, assuming the media is getting this story right for once.

[PeZook]

Personally, I am just relieved the whole thing did not turn out to have been a diversion to draw law enforcement resources before a series of mass shootings occured all over the state.

[Kamakazie Sith]

In this particular case it is reasonable to believe that other unexploded devices may exist and to protect life he will not be reminded of his civil rights. Now questions not related to active devices should not be asked.

So how is this actually supposed to work? Your rights aren't a magic incantation; he can just be exactly as silent as he would be anyway.

Unless, y'know, 'enhanced' methods are used.

How it is suppose to work is law enforcement must advise you of your rights when you are in custody and being questioned. The state must prove this happened, otherwise, if it did not or they are unable to prove this then any statements made will be surpressed.

Usually proving for minor crimes is as simple as documenting the time the suspect was advised of his rights per Miranda and if he decided to answer question or remain silent.

In major cases a recording is generally required.

You are right though. He can't be forced to talk. All this means is that any answers to questions related to unexploded devices won't be surpressed.

[Kamakazie Sith]

In this particular case it is reasonable to believe that other unexploded devices may exist and to protect life he will not be reminded of his civil rights. Now questions not related to active devices should not be asked.

So how is this actually supposed to work? Your rights aren't a magic incantation; he can just be exactly as silent as he would be anyway.

Unless, y'know, 'enhanced' methods are used.

Yeah, I don't agree with the application of the public safety shit in this case. It's clearly designed for when someone is in imminent danger and Mirandizing them would take necessary time away from getting the information.

Given that these individual used a number of explosive devices against police I think it will be easy to articulate a public safety need. I imagine the concern is that he discarded other devices on the properties that he fled through and/or setup traps for police.

You can read an explanation of it here. Source

[Channel72]

Do you *know* that's the reason?

What if it's just two disaffected guys who decided to be murderous?

What if it's because they just had really strong feelings about marathons?

What if it comes out that they had some serious and legitimate grievance and lashed out in entirely the wrong way?

You know fuck all about their motives aside from what has been speculated about based on ethnicity, religion and some rumoured travel that had been undertaken. Such suspicions may (and probably will) end up being justified but at this point we don't know for sure.

Yeah, you're probably right. It's likely the motivation behind this tragedy was related to growing resentment against marathon runners, and not any sort of pan-Muslim Jihad mentality. I mean we just don't know, right??

Also, please incorporate more political correctness into your next post.

[Stark]

How it is suppose to work is law enforcement must advise you of your rights when you are in custody and being questioned. The state must prove this happened, otherwise, if it did not or they are unable to prove this then any statements made will be surpressed.

Usually proving for minor crimes is as simple as documenting the time the suspect was advised of his rights per Miranda and if he decided to answer question or remain silent.

In major cases a recording is generally required.

You are right though. He can't be forced to talk. All this means is that any answers to questions related to unexploded devices won't be surpressed.

I'm aware of your procedures, so I don't see what actual utility is has not doing it. Don't people literally read it from a card while people are being led away? Its a dead and meaningless ritual that is nevertheless a part of your system... and its been suspended for a reason that doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me.

I mean you haven't told him about the rights he certainly knows about but you always tell people because it's due process and rights are important. The end result of this needless omission is that the requirement that evidence he gives after you didn't do something for no reason won't be ignored, as would otherwise be necessary. Um, yay?

Maybe you should just stop doing it all the time, because skipping it and then skipping the ramifications of skipping it just shows how meaningless it is, along with turning on the big sign that says RESPECT FOR INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS.

It just sounds like he wasn't read his rights because we hate him and we'd rather he didn't have any, which is... absolutely comical.

[Formless]

Their uncle was saying its a Harris and Klebold type of thing: two losers who just hate people. Of course, the rest of their family is convinced they were framed by the Secret Service, but still. Their uncle is a bit closer to these kids then you are, Mr Ironic.

This isn't a matter of political correctness. This is a matter of factual correctness. We simply don't bloody know what motivated them, and won't know until the guy recovers enough to say something. Preferably in court.

