ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Channel72
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Channel72 »

Stas Bush wrote: No. I think there is a system of self-censorship, where the journalists tend to ignore topics that may give them trouble with their superiors. If a narrative has been already formed in the media, then events that disrupt the narrative will be overlooked. This happens to other nations' media all the time too. For example, the 'US captured Iraq to keep oil and stay in ME forever' narrative was a long-playing one in the Russian media. Its quiet demise was tied to the fact that too many events started disrupting the narrative. So while there isn't a nefarious plot, the media usually (1) pick a narrative (2) go with it (3) ignore facts that don't fit. And point one - they usually pick the narrative of the government when it comes to foreign policy. Not always, not everywhere. But they usually do.
In that case, I totally agree. I was under the impression you were arguing that the US government was explicitly censoring the media, since you seemed to be implying that the media can be "told" what to do.

Regardless, certain news organizations are less self-censoring than others - but you're right; most news organizations will tend to ignore or downplay stories that (A) are deemed too "uninteresting" to attract viewers, or (B) disrupt the "canonical" narrative that the organization prefers. I think (B) happens to a greater extent with more partisan organizations, like Fox or MSNBC. In practice, however, there is a hard limit to the amount of "self-censoring" that any particular mainstream news organization can pull off, because their competitors may not censor the same stories. If, for example, some particular event happens which is "really bad" for the conservative narrative (like, let's say an evangelical Christian bombs an abortion clinic and ends up killing children), then conservative media like Fox will probably be forced to cover it, because their competitors will cover it.

However, I agree that with Islamists/Jihadists (whatever) in particular, the US media has a certain weakness, which I think you are alluding to: the US media tends to side with "underdogs" over tyrannical dictators, even if the underdogs are murderous assholes. And this tendency actually affects policy; secular dictators like Saddam Hussein or Assad, despite the fact that they are brutal, paranoid psychopaths, are arguably better than Islamic fundamentalist groups like ISIS; (Saddam Hussein, after all, created a well-functioning state with a decent standard of living, women's rights, high literacy rate/education, religious tolerance), but since the American public has a hard time understanding that, it's easier to just choose a bad guy and go with it. (And dictators make better "bad guys" than underdog rebels, even if the underdog rebels are in favor of beheading everyone who doesn't pray 5 times a day.)
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Come to think of it, Stas, I'm actually somewhat more understanding of your earlier stated belief that the US is intentionally trying to fuck up the Middle East by supporting Jihadists. I suppose that from an outsider perspective, that's sort of what it looks like.

The mundane truth, however, is that the US is just so horribly naive when it comes to dealing with Muslim populations. The US seems to have this unstated axiomatic belief that the only thing preventing world peace right now is basically fascism or authoritarianism: fascist/autocratic dictators are the number one political problem in this world, and if they suddenly disappeared, the world would default to a nice, happy state of democracy and peace.

Unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way. There are a huge number of Arab Muslim men who simply want an Islamic theocracy. Saddam Hussein knew this - which is why he created a police state and ruled with an iron fist (that..., and he was an asshole). But the US just doesn't seem to get this, which is really fucking bizarre.

Anyway, I'll leave off with this utterly hilarious quote from Dick Cheney in 1991:
Dick Cheney in 1991 wrote:I think that the proposition of going to Baghdad is also fallacious. I think if we we're going to remove Saddam Hussein we would have had to go all the way to Baghdad, we would have to commit a lot of force because I do not believe he would wait in the Presidential Palace for us to arrive. I think we'd have had to hunt him down. And once we'd done that and we'd gotten rid of Saddam Hussein and his government, then we'd have had to put another government in its place. What kind of government? Should it be a Sunni government or Shi'i government or a Kurdish government or Ba'athist regime? Or maybe we want to bring in some of the Islamic fundamentalists? How long would we have had to stay in Baghdad to keep that government in place? What would happen to the government once U.S. forces withdrew? How many casualties should the United States accept in that effort to try to create clarity and stability in a situation that is inherently unstable? I think it is vitally important for a President to know when to use military force. I think it is also very important for him to know when not to commit U.S. military force. And it's my view that the President got it right both times, that it would have been a mistake for us to get bogged down in the quagmire inside Iraq.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by madd0ct0r »

