Egyptians protesting across the country

[Sea Skimmer]

A lot of people live right on the banks of the canal, one burst of impossible to prevent gunfire into a ship would shut it down. Maybe not for long, but the canal already has long waiting periods at times. I don’t think anyone’s going to screw with it though; they wouldn’t gain anything by doing it and the Army would be obligated to defend it.

[Simon_Jester]

A lot of people live right on the banks of the canal, one burst of impossible to prevent gunfire into a ship would shut it down. Maybe not for long, but the canal already has long waiting periods at times. I don’t think anyone’s going to screw with it though; they wouldn’t gain anything by doing it and the Army would be obligated to defend it.

Excuse me, I was unclear. I was talking about the risk of a strike shutting down the canal, not of active sabotage (including people shooting at passing ships).

While you can block off a big sea level ditch with gunfire, you can't block it off by refusing to work on it. It's a hole in the ground; there's nothing there to shut down by going on strike.

Whereas, say, the Panama Canal could be shut down by a strike, because there are locks and lock operators.

[Sea Skimmer]

Well you most certainly can shutdown the canal with a labor strike. Remember the canal is only wide enough for large ship traffic to go one way at a time. Ships make the passage in convoys all going in the same direction; and these convoys pass each other at Suez city, the passing loop at Ballah, and on the Great Bitter Lake. Every ship going through has a team of pilots on board and usually boat attendants assigned to it. The boat attendants are to ensure that the ship can be quickly moored on the bank if it has problems to avoid blocking the canal. Various tugs and dredges are also operated by the canal. This is all controlled by a central post manned by more people. If those people all go on strike you could still have limited passage of say, US navy warships, but normal commercial traffic would be at a near standstill.

You could operate a railroad just running trains with drivers if your controllers and maintenance people went on strike too, I mean the rails exist and you could throw switches by hand (sometimes) but the whole thing would just be too unsafe to do. Have one big ship wreck in the canal hard enough from lack of a pilot and the place could be blocked for real for months. So given a strike, passage would shut down. I'd imagine the Egyptian navy does have plans to use its own people as replacements, but that would take time to setup.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Wonderful... now Glenn Beck is ranting about how all of Northern Africa is going to unite and the 'radical Muslims' prevalent in Spain, the UK, Germany, France, and Italy are going to revolt and create a Caliphate that covers all of Northern Africa, Eastern Europe, and the Mid East. Simultaneously China will use it as an excuse to annex all the -Stans North or West of Iran (I'm sure the Indians and the Russians won't have anything to say about that) Also they're Communists.

[Eframepilot]

Wonderful... now Glenn Beck is ranting about how all of Northern Africa is going to unite and the 'radical Muslims' prevalent in Spain, the UK, Germany, France, and Italy are going to revolt and create a Caliphate that covers all of Northern Africa, Eastern Europe, and the Mid East. Simultaneously China will use it as an excuse to annex all the -Stans North or West of Iran (I'm sure the Indians and the Russians won't have anything to say about that) Also they're Communists.

And both Presidents Bush, father and son, didn't bomb Babylon since the Bible (presumably Revelations) says it will become the center of a new Caliphate. They were in on it too!

[Simon_Jester]

Well you most certainly can shutdown the canal with a labor strike. Remember the canal is only wide enough for large ship traffic to go one way at a time. Ships make the passage in convoys all going in the same direction; and these convoys pass each other at Suez city, the passing loop at Ballah, and on the Great Bitter Lake. Every ship going through has a team of pilots on board and usually boat attendants assigned to it. The boat attendants are to ensure that the ship can be quickly moored on the bank if it has problems to avoid blocking the canal. Various tugs and dredges are also operated by the canal. This is all controlled by a central post manned by more people. If those people all go on strike you could still have limited passage of say, US navy warships, but normal commercial traffic would be at a near standstill.

[slaps forehead]

You are right and I was wrong.

[Raj Ahten]

The Guardian is reporting that the Egyptian Army is Torturing Protesters. The regime still thinks that outside elements are behind the protests. Everyone being tortured is asked if they are working for Hamas or the like. Mubarak and his cronies are acting like nobles in France; they can't believe the people are that pissed off and outsiders or provocateurs must be to blame. The army becoming involved in this way, at least in a limited manner, isn't that surprising. Some units are probably very loyal to the regime (anti terror squads, etc.) The state seems to be trying to crack down like every time before but there are so many people on the street it may simply be impossible to arrest all of them.

