European refugee crisis thread

[Broomstick]

What the fuck is this passion for drafting men?

Seriously, WTF are you fixated on this for? Has it occurred to you that these men may have obligations to their families? They may be the sole or major breadwinners, they ones with the job skills that would enable a high enough salary to support a family - you'd be condemning at least some of the women and children left behind to poverty and hardship.

You're acting like the ONLY obligation a man has is to fight and kill and completely ignoring any and all other possible responsibilities a man might have.

There ARE many women and children and elderly people in the marching horde, accompanied by men are fulfilling their duty to keep their family safe and together. Some of these men who appear to be alone are going to meet other family members. Your tendency to see these people as interchangeable units is nauseating.

Not to mention the rest of your blatant bigotry.

[cmdrjones]

What the fuck is this passion for drafting men?

Seriously, WTF are you fixated on this for? Has it occurred to you that these men may have obligations to their families? They may be the sole or major breadwinners, they ones with the job skills that would enable a high enough salary to support a family - you'd be condemning at least some of the women and children left behind to poverty and hardship.

You're acting like the ONLY obligation a man has is to fight and kill and completely ignoring any and all other possible responsibilities a man might have.

There ARE many women and children and elderly people in the marching horde, accompanied by men are fulfilling their duty to keep their family safe and together. Some of these men who appear to be alone are going to meet other family members. Your tendency to see these people as interchangeable units is nauseating.

Not to mention the rest of your blatant bigotry.

Their first obligation is to win the war. Besides, as refugees they aren't doing much breadwinning. If by chance the Arab league could make a good showing along with these men in defeating ISIS, perhaps the rest of the world would sit up, take notice and STOP deciding they can intervene in thier internal affairs all the time.... which of course is one of the major causes of the current state of affairs.
Also, the women and children by your own admission are ALREADY in a state of poverty and hardship. I can't see how a steady paycheck from the Arab league (those guys with a big chunk of the world's oil wealth btw) could make things WORSE.

When discussing warfare, they kinda do become interchangeable units, IF the military involved does its job properly.

AS for bigotry... why is assuming these men can be brave, fight, and win their own nation(s) back bigotry? Do you think they can amount to nothing but wards of various european states? I've seen Arabs (Iraqis specifically) fight bravely with hardly any equipment or training. I've shared the dangers with them. For you to reflexively accuse me of bigotry is laughable.

[Broomstick]

Their first obligation is to win the war.

According to who? You? Who made you a general?

Their first obligation is to their families.

Besides, as refugees they aren't doing much breadwinning.

That can be changed. Refugees in the US are able to work legally just as much as any citizen, indeed, they are encouraged to get work. If there are laws in various European nations forbidding that the laws should be changed.

If by chance the Arab league could make a good showing along with these men in defeating ISIS, perhaps the rest of the world would sit up, take notice and STOP deciding they can intervene in thier internal affairs all the time....

How is forcing men who have fled the Middle East to leave their families, don uniforms, take up weapons, and go back to fight NOT interfering with affairs?

Also, the women and children by your own admission are ALREADY in a state of poverty and hardship.

Actually, quite a few of the current crowd would have counted as middle class or higher before this crisis. If they're poor now it's a temporary state of affairs. By removing the men you may make that permanent.

I can't see how a steady paycheck from the Arab league (those guys with a big chunk of the world's oil wealth btw) could make things WORSE.

And... how is that going to happen? You gonna enforce that? What was that babbling about not interfering...?

When discussing warfare, they kinda do become interchangeable units, IF the military involved does its job properly.

Please state your credentials as a military authority before you make another statement like that.

AS for bigotry... why is assuming these men can be brave, fight, and win their own nation(s) back bigotry? Do you think they can amount to nothing but wards of various european states? I've seen Arabs (Iraqis specifically) fight bravely with hardly any equipment or training. I've shared the dangers with them. For you to reflexively accuse me of bigotry is laughable.

I'm accusing you of bigotry based on your words - you wouldn't know a reflex if it kicked you in the ass.

I don't measure a man's worth based solely on whether or not he's capable of killing another human being. It takes a fuckton of bravery to make the kind of journey these people have, on foot, or in rickety boats. Why do you dismiss that?

Why do you assume they want to go back? None of my ancestors ever went back to the nations they had fled, they liked it much better in their new land where they enjoyed much more physical safety and the ability to make a living without having it all snatched away by someone else. The truth is YOU want them to go back, so you don't have to associate with "them".

Why do you assume they will all remain "wards" of the state? Why do you discount their ability to adapt and become fully functioning members of the societies of their new nations of residence? Do you think they are less than you? Isn't that bigotry?

[salm]

This is a good point. I would leave that decision up to the arab league or somesuch. Something along the lines of:

"hey y'all, now that you're safe in Europe, the Arab league will be taking you in and splitting you into groups to go to the following countries: (See lists above)

You can get preferential treatment and get higher on the list of 'where you'd like to go' and better accomodations when you get there if any MAM's in your family will agree to train to go and kill ISIS. Any takers?"

I am assuming of course that this is all in the context of "we've all united to kill ISIS" and sort out the territorial details later.

Again, this doesn't mean that people with essential skills that the destination countries need can't be offered better accomodations either.

That´s quite a large assumption. It´s just like I´m going to buy a Ferrari and a nice little yacht tomorrow. I´m assuming of course that this is all in the context of "I´m going to be billionaire by 10:30 pm tonight."

Furthermore it has nothing to do with the video you posted. The idiot in the video doesn´t want to let refugees into Europe and wait for the next couple of decades until some united front against ISIS has emerged.

Also, why would that be useful? I guess it´s safe to assume that it will take a decade or so (if ever) until some united front against ISIS emerges. This means that the refugees that come here now will have to be uprooted again. They will lose their jobs and new homes, our industry will lose a lot of good workers and who, if not the refugees kids is going to pay my pensions? Have you recently looked at Germanys population pyramide? There´t not much pyramide to see there. It´s a fir tree during the height of Waldsterben.