the most interesting thing about stas's second graph is that if you cut the timezone looked at to 2012-2014, you can see that recently jihadists HAS overtaken rebels, which is a lot closer to the evidence he was aiming for in the first place.
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q= ... 36m&cmpt=q

search volume is really low though, so take that with a pinch of salt. a couple of teachers doing class projects could probably dent it.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by K. A. Pital »

Yeah, it does seem that there is more news about jihadists recently. Though, of course, not 'Syrian jihadists', but like I said, the connection between the recent rise of IS in Iraq and its rather long-lasting Sharia reign in half of Syria has been thoroughly muffled - we had people on this very forum asking whether the IS were among the Syrian rebels, after all.
Channel72 wrote:Anyway, I'll leave off with this utterly hilarious quote from Dick Cheney in 1991
Perfect. I could not have said this better than Cheney. But really, it seems (unless the speech was written by a PR manager and Cheney is just a talking head) the man fully understood the problems that will arise in Iraq. And in general seemed to be well aware of the sectarian and ethnic tensions in the nation. So how come he became one of the most aggressive and blind hawks? Well... my version is that he saw an opportunity to enrich and empower self through that war; but he knew the end result would be disastrous.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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With Cheney in particular, you may very well be correct. As a shareholder in Haliburton, he certainly had a lot to gain from the war. Or it could simply be that he realized the rest of the Bush administration was dead-set on invading Iraq, and he simply went along with it and hoped for the best. Or it could be Cheney changed his mind and thought the effort would be worth it after 9/11, in order to assert American dominance in the region. (A lot of people changed their political orientations/opinions after 9/11.) We'll never know.

But back to the media: words also carry a lot of weight. When Jihadists fight against Assad or a brutal dictator, they're called "rebels". Then we sympathize, and imagine things like the American Revolution or the Galactic Rebellion in Star Wars, fighting the evil, oppressive Empire. But when those same Jihadists fight against Americans (like in Iraq), then we call them terrorists or insurgents, which calls to mind an entirely different narrative - basically brutal killers/thugs with AK-47s.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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In hindsight, it's hard to believe the utter incompetence of the United States in terms of handling the Middle East. Ever since the latter-half of the Cold War, there's been a burgeoning movement of Islamic fundamentalism from North Africa to Mesopotamia. For the most part, this movement was held in check by brutal dictators who didn't hesitate to slaughter any resistance. The problem is these dictators tended to do things (like gas thousands of Kurds) which were so horrific, they caught worldwide media attention - clearly placing them in the category of "bad guy". Then of course, Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait because of fucking ego-issues, pretty much cementing his role as "evil". So we have a volatile region, filled with religious extremists, and order is maintained by various mini-Stalins (Assad, Hussein, Mubarak, Qaddafi) who don't hesitate to kill/oppress anyone who opposes them. For the most part, at least in Iraq, this actually created a decent standard of living for many people - people in Iraq enjoyed a relatively prosperous (if cautious) existence, with great education and religious tolerance. (As long as you didn't say anything against Saddam, or were unlucky enough to go to a party where one of his out-of-control sons was shooting up the place...)

Clearly, the rise of Islamic fundamentalism is entirely antagonistic to US interests. If the US were to enact an utterly self-serving, ruthless foreign policy - it would have to be something like: (1) support as many brutal secular dictators as possible, and (2) secretly finance and assist with the slaughter and oppression of Jihadist movements throughout the region.