The Egyptian military has secretly detained hundreds and possibly thousands of suspected government opponents since mass protests against President Hosni Mubarak began, and at least some of these detainees have been tortured, according to testimony gathered by the Guardian.

The military has claimed to be neutral, merely keeping anti-Mubarak protesters and loyalists apart. But human rights campaigners say this is clearly no longer the case, accusing the army of involvement in both disappearances and torture – abuses Egyptians have for years associated with the notorious state security intelligence (SSI) but not the army.

The Guardian has spoken to detainees who say they have suffered extensive beatings and other abuses at the hands of the military in what appears to be an organised campaign of intimidation. Human rights groups have documented the use of electric shocks on some of those held by the army.

Egyptian human rights groups say families are desperately searching for missing relatives who have disappeared into army custody. Some of the detainees have been held inside the renowned Museum of Egyptian Antiquities on the edge of Tahrir Square. Those released have given graphic accounts of physical abuse by soldiers who accused them of acting for foreign powers, including Hamas and Israel.

Among those detained have been human rights activists, lawyers and journalists, but most have been released. However, Hossam Bahgat, director of the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights in Cairo, said hundreds, and possibly thousands, of ordinary people had "disappeared" into military custody across the country for no more than carrying a political flyer, attending the demonstrations or even the way they look. Many were still missing.

"Their range is very wide, from people who were at the protests or detained for breaking curfew to those who talked back at an army officer or were handed over to the army for looking suspicious or for looking like foreigners even if they were not," he said. "It's unusual and to the best of our knowledge it's also unprecedented for the army to be doing this."

One of those detained by the army was a 23-year-old man who would only give his first name, Ashraf, for fear of again being arrested. He was detained last Friday on the edge of Tahrir Square carrying a box of medical supplies intended for one of the makeshift clinics treating protesters attacked by pro-Mubarak forces.

"I was on a sidestreet and a soldier stopped me and asked me where I was going. I told him and he accused me of working for foreign enemies and other soldiers rushed over and they all started hitting me with their guns," he said.

Ashraf was hauled off to a makeshift army post where his hands were bound behind his back and he was beaten some more before being moved to an area under military control at the back of the museum.

"They put me in a room. An officer came and asked me who was paying me to be against the government. When I said I wanted a better government he hit me across the head and I fell to the floor. Then soldiers started kicking me. One of them kept kicking me between my legs," he said.

"They got a bayonet and threatened to rape me with it. Then they waved it between my legs. They said I could die there or I could disappear into prison and no one would ever know. The torture was painful but the idea of disappearing in a military prison was really frightening."

Ashraf said the beatings continued on and off for several hours until he was put in a room with about a dozen other men, all of whom had been severely tortured. He was let go after about 18 hours with a warning not to return to Tahrir Square.

Others have not been so lucky. Heba Morayef, a Human Rights Watch researcher in Cairo, said: "A lot of families are calling us and saying: 'I can't find my son, he's disappeared.' I think what's happening is that they're being arrested by the military."

Among those missing is Kareem Amer, a prominent government critic and blogger only recently released after serving a four-year prison sentence for criticising the regime. He was picked up on Monday evening at a military checkpoint late at night as he was leaving Tahrir Square.

Bahgat said the pattern of accounts from those released showed the military had been conducting a campaign to break the protests. "Some people, especially the activists, say they were interrogated about any possible links to political organisations or any outside forces. For the ordinary protesters, they get slapped around and asked: 'Why are you in Tahrir?' It seems to serve as an interrogation operation and an intimidation and deterrence."

The military has claimed to be neutral in the political standoff and both Mubarak and his prime minister, Ahmed Shafiq, have said there will be no "security pursuit" of anti-government activists. But Morayef says this is clearly not the case.

"I think it's become pretty obvious by now that the military is not a neutral party. The military doesn't want and doesn't believe in the protests and this is even at the lower level, based on the interrogations," she said.