[salm]

One of the things that gets on my nerves is that even a lot of people who are in favor of taking refugees completely overlook the oportunities this wave of migration has.
Incorporating all these people into this society will be a challenge. However, if we solve this challenge, which shouldn´t be exorbitantly difficult this society will profit enormously.
There are plenty of jobs which are there to be taken, there are plenty of taxes to be collected and the pension system in dire need of young people able to fulfill the inter-generational contract.

This isn´t a drain. This is an investment.

[Darth Tanner]

However, if we solve this challenge, which shouldn´t be exorbitantly difficult this society will profit enormously.
There are plenty of jobs which are there to be taken

Even Germany has 5.3% unemployment and its 9.6% in the EU as an average. (Hungary is 8.1%, Greece is 25.5% and Italy is 13%) I'm sure the average unemployed young person will greatly appreciate a few million competing Syrians/Afghans/Eritreans willing to work for minimum wage or taking black market jobs and driving wage growth into the floor.

and the pension system in dire need of young people able to fulfill the inter-generational contract.

So delay the stress on the pension system for a generation or so and let them worry about paying pensions to millions of very poor Syrians/Afghans/Eritreans at that later date once the current politicans have retired/died? Thats forward thinking.

[salm]

Even Germany has 5.3% unemployment and its 9.6% in the EU as an average. (Hungary is 8.1%, Greece is 25.5% and Italy is 13%) I'm sure the average unemployed young person will greatly appreciate a few million competing Syrians/Afghans/Eritreans willing to work for minimum wage or taking black market jobs and driving wage growth into the floor.

The German industry has been complaining about a lack of qualified people for years. There appear to be mainly lazy and idiot Germans left or people who are not fit for the current job market for other reasons.
40.000 apprentices alone in all kinds of jobs are lacking. Old person care can´t find people. Engineers are hard to find. Mechatronics are hard to find.

A whole bunch of company bosses, among them Zetsche from Daimler, Müller from Porsche, Engel from Evonik and so on have been saying that they see opportunities to fill loads of empty positions if politics make it easier to employ people with refugee status or turn people with refugee status into people with migrant status.
The companies are willing to invest in integration measures such as German courses and similar things.

Unemployment is at the lowest rate since 1991.
The general population appears to be welcoming.
The conditions for this won´t get any better.

As for unemployed people from other EU countries: There´s nothign keeping you from comming here and getting a job. Really, there is plenty of low hanging fruit waiting to get picked. In fact I know plenty of people from EU countries who did just this. But there are not enough EU people willing to relocate so the refugees are a perfect opportunity for Germany.

So delay the stress on the pension system for a generation or so and let them worry about paying pensions to millions of very poor Syrians/Afghans/Eritreans at that later date once the current politicans have retired/died? Thats forward thinking.

Can you explain this? It doesn´t seem to make any sense to me. If integration works there won´t be poor Syrians/Afghans/Eriteans. There will be Syrians/Afghans/Eritreans with an average German income and plenty of Ex-Eyrians/Ex-Afghans/Ex-Eritreans who are now Germans with German kids.

[Darth Tanner]

The German industry has been complaining about a lack of qualified people for years.

All industry does that as they don't like having to pay for qualified staff when unskilled are available at minimum wage... there are still just under 2 million unemployed in Germany, now this might be amongst the lowest in Europe and the German economy might be doing very well but you are not just going to get the skilled Syrians coming to Germany, your also going to get unskilled people, especially seeing as the education system of most of these countries collapsed some time ago so future refugess are not likely to have received much education. If industry is so crying out for apprentices and such and willing to provide the training why does Germany have 2 million people sat unemployed?

There´s nothign keeping you from comming here and getting a job.

They are in very large numbers... Southern and Easter Europe are losing large chunks of their young educated population to the West.... expecting whole populations to move to Germany is not really a solution to the problem of their economies though.

Can you explain this? It doesn´t seem to make any sense to me.

You are basing your assumption that the refugees will become parity German citizens and work in high skilled jobs earning good salaries and paying normal levels of taxation. This may be the case for the high skilled refuges but many of them lack any skills, there will be millions with only manual labour and other unskilled work to fall back on. There may be tens of thousands of Syrains fleeing that are trained doctors or engineers but with the destruction of the Syrian state and the fact many refugees will be coming from less developed countries the majority are not going to have useful skills for the German economy without substantial retraining. The only solution to that would be to only take skilled refugees which would be appalling.
The additional problem of course if that refuges are not going to be members of society when their kept in refugee camps, which is inevitable when there are so many of them.
If you believe Germany is going to be able to take these millions of people, teach them German and train them into high skilled workers who contribute to society in parity with existing citizens thats fine, if unlikely, but without achieving those mammoth tasks you’re going to be left with large numbers of unskilled workers taking pensions and other state benefits that they largely didn't contribute to.

Additionally if the current pension system is creaking under a change in demographics then the only way adding more people to the system will correct this is if they maintain their large number of children and still die early… even adding just skilled workers will do nothing to address the demographic changes that are applying pressure to the pension system, it will simply delay the issue until the current crop of immigrants age and then you’re left with a larger problem.

[salm]

All industry does that as they don't like having to pay for qualified staff when unskilled are available at minimum wage...

What? They are explicitly looking for qualified staff. They want to pay for qualified staff. They can´t find qualified staff.

there are still just under 2 million unemployed in Germany, now this might be amongst the lowest in Europe and the German economy might be doing very well but you are not just going to get the skilled Syrians coming to Germany, your also going to get unskilled people, especially seeing as the education system of most of these countries collapsed some time ago so future refugess are not likely to have received much education. If industry is so crying out for apprentices and such and willing to provide the training why does Germany have 2 million people sat unemployed?