The problem is, the media would make this policy very unstable - and the individual personalities and ambitions of each dictator is too difficult to manage. Assad basically tried to slaughter Jihadists, but any mass slaughter of rebels is going to garner negative media attention in the West, and there's no way a US politician can publically endorse this. I guess the idea behind the 2003 Iraq War was to setup a solid, functioning US-friendly democracy that would be powerful enough to resist Jihadists. Well... that totally failed. The Jihadists are simply too well-armed and numerous, and capable of winning over the hearts and minds of many Muslims - it's like the same problem the Mexican government has with the cartels. So far, it seems only totally ruthless dictators who are willing to commit crimes against humanity (something the West will try to avoid) seem to be capable of maintaining order in the region.

I suppose when Obama withdrew from Iraq (under insane political pressure to do so) he was really just keeping his fingers crossed that the government would remain stable (at least until he was out of office.) When that didn't happen (which like, fucking everyone knew would be the case...), our options are to just sit back, cut our losses, and let IS murder their way to statehood. Or, we could continue our current course, use airstrikes to cripple ISIS, arm the Kurds and the Iraqis, and hope for minimal unintended consequences. I vote for the latter.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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You must understand, though, I don't mind the current course. I mind what happened before.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Stas Bush wrote:You must understand, though, I don't mind the current course. I mind what happened before.
So does everybody in the west except for GOP members, Stas.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Thanas wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:You must understand, though, I don't mind the current course. I mind what happened before.
So does everybody in the west except for GOP members, Stas.
The 'before' part includes a huge part of Obama's term. Not that I am very picky, but people who describe those that behead in the name of Allah as 'rebels' and imply that it is necessary to support them will never ever earn any respect from me. Not the first time it happened (in Afghanistan, where they toppled a rather secular Najibullah), neither the second, third, fourth or whatever time it happens. My opposition to islamists is near absolute. This is why I actually at first supported the US involvement in Afghanistan (except that one failed to deliver anything but a narco-state).
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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I think that Obama really tried to support the secular rebels only. Then that movement died, so the USA stopped supporting them. I think what happened here is that everybody, including Assad, vastly underestimated the power of ISIS.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Thanas wrote:I think that Obama really tried to support the secular rebels only. Then that movement died, so the USA stopped supporting them. I think what happened here is that everybody, including Assad, vastly underestimated the power of ISIS.
I think the problem is more that Assad has made it all but impossible for a US president to support him. He slaughters protestors and violently silences his political opponents, which is going to instantly alienate him from the West. The West can't stand fascist shit like that - and the media will pick up on it and paint Assad as a "really bad guy", even though many of the protestors he killed were probably murderous Jihadist thugs willing to engage in their own atrocities.

So we have to either (1) support Assad, (2) try to only support the rebels who are not associated with radical Islam. Doing (2) requires surgical precision on a level that is not possible. Basically we'd have to channel support to the Free Syrian Army while trying to avoid supporting Al Nusra and the Mujahideen and ISIS, who are more numerous, have more training in guerrilla-style warfare, are way more willing to commit atrocities, and are...um, utterly dangerous and mostly batshit insane for lack of a better description.

So the harsh reality is that it's probably better to support Assad at this point, against Islamic Front and ISIS, (like the Russians have been doing). Assad is obviously a brutal asshole, but he's a secular asshole, and the best longterm solution for Syria is probably to back the strongest secular faction, and then slowly see if we can pressure them to impose more democratic reforms like term limits and such.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Channel72 wrote:Assad is obviously a brutal asshole, but he's a secular asshole, and the best longterm solution for Syria is probably to back the strongest secular faction, and then slowly see if we can pressure them to impose more democratic reforms like term limits and such.
Sadly, all that often does is freezing the development of the country, only making the number of fundamentalists larger and more radicalised. Was there any country where trying to introduce secularism by force succeeded once that force was removed?

Anyway, Germans sent 100+ armored transports, 16.000 rifles, 300 anti-tank rocket launchers, and thousands of MGs, mortars, pistols, and other support weapons [link]. This is only German part, USA, UK, Australia and France also sent help. It's enough to arm 3 motorized divisions, and it's just the beginning of arms transfers.