Human Rights Watch says it has documented 119 arrests of civilians by the military but believes there are many more. Bahgat said it was impossible to know how many people had been detained because the army is not acknowledging the arrests. But he believes that the pattern of disappearances seen in Cairo is replicated across the country.

"Detentions either go completely unreported or they are unable to inform their family members or any lawyer of their detention so they are much more difficult to assist or look for," he said. "Those held by the military police are not receiving any due process either because they are unaccounted for and they are unable to inform anyone of their detention."

Human Rights Watch has also documented detentions including an unnamed democracy activist who described being stopped by a soldier who insisted on searching his bag, where he found a pro-democracy flyer.

"They started beating me up in the street their rubber batons and an electric Taser gun, shocking me," the activist said.


"Then they took me to Abdin police station. By the time I arrived, the soldiers and officers there had been informed that a 'spy' was coming, and so when I arrived they gave me a 'welcome beating' that lasted some 30 minutes."

While pro-government protesters have also been detained by the army during clashes in Tahrir Square, it is believed that they have been handed on to police and then released, rather than being held and tortured.

The detainee was held in a cell until an interrogator arrived, ordered him to undress and attached cables from an "electric shock machine".

"He shocked me all over my body, leaving no place untouched. It wasn't a real interrogation; he didn't ask that many questions. He tortured me twice like this on Friday, and one more time on Saturday," he said.

On their wesite the Guardian also has the story of a reporter who was held for 28 hours while his local fixer was tortured in front of him.

[Broomstick]

The Guardian is reporting that the Egyptian Army is Torturing Protesters. The regime still thinks that outside elements are behind the protests. Everyone being tortured is asked if they are working for Hamas or the like. Mubarak and his cronies are acting like nobles in France; they can't believe the people are that pissed off and outsiders or provocateurs must be to blame.

Yes, it's always such a shock when the peasants finally revolt....

[Zixinus]

This isn't that surprising. It was only a matter of time until the standing power started stomping on the protests and when it didn't stop the usual way, it is now trying to stomp in a different manner.

They clearly aren't really interested in getting any information. They just want to terrorize the protesters in a new way.

[ShadowDragon8685]

What happened? Did the guys who refused to fire on the protesters get sacked/arrested/killed or something? Or have they been working for Mukbarak all along in their early plays at "we're neutral in this fight, we just want to bring order to this protest."

Either way it looks like this revolution's not going to go down peacefully after all.

[Alyeska]

What happened? Did the guys who refused to fire on the protesters get sacked/arrested/killed or something? Or have they been working for Mukbarak all along in their early plays at "we're neutral in this fight, we just want to bring order to this protest."

Either way it looks like this revolution's not going to go down peacefully after all.

More likely some units are more loyal to the President than others.

[Zaune]

Another possibility is the secret police running a false-flag operation. The Egyptian troops I've seen on BBC News were all wearing generic DPM jackets and trousers of the sort one can buy almost anywhere, and it's only slightly harder to get hold of AK-series rifles. Maybe they'd have trouble getting the exact unit insignia or whatever, but they only have to fool a civilian who's busy looking down the barrel of an assault rifle and make the genuine squaddies hesitate to intervene violently.

[TimothyC]

Yes, it's always such a shock when the peasants finally revolt....

Except this didn't follow the usual patern of a 'Peasant revolt'. It's was much better organized and planned than most, and if you've noted, it took the Muslim Brotherhood some time to try and get out infront of it. If you've noted the signs and banners did not look like they were made quickly by people at home, but professionally done.

Someone was planning something, and used Tunisia as a moment of opportunity. Who, I don't know.

[bobalot]

Yes, it's always such a shock when the peasants finally revolt....

Except this didn't follow the usual patern of a 'Peasant revolt'. It's was much better organized and planned than most, and if you've noted, it took the Muslim Brotherhood some time to try and get out infront of it. If you've noted the signs and banners did not look like they were made quickly by people at home, but professionally done.

Someone was planning something, and used Tunisia as a moment of opportunity. Who, I don't know.

That's not really much evidence of anything.