Because these 2 million seem to be unable or unwilling to take up these jobs.
Being a mechatronic for example requires a certain amount of intelligence, talent, interest and willingness. Perhaps there are not enough among these 2 million to provide these requirements.
There are probably other reasons as well, such as companies being an assholes and not wanting certain candidates above a certain age and things like that.

Some of the Syrians are skilled some others are not. However, a lot of them are young and very motivated. They can learn. That´s the reason why we need to implement an easy way to get refugees into the work force as fast as possible. It´s easier now than it was a couple of months ago but still not easy enough.
At the moment we get a lot of motivated people but this motivation must be seen as a resource. And being stuck in a refugee camp for months drains this resource. And we are sheer and utter morons to let such a valuable resource go down the shitter.

They are in very large numbers... Southern and Easter Europe are losing large chunks of their young educated population to the West.... expecting whole populations to move to Germany is not really a solution to the problem of their economies though.

So the refugees are good news for Southern and Eastern Europe. Germanys greed for skilled employees will now partially be satisfied by refugees.

You are basing your assumption that the refugees will become parity German citizens and work in high skilled jobs earning good salaries and paying normal levels of taxation. This may be the case for the high skilled refuges but many of them lack any skills, there will be millions with only manual labour and other unskilled work to fall back on. There may be tens of thousands of Syrains fleeing that are trained doctors or engineers but with the destruction of the Syrian state and the fact many refugees will be coming from less developed countries the majority are not going to have useful skills for the German economy without substantial retraining. The only solution to that would be to only take skilled refugees which would be appalling.

Lots are young and can learn. Others won´t be able to and it will take a generation or two to smooth out. I hope nobody is expecting this to be a matter of a single generation.
On the other hand with the Russians who came in the 90s the integration process went very smooth and fast.

The additional problem of course if that refuges are not going to be members of society when their kept in refugee camps, which is inevitable when there are so many of them.
If you believe Germany is going to be able to take these millions of people, teach them German and train them into high skilled workers who contribute to society in parity with existing citizens thats fine, if unlikely, but without achieving those mammoth tasks you’re going to be left with large numbers of unskilled workers taking pensions and other state benefits that they largely didn't contribute to.

That´s the case. If we don´t do it right we´ll lose. If we do it right we´ll win. Investments come with risks but you can minimize these risks with hard and smart work.
Them being in camps and not allowed to work for such a long time is not inevitable, though. It´s a matter of politics, at least to a certain degree.

Additionally if the current pension system is creaking under a change in demographics then the only way adding more people to the system will correct this is if they maintain their large number of children and still die early… even adding just skilled workers will do nothing to address the demographic changes that are applying pressure to the pension system, it will simply delay the issue until the current crop of immigrants age and then you’re left with a larger problem.

[/quote]
The refugees have made Europe 6.4 years younger allready. If we´re not stupid we can use this as a start to implement a more sustainable demographic policy and incentives. Or we can sit on our asses, do nothing and hope that the robots will be good enough when we´re old farts.

[Darth Tanner]

They want to pay for qualified staff. They can´t find qualified staff.

Yes, employers always want more skilled staff, it dilutes their value and cost. If they are willing to train up Syrians why are they not training up the millions of unemployed Europeans?

And we are sheer and utter morons to let such a valuable resource go down the shitter.

I would fully agree but doing so is going to bring with it the massive problem of flooding the labour markets in countries with already high unemployment... it’s not like Europe has a choice now though. If Germany is willing to support 2 million unemployed full time then there is no issue with adding more Syrians... if the working class see it like that though is rather doubtful.

So the refugees are good news for Southern and Eastern Europe.

Not really no considering Germany has pulled up its drawbridge and is leaving Southern Europe to deal with the flow now. Or that giving Jobs to Syrians that the Greeks or Polish could be filling destroys their employment when they have limited employment at home from their economies tanking.

Others won´t be able to and it will take a generation or two to smooth out. I hope nobody is expecting this to be a matter of a single generation.

Indeed, but selling a multigenerational project of integrating millions of people is going to be hard sell.

If we´re not stupid we can use this as a start to implement a more sustainable demographic policy and incentives

People are living longer, nothing is going to change that and adding more people now simply makes the issue worse in a generation when they retire and need pensions and expensive medical care. Unless you propose an eternal input of immigrants and large families to keep eternal growth at the bottom of the pyramid this isn’t a solution.

[salm]

They want to pay for qualified staff. They can´t find qualified staff.

Yes, employers always want more skilled staff, it dilutes their value and cost. If they are willing to train up Syrians why are they not training up the millions of unemployed Europeans?

The majority of people comming to Germany are from EU countries. So they are willing to train and employ Europeans. In fact they have to employ them before they employ refugees due to politics.

I would fully agree but doing so is going to bring with it the massive problem of flooding the labour markets in countries with already high unemployment... it’s not like Europe has a choice now though. If Germany is willing to support 2 million unemployed full time then there is no issue with adding more Syrians... if the working class see it like that though is rather doubtful.

The people are here anyway. If you waste their motivation it is going to be worse than if you don´t waste their motivation.
2 million unemployed is a very low number. Of course Germany is willing to support 2 million unemployed. If you´ve got some type of welfare system implemented you have to be willing to support a certain amount of people or else having a welfare system is silly.

Not really no considering Germany has pulled up its drawbridge and is leaving Southern Europe to deal with the flow now. Or that giving Jobs to Syrians that the Greeks or Polish could be filling destroys their employment when they have limited employment at home from their economies tanking.

So on the one hand you don´t want Germany to drain talent from Southern and Eastern Europe but on the other hand you want talent from Southern and Eastern Europe to be able to move to Germany for work. That seems rather contradictory.

Indeed, but selling a multigenerational project of integrating millions of people is going to be hard sell.

So we shouldn´t attempt difficult things even if they can mean huge payoffs? I know the refugee opponents are fearful pussies at heart but I sometimes wonder where this mindset comes from.
Also, I don´t think it is going to be as difficult as you think and for now it is allready sold. It will depend on political decisions if it stays sold.