Funny enough, it's larger military help than even Kiev's inflated numbers of Russian support. Whatever happened to 'arming ethnic rebels wanting statehood' being bad? :twisted:
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Irbis wrote:
Channel72 wrote:Assad is obviously a brutal asshole, but he's a secular asshole, and the best longterm solution for Syria is probably to back the strongest secular faction, and then slowly see if we can pressure them to impose more democratic reforms like term limits and such.
Sadly, all that often does is freezing the development of the country, only making the number of fundamentalists larger and more radicalised. Was there any country where trying to introduce secularism by force succeeded once that force was removed?
This assumes that ISIS-style extremist theocracies are some kind of "default natural state" in the Middle East, which is historically simply not true. With some exceptions (notably Wahabiist KSA of course, which is nowhere near as bad as ISIS), they are actually mostly a recent phenomenon.

Consider Syria's neighbor, Jordan. Jordan is literally like, the perfect Middle Eastern state from a US perspective. US-friendly, compliant, mostly-secular, and the Hashemite monarchy doesn't regularly slaughter protestors. Even though many of the key figures in ISIS/Al-Qaeda In Iraq (like Zarqawi) originally came from Jordan, Jordan never seems to be a hotbed of religious extremism and civil unrest. Cities like Amman and Aqabah are nice places with a well functioning infrastructure. And unlike KSA, Jordan is fairly secular; women have the same rights as men, there's great religious tolerance (Amman has many Christian communities.)

So why is Jordan so "successful" while Syria (which is a few hours drive away) is always such a mess? There's no simple answer to that question, but I suspect that at least part of it is directly attributable to economics: Jordan has a higher GDP, more opportunities, and a high score on the HDI, whereas Syria mostly sucks. And this creates a feedback loop. US companies like Yahoo setup offices in Jordan, creating even more opportunity. Chalk it up to better governing on the part of the Hashemites along with a lot of foreign aid - but for some reason you don't get the kind of civil unrest and religious extremism, because everyone has a better lifestyle on a day-to-day basis.

Iraq could have potentially gone the same way, especially with all their oil reserves, except Saddam Hussein was a psychopathic asshole who kept pissing off the US.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Channel72 wrote:This assumes that ISIS-style extremist theocracies are some kind of "default natural state" in the Middle East, which is historically simply not true. With some exceptions (notably Wahabiist KSA of course, which is nowhere near as bad as ISIS), they are actually mostly a recent phenomenon.
Not natural state in itself, more like natural state after secular suppression for so long. You see the same in ex-Soviet states, despite forced atheism quite a few of them had backwards religious resurgence of a kind not seen in the west since XIX century. Secularism just didn't have chance to develop there 'naturally'.

Though, I guess there are some successful examples of regions or even small states where the society changed successfully, it still doesn't look like western secularism and I think it succeeded mostly due to cohesiveness of smaller communities that are also easier to convert.

As for economical progress helping that, I don't think it's right. Iran at the time of '79 revolution was quite rich. States that are most supportive to extremist Islam are also quite rich. Jordan? It's 140 out of 196 countries on freedom of speech scale, has censored internet, discriminates its population on ethnical basis, and I am not sure it's all that stable. I guess it would rank favourably among other Arab states, though.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Irbis wrote:As for economical progress helping that, I don't think it's right. Iran at the time of '79 revolution was quite rich. States that are most supportive to extremist Islam are also quite rich. Jordan? It's 140 out of 196 countries on freedom of speech scale, has censored internet, discriminates its population on ethnical basis, and I am not sure it's all that stable. I guess it would rank favourably among other Arab states, though.
I think it's important how you define "progress". If it is just high GDP per capita it is not enough to avoid a dictatorship. In fact it might be counter-productive. The arab countries and Iran are dependent on one industry, oil. That means a lot of economic power and thus political power is focused on one sector. That makes a power grab much easier and much more rewarding. It's notable that Iran with it's more diverse economy also had a stronger civil society and it took some time till the ayatollahs could finally secure their rule.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Irbis wrote:Though, I guess there are some successful examples of regions or even small states where the society changed successfully, it still doesn't look like western secularism and I think it succeeded mostly due to cohesiveness of smaller communities that are also easier to convert.