[CaptHawkeye]

Do you *know* that's the reason?

What if it's just two disaffected guys who decided to be murderous?

What if it's because they just had really strong feelings about marathons?

What if it comes out that they had some serious and legitimate grievance and lashed out in entirely the wrong way?

You know fuck all about their motives aside from what has been speculated about based on ethnicity, religion and some rumoured travel that had been undertaken. Such suspicions may (and probably will) end up being justified but at this point we don't know for sure.

Yeah, you're probably right. It's likely the motivation behind this tragedy was related to growing resentment against marathon runners, and not any sort of pan-Muslim Jihad mentality. I mean we just don't know, right??

Also, please incorporate more political correctness into your next post.

Oh please, the media pronounced that it was Islamic Jihadists days before anyone knew if they were even foreigners. That is totally indicative of a cultural mentality towards Arab minorities that can be summed up with the phrase "guilty until proven innocent". So forgive Ando, or myself, or anyone else who is rather quite skeptical of the media footnotes thus far. It's not as if it's unheard of or even infrequent for the news media to pass off opinions as fact. Then they bury those opinions as deeply and as early as possible in the news cycle so they get around the most and stick around the longest.

[Channel72]

Firstly, they're Chechnyan, not Arab. The cultural mentality isn't so much predisposed to being skeptical of Arabs as it is to any sort of religiously-inclined Muslims. Russia has had a problem with Chechnyan Jihadists since the 90s. Secondly, the first couple of days after the bombing, nobody knew who it was. My first thought was just some random idiot who wanted to kill people, as opposed to a political statement.

But really, who wants to bet the motivation wasn't in some way colored by an anti-American Jihadist mentality? Yes, I'm aware that there are many alternative motivations for terrorism or mass-murder, but a Jihadist mentality is one of the most common motivations in the early 21st century, and the dead elder brother is known to have posted Jihad nonsense on the Internet. So why are we bending over backwards to entertain unlikely alternatives? Does it make you feel more enlightened or something?

[loomer]

Religiously-inclined Muslims? Would that not be all muslims by default?

[Channel72]

No. Hundreds of millions of people would probably identify themselves as de-facto "Muslim", but don't give too much of a shit about religion, just like the hundreds of millions of Catholics and other Christians that don't give a shit. I call myself "Jewish" but I also don't give a shit.

[Stark]

So why are we bending over backwards to entertain unlikely alternatives? Does it make you feel more enlightened or something?

Probably because speculating based on news reports is building fantasies on top of unreliable information. Does it make you feel safer or better that you believe you 'know' 'why' this happened?

[loomer]

No. Hundreds of millions of people would probably identify themselves as de-facto "Muslim", but don't give too much of a shit about religion, just like the hundreds of millions of Catholics and other Christians that don't give a shit. I identify myself as "Jewish" but I also don't give a shit.

If you don't follow the torah, you aren't religiously Jewish. Ethnically, maybe - depending on if you are - but not religiously. You should probably stop identifying yourself with a religion you don't actually follow.

[Channel72]

Probably because speculating based on news reports is building fantasies on top of unreliable information.

Are you saying that you have good reasons to doubt the specific information provided by the media which indicates the dead suspect was a devout Muslim with a history of posting Jihadist crap on Youtube? If you don't doubt this, then it's hardly unreasonable to conclude that a Jihadist mentality is a very likely motivation for this bombing.

Does it make you feel safer or better that you believe you 'know' 'why' this happened?

Yes. I sleep better at night knowing that ill-advised US/British foreign policy along with the tenets of a 1,400 year old Prophet have conspired to produce a situation where thousands of young men are seduced by a radical religious agenda that encourages random acts of violence in an era when knowledge of chemical explosives is widely dispersed.

[Formless]

No. Hundreds of millions of people would probably identify themselves as de-facto "Muslim", but don't give too much of a shit about religion, just like the hundreds of millions of Catholics and other Christians that don't give a shit. I call myself "Jewish" but I also don't give a shit.