People are living longer, nothing is going to change that and adding more people now simply makes the issue worse in a generation when they retire and need pensions and expensive medical care. Unless you propose an eternal input of immigrants and large families to keep eternal growth at the bottom of the pyramid this isn’t a solution.

That makes no sense. Are you saying that because we don´t have a solution for the next generation we shouldn´t implement a solution for this generation? That´s an absurd standpoint to take. Implementing a solution for this generation eases the preasure on this generation and buys time to implement a solution - hopefully a halfways permantent one - for comming generations. What this solution is going to look like we obviously don´t know. But it´s a solvable problem given enough time. Even a steady input of immigrants won´t be impossible since the worlds population is steadily increasing.

[Darth Tanner]

The majority of people comming to Germany are from EU countries.

Yes except if Germany had not pulled up its drawbridge that would have reversed as more and more refugees come to Germany. Surely you must accept Germany does not have an infinite capacity to employ more and more people and support them with its economy and infrastructure?

2 million unemployed is a very low number. Of course Germany is willing to support 2 million unemployed.

I'm not sure accepting that 2 million of your citizens are underserving of employment is that healthy to your nation even if you consider that a small number. Germany might be riding high in its economy now but most of Europe is not and cannot just accept a large chunk of the population being surplus at the taxpayers expense, adding an additional 500,000 refugees per year to that is going to have a large impact.

If you´ve got some type of welfare system implemented you have to be willing to support a certain amount of people or else having a welfare system is silly.

The welfare state is there to stop people falling to the absolute bottom of poverty, it was not intended to keep an underclass indefinitely. When you have a large chunk of your population completely divorced from your society and economy that’s hardly healthy let alone when you start giving training and jobs to refugees before your own unemployed.

So on the one hand you don´t want Germany to drain talent from Southern and Eastern Europe but on the other hand you want talent from Southern and Eastern Europe to be able to move to Germany for work. That seems rather contradictory.

I'm all in favour of free movement of labour in the EU but it’s hardly healthy for the EU states where the young and educated are fleeing to work in the west and it’s not exactly healthy for existing workers either who see their wages depressed by increased supply of labour... Germany might be ok with this as they have a booming manufacturing economy but most of the EU does not.

So we shouldn´t attempt difficult things even if they can mean huge payoffs? I know the refugee opponents are fearful pussies at heart but I sometimes wonder where this mindset comes from.

Are you somehow surprised a population has reservations about large expensive long term projects involving integrating millions of refugees into your country with uncertain consequences? Calling people pussies might help you somehow but it hardly addresses anyone concerns.

Also, I don´t think it is going to be as difficult as you think and for now it is allready sold

I hope your right... but it’s hardly sold, the issue was forced on Europe, it wasn't really a conscious choice and now most of Europe are scrabbling trying to reduce the numbers, even Germany who were so open and welcoming before getting overwhelmed.

That makes no sense. Are you saying that because we don´t have a solution for the next generation we shouldn´t implement a solution for this generation?

Not when your solution to the current problem is to increase the problem later on! If you’re in debt borrowing more is not a solution, it simply defers the problem till later same as any pyramid scheme.

I think we are just going to have to disagree with this if you’re happy with infinite growth as a solution to the demographic problem.

[salm]

Yes except if Germany had not pulled up its drawbridge that would have reversed as more and more refugees come to Germany. Surely you must accept Germany does not have an infinite capacity to employ more and more people and support them with its economy and infrastructure?

Actually the draw bridges are far from up. Refugees are arriving every minute.
It´s also good we don´t need infinete capacity because obviously there are not infinite refugees. And of those who arrive a large percentage will be denied asylum. Refugees from the Balkan have very little chance for example and they make up a good chunk of refugees.

I'm not sure accepting that 2 million of your citizens are underserving of employment is that healthy to your nation even if you consider that a small number. Germany might be riding high in its economy now but most of Europe is not and cannot just accept a large chunk of the population being surplus at the taxpayers expense, adding an additional 500,000 refugees per year to that is going to have a large impact.

Undeserving? I don´t know about undeserving but any nation is going to have a certain percentage of unemployed. Is anbody undeserving? I guess not. The question is if they´re qualified and willing.

If the refugees are divided up among the whole EU and perhaps some other European nations it would be less of an impact. We´re three quarter of a billion people after all.

The welfare state is there to stop people falling to the absolute bottom of poverty, it was not intended to keep an underclass indefinitely. When you have a large chunk of your population completely divorced from your society and economy that’s hardly healthy let alone when you start giving training and jobs to refugees before your own unemployed.

It doesn´t matter what the welfare state was implemented for. Jobs for uneducated people are more and more automatet out of existance. Even jobs for educated people are automated out of existance. We´ll need to take care of that problem no matter if there are refugees here or not.

I'm all in favour of free movement of labour in the EU but it’s hardly healthy for the EU states where the young and educated are fleeing to work in the west and it’s not exactly healthy for existing workers either who see their wages depressed by increased supply of labour... Germany might be ok with this as they have a booming manufacturing economy but most of the EU does not.

I don´t think anybody expects other countries to take as many refugees as Germany. However, if we manage this right we can improve the economy in long term and profit from it. This should be valuable for other countries as well.

Are you somehow surprised a population has reservations about large expensive long term projects involving integrating millions of refugees into your country with uncertain consequences? Calling people pussies might help you somehow but it hardly addresses anyone concerns.

Surprised? No. Bothered by it, yes.
The "concerns" such as displayed by the video cmdrjones posted or can be seen for the upteenth time when some camera teams interviews an idiot anti refugee protestors ususally boil down to thinly veiled or publicly displayed racism. They often don´t even care to not hold contradicting opinions in the same sentances (They´re lazy and leach off the welfare system- they steal our jobs).
It is completely clear that these people don´t like brown people but are afraid to say so directly and move to ignorant, contradicting or plain stupid exuses instead.