As for economical progress helping that, I don't think it's right. Iran at the time of '79 revolution was quite rich. States that are most supportive to extremist Islam are also quite rich. Jordan? It's 140 out of 196 countries on freedom of speech scale, has censored internet, discriminates its population on ethnical basis, and I am not sure it's all that stable. I guess it would rank favourably among other Arab states, though.
Meh... the Jordanian government barely censors anything on the Internet, nothing like the extent of censorship you see in Saudi Arabia. And a lot of the stuff they censor is things that even European governments censor, like hate sites and whatnot.

I'm not saying Jordan is some bastion of liberal thinking (far from it), but it's relatively highly-developed and has a good human rights record for the region. (It's also not entirely cohesive, there is the element of the Palestinians who are generally poorer on average than the native Jordanians.)

But I see your point about rich states and Islamic extremism. Still, I can't help but lean towards thinking that highly specific circumstances are more reponsible here rather than any general post-WW1 pan-Arab/Muslim orientation towards extremism. The rich gulf states have a history of extremism generally because of Wahabiism/Salafism which, due to highly coincidental circumstances (basically an obscure sect of devout religious extremists in Nejd happened to align themselves with the house of Saud, who suddenly found themselves to be billionaires in control of much of the world's oil supply) turned out to be way more influential than anyone in Ottoman times would have suspected.

As for the '79 Iranian revolution: again, I would look at the specific circumstances. (Also, there is a lot of discontentment among Iranian youth today with the current theocratic regime.) That being said, the Iranian revolution has always struck me as something of a weird anomaly as far as revolutions go: we can identify the exact causes (basically the Shah being viewed as a Western puppet, which he was, to be fair) but the economic conditions were very unusual for a revolution, as you mentioned.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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BTW, I'm surprised we don't hear more conspiracy theories about the '79 Iranian revolution being arranged by the Soviets or something.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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That is because one has to be a complete idiot to subscribe to that theory. The Iranian communists were tortured, brutally slaughtered and the smartest of them fled the country. Those which weren't smart enough to quickly leave were later forced to sing praises to Allah the merciful on Iran's national television live.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Stas Bush wrote:That is because one has to be a complete idiot to subscribe to that theory. The Iranian communists were tortured, brutally slaughtered and the smartest of them fled the country. Those which weren't smart enough to quickly leave were later forced to sing praises to Allah the merciful on Iran's national television live.
How exactly is killing and torturing communists a sign it's not a socialist revolution? That's usually the sign that the revolution reached phase 2 and the party gets cleaned from heretics and dissidents. (Not that I disagree that you have to be a total idiot to subscribe to that theory.)
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Welf wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:That is because one has to be a complete idiot to subscribe to that theory. The Iranian communists were tortured, brutally slaughtered and the smartest of them fled the country. Those which weren't smart enough to quickly leave were later forced to sing praises to Allah the merciful on Iran's national television live.
How exactly is killing and torturing communists a sign it's not a socialist revolution? That's usually the sign that the revolution reached phase 2 and the party gets cleaned from heretics and dissidents. (Not that I disagree that you have to be a total idiot to subscribe to that theory.)
It's one thing when communists kill each other in a power struggle; it is a totally different thing if they are killed by theocratic fanatics who think communism was invented by the devil, just as atheism was.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Stas Bush wrote:It's one thing when communists kill each other in a power struggle; it is a totally different thing if they are killed by theocratic fanatics who think communism was invented by the devil, just as atheism was.
Well yes; I just meant you need to be a bit more precise because "killing communists" alone is not sufficient to distinguish a communist from another revolution. You need to say "they killed every communist and didn't claimed to be communists themselves".
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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The topic of journalism came up earlier in this thread, and the other day I stumbled across an article by Francesca Borri about the... well I would say 'challenges' but that's doing her work a disservice, it's more like the damned near impossibility of doing her job in Syria. It is, suffice it to say, not a very pleasant read. It gives a good impression of what war reporting really is, though.