[Pelranius]

Maybe just the various opposition groups made the banners and that sort of thing in the first week? It shouldn't be that hard to do if they had access to printing equipment, though they obviously succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

[Big Orange]

Reports of Egyptian soldiers being responsible for brutalising many of the protestors - despite many Army conscripts and officers acting in a relatively amiable way towards protestors being the popular media persception - could be down to the individual acts of the more hardcore units from the Republican Guard or the Military Police Corps., the kind of outfits that have closer ties with the Mubarak regime and most probably have a similar collective mindset to the MoI goons. And I'm glad that the anti-Mubarak protestors have changed their strategy by initiating industrial strikes across the nation (after the street protesting in Cairo and Alexandria have run out of steam in recent days and gotten more bottled up) stretching Mubarak's strained resources more thinly.

And I heard that at the fairly grand old age of 82 Mubarak is not too good and there's rumours of him having the Big C.

And here's an interesting article on the youth unemployment timebomb that I personally think has been the real driving force behind the riots that Glenn Beck and Wicked from SB.com declares to be the rise of the Neo-Caliphate:

Tunis yesterday, Cairo today, London tomorrow?
Neil Clark: These revolts aren’t peculiar to Muslims – they’re about young people having no hope
By Neil Clark

Tens of thousands of people, fed up with economic hardship, unemployment, and the corruption of their country's ruling elite, gather in their capital city's main square and call for the resignation of their pro-western government and for new elections to be held.

No, I'm not referring to events this week in Cairo, but Belgrade.

While Egypt's disturbances have made front page news the world over, Serbia's huge anti-government protests have gained far less media attention. And the Serbs aren't the only Europeans who are taking to the streets to express their disapproval of their leaders.

In neighbouring Albania, 20,000 demonstrators took part in anti-government protests in Tirana last month (above), during which four civilians were shot dead, and 17 policemen injured. Large anti-government demonstrations were again held in Tirana and other Albanian cities on Friday.

On January 28, in the Turkish-half of Nicosia in northern Cyprus, around 40,000 people gathered to protest against their government: a general strike was also held.

Many commentators have portrayed the revolts against the ruling regimes in Tunisia and Egypt as something peculiar to the Arab world. It's all to do with Islamists trying to take control, or about the ‘Arab world's 1989', we're told.

In fact, they're part of a global phenomenon. What is fuelling the anti-government protests in the Middle East, in Serbia, Albania and Turkish Cyprus are economic factors. People are taking to the streets, not because they are Islamists, far-leftists, or far-rightists, but principally because they want a life. They want jobs and a decent standard of living.

It is little surprise that Wael Ghonim, the young Google executive who started the Facebook campaign that did so much to inspire the protesters in Cairo, should have said in his TV interview yesterday: "This revolution belonged to the youth of the internet, then it belonged to all young Egyptians, then it belonged to all of Egypt."

It's revealing to look at the unemployment figures - and in particular the youth unemployment figures - in the countries where the disturbances are occurring.

• Youth unemployment in Tunisia doubled in the period 1996/7 to 2006/7 and is estimated to be around 30 per cent, with the country's official overall rate of unemployment is 14 per cent.

• In Egypt, people under 30 make up for 90 per cent of the 9.4 per cent officially unemployed - though most analysts believe the real rate to be much higher.

• In Serbia, overall unemployment is almost 20 per cent, with youth unemployment a staggering 50 per cent.

• In Albania, unemployment is around 14 per cent, with around 50 per cent of young people unemployed.

• In Turkish Cyprus, 12 per cent are unemployed with 31.4 per cent of young people without a job.

The street protests in these countries illustrate a growing discontent, particularly among the young, with the neo-liberal model of globalisation and rising anger against corrupt and out-of-touch political elites who seem not to care about their predicament.

And the bad news for those elites is that the discontent is only going to spread.

Last August, the International Labour Organisation revealed that 81 million young people worldwide were without jobs at the end of 2009 - the highest level of youth unemployment ever. The ILO expects the increase to have continued throughout 2010, and with governments across Europe committed to deficit-slashing austerity programmes, unemployment is only going to get worse in 2011.

It's not just about people not having jobs. It's also to do with rocketing prices of basic commodities. World food prices rose to a record high in January, up 3.7 per cent from December, with the World Bank President Robert Zoellick warning: "We are going to be facing a broader trend of increasing commodity prices, including food commodity prices."