I hope your right... but it’s hardly sold, the issue was forced on Europe, it wasn't really a conscious choice and now most of Europe are scrabbling trying to reduce the numbers, even Germany who were so open and welcoming before getting overwhelmed.

Sorry, I meant it´s sold in Germany. Sadly it isn´t sold in the EU.

Not when your solution to the current problem is to increase the problem later on! If you’re in debt borrowing more is not a solution, it simply defers the problem till later same as any pyramid scheme.

I think we are just going to have to disagree with this if you’re happy with infinite growth as a solution to the demographic problem.

How does this increase the problem?

Indefinite growth? Germanys and to a lesser degree Europes population is shrinking. We have to be glad if manage to stabilize the population.

[Darth Tanner]

Actually the draw bridges are far from up. Refugees are arriving every minute.

The borders are closed, trains are cancelled, barb wire is being laid and soldiers are manning the borders. Their as up as they can get before the concrete walls come out.

It´s also good we don´t need infinete capacity because obviously there are not infinite refugees

Population growth across Africa and countries like Pakistan and Egypt is horrifically high…

And of those who arrive a large percentage will be denied asylum.

How does that help though, many of these people will simply not claim asylum and disappear into the black economy... even if Germany ships them back to the Balkans there is nothing stopping them just coming back.

If the refugees are divided up among the whole EU and perhaps some other European nations it would be less of an impact.

Which is where it all falls down. Germany welcomed everyone to come but now it wants other EU countries to take them off its hands with no idea that anyone would accept that- that’s not a problem for wealthy Germany, France and northern Europe but is it fair on Hungary, Greece and Southern Europe who will most likely be left with all these refugees now Germany has closed its borders?

We´ll need to take care of that problem no matter if there are refugees here or not.

Very strongly agree, but the point is that adding even just 500,000 people a year to that is going to make it a much more difficult task.

However, if we manage this right we can improve the economy in long term and profit from it.

I hope so too... but that is looking unlikely as reactionary elements start to take control of the narrative.

It is completely clear that these people don´t like brown people but are afraid to say so directly and move to ignorant, contradicting or plain stupid exuses instead.

Racists will always be racists and the growth of the far right is a terrible thing but simply dismissing the severe issues allowing such uncontrolled immigration of millions of rather different cultured people as racism is not going to solve anything. I don't have an answer to that though so it looks like Germany and the countries on the path to Germany are left with no choice.

How does this increase the problem?

The problem is people are living longer and having fewer children so are spending more and more time in retirement receiving pensions and medical care. Adding more immigrants simply adds more people to the mix now, in 40 years’ time they will all be retiring and having medical costs while unless they maintain their larger families and shorter life expectancies the exact same issue will occur with meeting the cost of caring for the elderly.

Germanys and to a lesser degree Europes population is shrinking. We have to be glad if manage to stabilize the population.

If automation is going to be destroying the labour market why would you want a growing population? What’s wrong with a very minor decrease in population size?

[salm]

The borders are closed, trains are cancelled, barb wire is being laid and soldiers are manning the borders. Their as up as they can get before the concrete walls come out.

No. There are border checks to Austria. This doesn´t mean that the borders are closed. Refugees are entering the country checked and unchecked. The ones that are checked are taken to the next police station, processed and then brought to the next camp.

Population growth across Africa and countries like Pakistan and Egypt is horrifically high…

And still they´re not comming. The Syrians weren´t comming before a civil war broke out. Could the war be the reason?

How does that help though, many of these people will simply not claim asylum and disappear into the black economy... even if Germany ships them back to the Balkans there is nothing stopping them just coming back.

If they don´t get asylum they are brought back to wherever thy came from. Simple. Some might come back or stay illegally. So? That doesn´t change anything about it. It´s not like all or the majority stay illeagally.
As for illegals, don´t worry, they can´t take our precious welfare state money. You´re not even necessarily qualified for welfare if you´re from a EU country.

Which is where it all falls down. Germany welcomed everyone to come but now it wants other EU countries to take them off its hands with no idea that anyone would accept that- that’s not a problem for wealthy Germany, France and northern Europe but is it fair on Hungary, Greece and Southern Europe who will most likely be left with all these refugees now Germany has closed its borders?

They were allready here. Germany did what EU border countries have been demanding for ages. Germany took asylum seekers which due to Dublin used to be rare. Dublin is unfair towards the border countries. We should never have implemented such an unfair rule. At least now it´s being talked about.

Germany also didn´t welcome everyone. Smugglers are spreading rumors that Merkel invited everybody and for some reason right wingers believe them. This is often said but far from true. Actually a facility is built that is pretty much an express deportation camp for people from the Balkan for example.

BTW I find it a bit strange that you argued earlier that the borders were closed but somehow Germany is also welcoming everybody.

Very strongly agree, but the point is that adding even just 500,000 people a year to that is going to make it a much more difficult task.

Only if you believe that the refugees are necessarily a drain on resources. I´m arguing that the opposite is true if the situation is tackled correctly.

Racists will always be racists and the growth of the far right is a terrible thing but simply dismissing the severe issues allowing such uncontrolled immigration of millions of rather different cultured people as racism is not going to solve anything. I don't have an answer to that though so it looks like Germany and the countries on the path to Germany are left with no choice.

Dismissing racism as racism is the only way to treat racism. You can not argue with racists because they don´t use logic. They just make up shit that in their ignorant ears sounds rational and which they believe is socially acceptable.
You say that it´s uncontrollable. You state that as if it was some sort of unalterable truth. Why? I think a lot of people underestimate what political and social will, smart investment or resources and hard work can accomplish.

The problem is people are living longer and having fewer children so are spending more and more time in retirement receiving pensions and medical care. Adding more immigrants simply adds more people to the mix now, in 40 years’ time they will all be retiring and having medical costs while unless they maintain their larger families and shorter life expectancies the exact same issue will occur with meeting the cost of caring for the elderly.