You need to realize that one of these three religions links its faith to a specific ethnic community, and the other two explicitly don't. Then realize how that might color your perceptions of religion in general.

[Channel72]

You need to realize that one of these three religions links its faith to a specific ethnic community, and the other two explicitly don't

Who cares? A lot of religious affiliations are closely linked with ethnic affiliations. Italians/Irish are closely linked with Catholicism and Arabs are closely linked with Islam. Nobody cares about the 10% Coptic Christians in Egypt or the large population of Christian Arabs in Lebanon or Jews in Iran, for example. The religio-ethnic connection is not simply a Jewish phenomenom in the cultural psyche, despite the fact that Judaism is uniquely linked with a certain ethinic/tribal lineage rather a history of conversions/evangelism. Regardless, the Jihadist/fundamentalist brand of Islam is a unique post-colonial movement that is pretty strongly connected with various organizations and cultural centers within the Islamic world. So what fucking point are you trying to make anyway?

[Stark]

Are you saying that you have good reasons to doubt the specific information provided by the media which indicates the dead suspect was a devout Muslim with a history of posting Jihadist crap on Youtube? If you don't doubt this, then it's hardly unreasonable to conclude that a Jihadist mentality is a very likely motivation for this bombing.

Call me crazy, but I think bullshit speculation is useless. Personally I don't care what his motives are. Your motives in ascribing him 'likely' motives are far more interesing.

Yes. I sleep better at night knowing that ill-advised US/British foreign policy along with the tenets of a 1,400 year old Prophet have conspired to produce a situation where thousands of young men are seduced by a radical religious agenda that encourages random acts of violence in an era when knowledge of chemical explosives is widely dispersed.

There are more constructive ways to manage your anxieties, that's all I'm saying.

EDIT - oh nevermind I mistook you for someone with a desire for dialog.

[Channel72]

Call me crazy, but I think bullshit speculation is useless. Personally I don't care what his motives are.

So are you saying the information regarding the elder brother's Jihadist sympathies which has been dispersed by the media is incorrect, or not? Or are you simply saying that nobody should opine/speculate about this at all unless they are employed by the Boston PD or FBI, in which case why the fuck does this thread even fucking exist?

Your motives in ascribing him 'likely' motives are far more interesing.

Yeah, you got me. I hate all Chechnyans Arabs and think every Muslim is a terrorist.

[Formless]

The one that sailed over your head: that if a Jew stops identifying with the Jewish religion, they continue to identify as a Jew ethnically, and it is valid to do so. When a Christian or Muslim stops identifying with their religion, the only thing stopping them from identifying as an agnostic or an atheist would be lack of exposure to such ideas and concepts... and lack of exposure means they default to their upbringing. Your analogy doesn't work because the very act of identifying with these religions implies either a stake in the matter, or ignorance, and usually both. Which means Lancer's original point cannot be ignored.

[Stark]

So are you saying the information regarding the elder brother's Jihadist sympathies which has been dispersed by the media is incorrect, or not? Or are you simply saying that nobody should opine/speculate about this at all unless they are employed by the Boston PD or FBI, in which case why the fuck does this thread even fucking exist?

No, I'm saying your hysteria and condemnation are not data. No matter how angry it makes you that someone might be 'politically correct' by not condemning someone out of hand without trial, this is quite literally what makes our society (well, ostensibly) better than terrorists. Since being angry and pointing fingers achieves basically nothing and just makes you look like you don't believe a trial is necessary, why do it?

Yeah, you got me. I hate all Chechnyans Arabs and think every Muslim is a terrorist.

You sure have a strong interest in being 'right' and able to say the 'right' things. In many cases this allows people to feel that they have some control over events they can't possibly control, or that senseless events make sense. Its not wrong to manage anxiety in this way, so long as you can appreciate that's what you're doing.

Along with looking like a wanker, I mean.

[Alyeska]

If reports from CNN are accurate (yeah, what a joke), it would appear the living suspect has a throat injury from his battles with the police. He was further described as intubated and sedated.