As the economic pressure on ordinary people intensifies, could what happened in Tunisia - the overthrowing of an unpopular government by angry citizens who have simply had enough - happen in Europe?

It's not just the governments in Belgrade and Tirana who ought to be concerned. In Greece, with more IMF/EU induced austerity on the way, the situation could flare up again at any time. Romania is another country to keep your eyes on: last year the country saw its largest anti-government demonstrations since the fall of Ceausescu in 1989, with 50,000 taking to the streets in opposition to the government's austerity measures.

And there's nothing to say that large-scale anti-government protests won't spread to Britain, too, with economists warning of a double-dip recession and youth unemployment reaching a record high in January.

It seems that across Europe ruling elites have a choice: either change their economic policies and put full employment back on the agenda, or face an increasingly angry populace.

Up to now, the years 1848 and 1917 are the ones most associated with revolution. Judging by the way it's going so far, 2011 could end up surpassing them all.

Link

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, it's always such a shock when the peasants finally revolt....

Except this didn't follow the usual patern of a 'Peasant revolt'. It's was much better organized and planned than most, and if you've noted, it took the Muslim Brotherhood some time to try and get out infront of it. If you've noted the signs and banners did not look like they were made quickly by people at home, but professionally done.

Someone was planning something, and used Tunisia as a moment of opportunity. Who, I don't know.

Excuse me, Timothy, but I don't quite follow your reasoning.

It's perfectly normal for a peasant revolt to include within its ranks some organized groups that were waiting for a time when it would be safer and more practical for them to try and depose the government. I mean, it's not as if Mubarak was wonderfully popular until two weeks ago and then suddenly (bang!) everyone is rallying against him in the streets.

A spontaneous popular revolt won't necessarily catch everyone totally unprepared; is it really a surprise that there were pro-democracy groups in Egypt with a stockpile of "Mubarak Go Away" signs hidden somewhere?

If anything, the fact that the Muslim Brotherhood took some time to try and get in on the game, as you say, argues against it being a preplanned event- or at the very least, against it being a preplanned event that they organized.

[FSTargetDrone]

BREAKING: Mubarak to step down, possibly very soon:

NBC, msnbc.com and news services

updated 11 minutes ago 2011-02-10T15:52:40

CAIRO — Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak is to step down after 17 days of pro-democracy protests, two sources told NBC News on Thursday.

Following an all-day meeting of the country's supreme military council, the army said all the protesters' demands would be met and a further statement was expected to be made later Thursday, clarifying the situation.

Mubarak was expected to formally announce his departure in an address to the nation tonight.

NBC News said a high-ranking source inside the president's office said that Mubarak would step down and the newly appointed vice president, Omar Suleiman, would take over. This was then confirmed by a second source.

Mubarak was not present at the supreme council meeting, despite being the commander in chief of Egypt's armed forces.

State TV announced that the supreme council had expressed its "support of the legitimate demands of the people."

Gen. Hassan al-Roueini, military commander for the Cairo area, told thousands of protesters in central Tahrir Square, "All your demands will be met today."

The Secretary-General of the ruling NDP party, Dr Hossam Badrawi, told the U.K's Channel 4 News that he was expecting Mubarak to stand aside in his televised address.

"I'm expecting him to pass his decision for the constitution amendments and for him to go to the constitution and transmit his authorities as president to his vice president," Badrawi told Channel 4 News.

Badrawi said Mubarak had made the decision reluctantly.

"He sees himself as someone who served his country," Badrawi said. "He made mistakes but he sees himself as someone that does not deserve getting out of power, of his service, that way. At the same time he realizes that it's the time to change. That's my impression in the last two days."

The news came as protesters defied government threats of a military crackdown with doctors in white lab coats and lawyers in black robes streaming into the square as labor unrest spread across the country.

The strikes had given powerful momentum to Egypt's wave of anti-government protests — now in their 17th day — and with its efforts to manage the crisis failing, the government threatened the army could impose martial law.

And, for the second day, crowds angry over lack of housing rioted in the Suez Canal city of Port Said.

They set fire to the local headquarters of state security, the main post office and the governor's offices, which had already been partially burned the day before. It appeared police and soldiers were not intervening.

News that Mubarak was to stand down came shortly after the regime seemed to be threatening a military crackdown.