So? Even if the immigrants completely adapt to German birth rates that wouldn´t change anything about the percentage of the population in retirement homes. If you´re talking about the absolute numbers, fine, but why would that be relevant?
It´s like saying that living in Honduras is better than living in Japan because Honduras has less criminals.

If automation is going to be destroying the labour market why would you want a growing population? What’s wrong with a very minor decrease in population size?

Growing? How about a steady one? Or how about a steady one until the robots are good enough? I mean it´s going to take a generation or 7 before R2D2 can generate enough resources so that C3PO can take care of granny. We´re unfortunately not on the brink of post scarcity.

[Darth Tanner]

This doesn´t mean that the borders are closed.

Yes it does... Germany stopped the trains bringing them there, Hungary built a giant barbed wire fence to keep its border closed... Germany has done its best to cut the glow and most of Eastern Europe is get them to stop flowing through them on their way to Germany.

And still they´re not comming. The Syrians weren´t comming before a civil war broke out. Could the war be the reason?

Their potential sources for the future... significant numbers of refugees are coming from other countries like Eritrea, Somalia, Sudan, Nigeria ect ect. Can you imagine how many people would be on the move if similar violence broke out in Egypt for a protracted period?

BTW I find it a bit strange that you argued earlier that the borders were closed but somehow Germany is also welcoming everybody.

You’re misinterpreting here... Germany did openly and publically invite Syrians over by issuing a statement voiding the Dublin protocol and inviting all Syrians to head to Germany to be processed... they then changed their minds and tried to block them coming when they realised the rest of Europe would not let Germany move the refugees to them once they arrived there as they had planned without consulting any of their European neighbours.

If they don´t get asylum they are brought back to wherever thy came from. Simple.

Oh well that’s fine then as you say it’s so simple! I understand Germany currently is deporting 50,000 a year at public expense… although these figures are before 900,000 started turning up each year.

I´m arguing that the opposite is true if the situation is tackled correctly.

Good, I hope your right that Germany and the rest of Europe can teach all these people the language and integrate them into the economy. It doesn’t seem to be working now though with Germany thinking of threatening its neighbours with EU sanctions to take its refugee population burden. Even Germany is not seeing these people as potential assets under its current policy.

You say that it´s uncontrollable. You state that as if it was some sort of unalterable truth

Your inability to notice millions of people swarming into Eastern Europe and across the med in a uncontrolled manner is irrelevant… It’s currently the very definition of uncontrolled when large groups of people simply walk across your borders along motorways.

So? Even if the immigrants completely adapt to German birth rates that wouldn´t change anything about the percentage of the population in retirement homes.

Only if the immigrants are parity German citizens in terms of economic contribution... that is not likely to occur unless your integration method is fantastically successful to turn war ravaged refugees apparently with wide arrays of stress related mental illness into successful German citizens with high skilled jobs.

Growing? How about a steady one?

But you’re not going to get a steady population, it’s going to grow quite sharply with 500,000 – 1,000,000 refugees turning up each year.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Just to make things even more dangerous:

Migrants and refugees attempting to reach western Europe face the risk of landmines, aid groups fear, after the closure of the route through Hungary pushes many to look to Croatia.

Hungary today declared a state of emergency in its border regions and closed its frontier, prompting fierce condemnation from the UN and Serbia, its southern neighbour.

Tonight hundreds of migrants are camping in fields by the motorway crossing near Roszke, after police sealed the M5 – a major artery through the south of the country - with a high gated fence . It closes a route for tens of thousands of migrants this summer.

While some tried to circumvent the border by finding holes in the razor-wire fence further along, others were plotted new routes into Europe, including via Croatia raising fears of casualties from mines laid during the 1990s Balkan war.

The Hungarian border was particularly heavily mined, and there are fears that migrants, travelling through open countryside to avoid border crossing points, could put themselves at risk in unfamiliar terrain, particularly if they are unable to read warning signs. Some 680 square kilometres is still considered unsafe, totalling 9,400 fields, and at least 500 people have been killed since the war ended.

“It is very dangerous – there are more than 50,000 mines, but they do not know about that,” Daniel Szatmáry, the co-ordinator of International Relationship for Peace, a volunteer group in southern Hungary that provides food and water to migrants, told the Telegraph.


"It's hard to believe that in twenty-first century Europe, you can see barbed wire, you can see fences, you can see babies and children being treated without any kind of human dignity"

Aleksandar Vulin, Serbian minister for labour


Croatia has been largely shunned by migrants, with low numbers of asylum applications, due to its homogenous population and weak economy. But it provides an easy route, either back into Hungary, or through Slovenia to Austria and Germany beyond.

Abbas Madigar, 17, is one of 23 teenage boys and young men travelling together from Afghanistan.

“We have already crossed so many countries , and our journey was so dangerous. We don’t mind crossing some more,” he said.

“We can’t wait here for a long time. We have no information about the Croatian border – but if it is open we will go.”

Ahmed Alizodar, a student from near Kabul, said he would simply sit it out until the road opened, after having travelled for a month and five days largely by foot in the hope of reaching Germany.

“We have our dreams and we can't fulfil our dreams in Afghanistan,” he said, speaking through the fence that stretches for 110 miles.

A spokesman for the UN Refugee agency described Hungary’s stance as “alarming” and said that it would put migrants at risk by encouraging them to travel with smugglers.

“When legal avenues and official border entries are closed like this, this will put them in the hand of traffickers, putting them in danger,” said Babar Baloch. He said the border is “an ugly reminder of the iron curtain”.

The closure sparked fury from Serbia. Aleksandar Vulin, the minister for labour, told the Telegraph: “It's hard to believe that in twenty-first century Europe, you can see barbed wire, you can see fences, you can see babies and children being treated without any kind of human dignity .