Yeah, I don't know if they are ever going to get a chance to talk to him without a Miranda warning at this point. The kids family is probably going to hire him a lawyer and that will put a damper on things.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/20/us/boston ... ?hpt=hp_t1

[Channel72]

The one that sailed over your head: that if a Jew stops identifying with the Jewish religion, they continue to identify as a Jew ethnically, and it is valid to do so. When a Christian or Muslim stops identifying with their religion, the only thing stopping them from identifying as an agnostic or an atheist would be lack of exposure to such ideas and concepts... and lack of exposure means they default to their upbringing. Your analogy doesn't work because the very act of identifying with these religions implies either a stake in the matter, or ignorance, and usually both. Which means Lancer's original point cannot be ignored.

What you describe as "defaulting to their upbringing" is pretty much equivalent, psychologically speaking, to identifying with a certain ethnicity. So again, who cares? A de-facto Muslim who doesn't really care that much about religion, but sill identifies as "Muslim" out of habit or cultural ties is pretty much analagous, psychologically speaking, to an atheist Jew who still calls himself "Jewish" out of convenience - like myself. Again, what point are you trying to make?

[weemadando]

Also, please incorporate more political correctness into your next post.

The fact that you try and address my criticism as political correctness and not as, you know, CRITICISM and view political correctness as some sort of put-down tells me everything I need to know about you. It's been nice talking.

[loomer]

What's interesting for me personally on this is the domestic nature of it. I'll be watching the policy changes closely since there's a non-zero chance we might see some have an impact here (our government has, unfortunately, a bit of a history of joining on using foreign terrorism to limit civil rights).

But I'm especially interested in learning how. Are they purely domestic or did the brother actually receive some training? Where'd they learn to make the bombs (Inspire, a 'stupid teens blow shit up' forum, the old manuals that've been floating around in hard and digital form for quite a long time?), what explosive did they end up making, etcetera? It's rather ghoulish but I've always found the technicalities of such things interesting from an intellectual perspective, especially the way it can reveal problems in existing monitoring schemes (Especially in the modern digital age).

[Channel72]

So are you saying the information regarding the elder brother's Jihadist sympathies which has been dispersed by the media is incorrect, or not? Or are you simply saying that nobody should opine/speculate about this at all unless they are employed by the Boston PD or FBI, in which case why the fuck does this thread even fucking exist?

No, I'm saying your hysteria and condemnation are not data. No matter how angry it makes you that someone might be 'politically correct' by not condemning someone out of hand without trial, this is quite literally what makes our society (well, ostensibly) better than terrorists. Since being angry and pointing fingers achieves basically nothing and just makes you look like you don't believe a trial is necessary, why do it?

I never said a trial isn't necessary. I said: based on the information provided via the media, it's highly likely that the suspect was motivated by a Jihadist mentality. Just because I personally believe it's highly likely that Dzhokhar is guilty and was motivated by a Jihadist mentality, doesn't mean I don't think he should get a trial - any more than I don't think OJ Simpson should have been put on trial despite the fact that he was pretty much obviously guilty. I haven't been called to be an unbiased juror - I'm just a random guy posting his opinion on the Internet.

You sure have a strong interest in being 'right' and able to say the 'right' things. In many cases this allows people to feel that they have some control over events they can't possibly control, or that senseless events make sense. Its not wrong to manage anxiety in this way, so long as you can appreciate that's what you're doing.

Everyone pretty much has a strong interest in being "right". But what exactly are you trying to say here? Certain tragedies are "senseless", in the sense that the perpetrators are motivated by mostly incomprehensible psychological problems, like that idiot who shot those kids in Connecticut. But that doesn't mean every act of violence is incomprehensibly random. Osama bin Laden had a specific geopolitical agenda - and a lot of the terrorist acts we've seen in Madrid, Bali, and now Boston (probably) are inspired by a similar (but often more vaguely defined) pro-Islamic, anti-American agenda which generally seeks to inflict as much harm as possible on American citizens in retaliation for perceived (justified or not) wrongs that America has inflicted on the Islamic world.