EDIT: here's an AP article on pretty much the same issue.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Channel72 »

Stas Bush wrote:That is because one has to be a complete idiot to subscribe to that theory. The Iranian communists were tortured, brutally slaughtered and the smartest of them fled the country. Those which weren't smart enough to quickly leave were later forced to sing praises to Allah the merciful on Iran's national television live.
Who cares? Conspiracy theory thinking only requires some kind of vague motive ("the Soviets wanted to fuck with the US by getting rid of the Shah, and realign Iran politically as anti-US and potentially pro-Soviet..."). Inconvenient facts (the revolution was theocratic, not communist) can be ignored.
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Irbis
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Irbis »

Meanwhile, things get even worse:
'We Will Kill Them as Soon as the Cameras Aren't Here': Anti-Arab Sentiment On Rise In Iraqi Kurdistan

The Islamic State (IS) militants that overran the majority Kurdish town of Makhmour, northern Iraq in August had help. Local residents say that a number of local Sunni Arabs helped the extremists in the lead up to the attack, supplying them with information on terrain and security forces in the area as well as with food and fuel.

IS are now gone. Kurdish forces retook the town a few days later, and it is once again controlled by local peshmerga militia. Resentment over this betrayal, however, is still strong. On a tattered sofa in courtyard of a base which IS had briefly occupied, one grizzled peshmerga fighter smoked cigarettes in the harsh sunlight and calmly explained to VICE News that he and others would like to expel all Arabs from the region in the most ruthless way possible.

"90 percent of Kurds are now dedicated to the same brutality towards Arabs as they showed to us... We want the destruction of those dogs. We will kill them as soon as the cameras aren't here," he said referring to the influx of media that descended on the region when IS launched a shock offensive into Kurdish territory.

The fighter's resentment towards his Arab neighbours was not new. He said he had battled the troops of former Iraqi autocrat Saddam Hussein in the 1990s and rolled up his sleeves to show scars from where they had tortured him. The latest collaboration with IS, however, was insufferable. "We tolerated them before… but now we will take our revenge… We will kick all Arabs out. A war of ethnic identities is approaching."

It is an extreme sentiment, but one that is symptomatic of a general increase in anti-Arab feeling amongst some Kurds since the rise of IS, leading to demonstrations, social media campaigns and increasingly harsh treatment from members of the security forces.

Of course this is not universal, nor is it official policy, although rumours of tighter employment and residency laws for Arabs circulate. Lawmakers stress that the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) embraces all of Iraq's ethnic and religious groups. KRG President Masoud Barzani said that "the terrorists will not be able to damage the relations between the Kurdistan Region of Iraq and its Arab brothers" during an August meeting with French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius. In another statement, his office said that "Kurdistan Region has been an outstanding model of stability, democracy and peaceful coexistence in Iraq during the last decade," adding that it was "a safe haven" for all Iraqi's ethnic and religious groups, including Arabs, Turkmen, and Christians.

Meanwhile, Makhmour's mayor, Ibrahim Sheikh-Allah, said in an official statement that both Kurdish and Arab residents had returned following the fighting. However, locals recently told VICE News that Arabs were, in fact, being blocked from doing so. One 36-year-old Arab who once ran a shop in the town and gave his name as Abu Omar said he left his home the day that IS attacked and fled to the KRG capital of Erbil to stay with a Kurdish friend. When Kurdish forces recaptured the town and families began to trickle back he was was stopped from joining them by local security forces, known as Asayish, supposedly for his own safety. "I was informed by the Asayish forces that Arabs are not allowed to go back to Makhmour. They told me that the situation is not good enough for the Arabs to go back to Makhmour, since there are people who are hostile to Arabs at the moment."