“These people don't want stay in Serbia. They want to travel to Europe or wherever they want. We are not a concentration camp and we do not expect anyone to consider us as a concentration camp.

As night fell, migrants began to set up tents in the surrounding fields that were filled with the detritus of an exodus: clothes, shoes, nappies, half-eaten tins of food, excrement and an Arabic guide to London. Some migrants started a hunger strike that they vowed would not end until the border was re-opened.

“No food! No water! Until open border!” they chanted. Amongst them was Moaz Hamar from Syria, who said: “This door will open. We travelled from Syria, came by sea in a rubber dinghy. Go back? I'm not going back. We are being treated like animals.”

On the carriageway sat a queue of southbound lorries baking in the midday sun, including one with a refrigerated cargo of milk. “Just shoot them,” said one driver, mimicking a machine gun.

After Hungary passed laws making crossing the border illegally punishable by three years in prison, some 174 people were arrested over the course of the day, with 60 accused of cutting or damaging the Hungarian fence.

Hungarian police had worked through Monday night to load hundreds of migrants who had entered from Serbia in the south onto special trains running to Hegyeshalom, a town yards from the Austrian border.

At 1am, at least 20 coaches queued to load refugees onto a soviet-era 18-carriage train at Roszke, a tiny railway station surrounded by dense woodland.

Children and the elderly were hoisted by the armpits from the trackside into the packed carriages, in which men stood and children sleep at their feet.

“Bye bye friends,” said one man to the police officers, who wore surgical face masks.

The stand-off on the Hungarian-Serbian border came amid continuing divisions among European capitals over how to handle the migrant crisis.

In a sign of mounting frustration in Berlin, Germany briefly suggested that poorer central and eastern EU states who refused to accept refugee quotas should be punished by cuts to their EU development grants.

Thomas de Maiziere, Germany’s interior minister said in a television interview it was time to “talk about ways of exerting pressure”, but drew a furious response from states that have refused to bow to German pressure to accept mandatory refugee quotas.

A senior government official from the Czech Republic the German threats were “empty” since they had no legal foundation but were “very damaging” to attempt to resolve the impasse.

Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, later rowed back on the suggestion while calling for an emergency summit to forge consensus in the increasingly rancorous debate.

“Time is running out,” she said, defending Berlin’s decision last weekend to re-instate its own border controls and citing the need to “to restore a European spirit”.

A decision on whether to hold the emergency leaders’ summit will be made on Thursday, while a separate extraordinary meeting of home ministers will now be held on Tuesday to discuss whether to resettle 120,000 migrants under an EU quota system.

She was echoed by Austria’s Chancellor, Werner Faymann, who urged Europe not to let history repeat itself and follow Germany, Austria and Sweden in taking a more “humanitarian” position towards the crisis.

“We must not look the other way if there is a humanitarian crisis in Europe," he said. "We mastered the danger in the financial crisis and we proved that we could prevent a return to the solutions of the 1930s. That is what we must continue to do now."

Landmine fears.

[cmdrjones]

Their first obligation is to win the war.

According to who? You? Who made you a general?

Their first obligation is to their families.

I am speaking in a general sense, and I AM assuming that these refugees don't suddenly stop being Syrian (or Iraqi, Or afghan etc) simply due to the magic of geographic relocation. In Any nation at war, the first obligation of the men of fighting age is to WIN. THE. WAR. If these Syrians have, in effect, retreated like the brits at Dunkirk, then they should (assuming they care and are willing to return) retrain, rearm and go back and retake thier homelands (this is all in the context of a large coalition to defeat ISIS btw, I've never stated they should do it alone.
For instance, do you think Einstein should never have joined the Manhattan project? Do you think the Poles should not have joined the RAF?

PS Nobody made me a General. I earned the rank of Sergeant First Class.

Besides, as refugees they aren't doing much breadwinning.

That can be changed. Refugees in the US are able to work legally just as much as any citizen, indeed, they are encouraged to get work. If there are laws in various European nations forbidding that the laws should be changed.

That would again be up to the various Europeans.

If by chance the Arab league could make a good showing along with these men in defeating ISIS, perhaps the rest of the world would sit up, take notice and STOP deciding they can intervene in thier internal affairs all the time....

How is forcing men who have fled the Middle East to leave their families, don uniforms, take up weapons, and go back to fight NOT interfering with affairs?

Asking for volunteers is not force. Also, thier own philosophy of life demands it. I'm simply stating that the Arab league and other Muslim states step up and pull some of the load. In addition, you MIGHT get a lot more support for settling refugees in Europe if something LIKE this was implemented. Think of it as a safety valve.

Also, the women and children by your own admission are ALREADY in a state of poverty and hardship.

Actually, quite a few of the current crowd would have counted as middle class or higher before this crisis. If they're poor now it's a temporary state of affairs. By removing the men you may make that permanent.

Possibly. THis also means they have essential skills that MAY be put to better use forging the Arab League into something more robust and permanent.

I can't see how a steady paycheck from the Arab league (those guys with a big chunk of the world's oil wealth btw) could make things WORSE.

and... how is that going to happen? You gonna enforce that? What was that babbling about not interfering...?

He who has the gold.... etc. I'm assuming the Saudis could take the lead on this one. Perhaps they could hock their jets and gold toilets?

When discussing warfare, they kinda do become interchangeable units, IF the military involved does its job properly.

Please state your credentials as a military authority before you make another statement like that.

15 years total army service, 5 active. This has been done to death.

AS for bigotry... why is assuming these men can be brave, fight, and win their own nation(s) back bigotry? Do you think they can amount to nothing but wards of various european states? I've seen Arabs (Iraqis specifically) fight bravely with hardly any equipment or training. I've shared the dangers with them. For you to reflexively accuse me of bigotry is laughable.

I'm accusing you of bigotry based on your words - you wouldn't know a reflex if it kicked you in the ass.