Speaking to the Arab news network Al-Arabiya on Thursday, Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said that if "adventurers" take over the process of reform the military "will be compelled to defend the constitution and national security ... and we'll find ourselves in a very grave situation."

The night earlier, he was more explicit, saying in an interview with "PBS NewsHour" that there would be chaos if Mubarak stepped down immediately.

"Do we want the armed forces to assume the responsibility of stabilizing the nation through imposing martial law, and army in the streets?" he said.

It was the second coup warning to the protesters this week, with Prime Minister Omar Suleiman making similar threats Tuesday.

A protest group, responding to Suleiman's remarks, said Wednesday that there was "a clear threat to the protesters in Tahrir Square."

"We do not accept his threat, on the contrary, the demonstrators will continue and will not stop until we overthrow this tyrant regime," the April 6 Youth movement said in a statement emailed to its Facebook followers.

The Associated Press, Reuters and msnbc.com staff contributed to this report.

[Siege]

According to Associated Press feed the army council's statement was labeled "communique number one", which the agency says is "a phrasing that suggests a military coup". AP also reports that VP Omar Suleiman was not at the army council meeting either. It looks like if Mubarak is gonna go, it's the military's decision after all.

EDIT:

Egypt's military announced on national television that it has stepped in to "safeguard the country" on Thursday and assured protesters that President Hosni Mubarak will meet their demands in the strongest indication yet that Egypt's longtime leader has lost power. In Washington, the CIA chief said there was a "strong likelihood" Mubarak will step down Thursday.

EDIT #2:

According to Al-Arabiya television Mubarak has travelled to Sharm el-Sheikh with his army chief of staff.

[erik_t]

According to Associated Press feed the army council's statement was labeled "communique number one", which the agency says is "a phrasing that suggests a military coup". AP also reports that VP Omar Suleiman was not at the army council meeting either. It looks like if Mubarak is gonna go, it's the military's decision after all.

I don't know if that's quite fair. More like the military has decided it's time to expedite the final phase of things. I don't think the outcome has been in doubt for some while, only how long it would take.

[Siege]

True. The military wouldn't be cutting the red tape now if the protestors hadn't pressed the Egyptian government for 17 days.

There's a lot of contradictory rumours and speculation flying around at the moment: depending on what source you believe Mubarak is either in Sharm el-Sheikh, in his palace in Cairo, or left Egypt yesterday. He's either fled outright, has been stopped from handing power to his VP Suleiman by the chairman of the NDP party, is preparing to make a speech, has already been deposed by the military, or - if you believe Prime Minister Shafiq - "Everything is normal. Everything is still in the hands of the president" (which has a major Baghdad Bob vibe to it).

Obviously nothing of this has been confirmed at this time, but events seems to be hitting a climax right about now. I put down one fake internet dollar on a temporary military government with some input from the opposition, followed by elections in the near future.

[erik_t]

Seems likely they'd just hold the scheduled elections in... September, I think it is.

[Eframepilot]

Seems likely they'd just hold the scheduled elections in... September, I think it is.

That's likely, but they will have to do a lot of reforms, including constitutional ones, before then for the elections to be fair and to have a proper selection of candidates.

[Narkis]

And Mubarak's not going anywhere, for now:

Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak has said he will stay in office and transfer all power only after September's presidential election.

His comments in a national TV address confounded earlier reports that he was preparing to stand down immediately.

Mr Mubarak said he would delegate some powers to Vice-President Omar Suleiman, but would ignore "diktats from abroad".

Thousands of anti-government protesters in central Cairo reacted angrily to his announcement.

Mr Mubarak, 82, apologised to the families of protesters killed in clashes with the security forces in recent weeks, and said those responsible for their deaths would be punished.

"I express a commitment to carry on and protect the constitution and the people and transfer power to whomever is elected next September in free and transparent elections," Mr Mubarak said.

Egypt's military had earlier said it was standing ready to "protect the nation".

Negotiations between the government and opposition groups have made little progress, with protesters disillusioned at plans for reform put forward by Mr Mubarak's government.

The US government had in recent days stepped up its call for the protesters' concerns to be addressed.

Link

[erik_t]

So, no meaningful news. Harumph.