Resentment is certainly still high. Karwan, a Kurdish resident who declined to give his surname confirmed that there were currently no Arab families in the town, and said that none should be allowed to return. "They were the reason for the fall of Makhmour… they caused too much pain for the people... during these past weeks. He was sceptical even of Arabs who had fled to the KRG. "I don't know about them, but for now there are only Kurds here in Makhmour and we are really living in peace and security…. I think even the innocent ones [Arabs] should not come back for a while since people of Makhmour are really angry."

A member of the Asayish, who declined to give his name, told VICE News that he had orders not to let Arabs back into the town. He speculated that this was partly because Kurds were still resentful, and partly because if IS launched another assault, then the presence of Arabs would be seen by the peshmerga as a risk. "Everyone knows that some Arab families helped IS to take Makhmour and gave them information before they attacked it," he said.

Peshmerga commanders appear to share this concern. Ali Faté, a peshmerga veteran who heads forces on the front just outside the town told VICE News shortly after the town had been retaken that the security situation meant the presence of Arabs was a danger. "You can't say that all Arabs are cooperating with IS, but it's a state of war..." he said, trailing off.

This suspicion is widespread. When VICE News was stopped at a checkpoint on the way into Kurdish territory from the disputed northern Iraqi town of Kirkuk, a peshmergera fighter looked inside the vehicle, asked "Any Arabs?" and when told there wasn't, waved it on with no further questions.

Arabs report being held up far longer at checkpoints and treated with hostility by those manning them. Worries of IS spies has meant that entire families were turned away at border crossings while attempting to seek refuge in Iraqi Kurdistan. A source close to senior peshmerga commanders at the frontline between Erbil and IS-held Mosul who spoke on the condition of anonymity told VICE News that a number of internally displaced Arab Iraqis, including young children, had been refused entry to the KRG on the suspicion that they were IS informants. "They often use children to do their spying for them, we have caught several," he said.

Meanwhile, anti-Arab rhetoric is mounting amongst civilians. As well as allegations of IS sympathies, the vast influx of refugees fleeing the fighting has pushed up housing and commodity prices. KRG minister for social affairs Muhammed Kader Hawdeyani said in July that crime too had risen as a result of the new arrivals, according to local BasNews.

In response, a now removed Facebook page calling for Arabs to be expelled from Iraqi Kurdistan quickly racked up thousands of likes, while a number of protests with the same demands were held, including one in Erbil which reportedly involved makeshift checkpoints looking for Arabs. Cars with Mosul license plates have been vandalised whilst some business have apparently refused Arab customers or charged them more.

The reason for this current enmity may be new, but as the peshmerga fighter alluded to, there is longstanding Kurdish resentment against Arabs. This is partly due to their brutal treatment under Hussein's rule, which saw thousands killed and the enactment of an "Arabization policy" that forcibly resettled thousands of Arabs in Kurdish regions and evicted Kurds from their homes.

Security was also stepped up after a September 2013 attack on security forces in Erbil, and local media reported that Arabs — particularly single men — were turned away at borders into Iraqi Kurdistan.

Today, there are more positive signs too. Anti-Arab demonstrations have been blocked by authorities, whilst in a Kurdish-run IDP camp on the outskirts of Erbil those who had fled IS — Arabs and members of Iraq's minority groups alike — praised the treatment they had received from local Kurds.

Nevertheless, Kurdistan has long prided itself on being more tolerant, prosperous and safer than the rest of Iraq. It will likely to continue to be so, but if recent trends continue, this history of tolerance, at least, may be at risk.
I really hope it stops here and a few threats is the most serious thing that will happen. If not, well, I really wouldn't want to be EU lawmaker explaining why arms we sent ended up helping yet another round of ethnic cleansing.
Channel72
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Channel72 »

And yet, the Kurds' anger is understandable. They were seriously betrayed. It's difficult to contemplate any satisfactory solution other than separating the Kurds and Arabs - there is so much bad blood.
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