"If" said the lacedaemonian

I don't measure a man's worth based solely on whether or not he's capable of killing another human being. It takes a fuckton of bravery to make the kind of journey these people have, on foot, or in rickety boats. Why do you dismiss that?

Why do you assume they want to go back? None of my ancestors ever went back to the nations they had fled, they liked it much better in their new land where they enjoyed much more physical safety and the ability to make a living without having it all snatched away by someone else. The truth is YOU want them to go back, so you don't have to associate with "them".

Why do you assume they will all remain "wards" of the state? Why do you discount their ability to adapt and become fully functioning members of the societies of their new nations of residence? Do you think they are less than you? Isn't that bigotry?

I don't dismiss it, I think it's just not sufficient to defeat the primary driver of this crisis. I Assume they DON'T want to go back, I also don't care. As far as associating with them. Even if I DID want to love and hug every one of them, it's not up to you OR me, it's up to the Europeans. i'm simply describing an alternative course of action.

I assume they will most likely remain wards of the state because of their continued demands to be sent to countries with generous benefits rather than those full of their fellow muslims. I assume they won't become fully functioning members of the societies that they migrate to because the suburbs of paris seem to burn on a regular basis, and artists, drummers, newspaper reporters, cops, railway passengers, grocery customers, jews and so on have a distrubing tendency to get stabbed, beheaded, shot, shot, blown up, shot and beheaded now and again.

I think they are human with their own desires, culture, history, language, and religion and YOU assuming that they can be "adapted" into whatever you think they should be carries just a whiff of bigotry.

[salm]

Yes it does... Germany stopped the trains bringing them there, Hungary built a giant barbed wire fence to keep its border closed... Germany has done its best to cut the glow and most of Eastern Europe is get them to stop flowing through them on their way to Germany.

No it doesn´t. Refugees are still entering the country illegaly and legaly.
Link

Their potential sources for the future... significant numbers of refugees are coming from other countries like Eritrea, Somalia, Sudan, Nigeria ect ect. Can you imagine how many people would be on the move if similar violence broke out in Egypt for a protracted period?

So, wars displace people. It´s been like this forever. Perhaps we shouldn´t destabilize foreign countries in the future.

You’re misinterpreting here... Germany did openly and publically invite Syrians over by issuing a statement voiding the Dublin protocol and inviting all Syrians to head to Germany to be processed... they then changed their minds and tried to block them coming when they realised the rest of Europe would not let Germany move the refugees to them once they arrived there as they had planned without consulting any of their European neighbours.

It was allways said that this is a special case only. It was never mentioned that Dublin was voided for ever. Regarding the blocking: See above.

Oh well that’s fine then as you say it’s so simple! I understand Germany currently is deporting 50,000 a year at public expense… although these figures are before 900,000 started turning up each year.

That´s a public expense you have to pay if you implement a system in which you can only apply for asylum on the soil of the relevant country. Other countries, like the USA, accept asylum requests from outside the country. Furthermore buying 50000 plane tickets isn´t all that expensive compared to other expenses asylum seeking brings with it.

Good, I hope your right that Germany and the rest of Europe can teach all these people the language and integrate them into the economy. It doesn’t seem to be working now though with Germany thinking of threatening its neighbours with EU sanctions to take its refugee population burden. Even Germany is not seeing these people as potential assets under its current policy.

I´d give it some more time before claiming that it´s not working.

Your inability to notice millions of people swarming into Eastern Europe and across the med in a uncontrolled manner is irrelevant… It’s currently the very definition of uncontrolled when large groups of people simply walk across your borders along motorways.

Ah, that´s what you meant. I read it as "it´s impossible to control". Sorry.
I think we´ll just have to get used to it. They´re comming and we can´t shoot them. They´ll come. It´s better to work out solutions so eveybody can profit from the situation than think about how it would be if they didn´t come.

Only if the immigrants are parity German citizens in terms of economic contribution... that is not likely to occur unless your integration method is fantastically successful to turn war ravaged refugees apparently with wide arrays of stress related mental illness into successful German citizens with high skilled jobs.

Yes, I think the integration can work good enough. The fact that the migrants are young and - i assume - have better reproduction habbits buy us a generation or probably even two or three of time. If we fail to improve the reproduction situation our decendants will have to import even more young foreigners. There´s no shortage, so this strategy should work for a while.

But you’re not going to get a steady population, it’s going to grow quite sharply with 500,000 – 1,000,000 refugees turning up each year.

Actually due to the demographic change the federal office of statistics is estimating a population decline from about 80 million now to 70 million in 2060. We need people.

[Broomstick]

Their first obligation is to win the war.

According to who? You? Who made you a general?

Their first obligation is to their families.

I am speaking in a general sense, and I AM assuming that these refugees don't suddenly stop being Syrian (or Iraqi, Or afghan etc) simply due to the magic of geographic relocation.

On the other hand, people who abandon their country might no feel they have an obligation to a failed state or oppressive government. One can have a cultural identity without supporting the current regime(s) in power.

In Any nation at war, the first obligation of the men of fighting age is to WIN. THE. WAR.

Based on... what? You state this like it's an immutable natural fact, like gravity. Where does this come from?

Does this mean that nations that surrender, like Japan or Germany or Italy in WWII, are failed states? That their men are somehow unmanned? Are you saying it would have been better for everyone in those nations to die rather than surrender when defeat was inevitable?

If these Syrians have, in effect, retreated like the brits at Dunkirk, then they should (assuming they care and are willing to return) retrain, rearm and go back and retake thier homelands (this is all in the context of a large coalition to defeat ISIS btw,

Er... the Brits at Dunkirk, presuming you mean the evacuation of 1940, were going back to Britain, they weren't fleeing to an entirely different country. The Syrians aren't just fleeing Syria, they're fleeing to an entire other continent. What a shitty analogy, try again.

And what “large coalition to defeat ISIS”? The one that exists only in your imagination at this point?

For instance, do you think Einstein should never have joined the Manhattan project?

Einstein was not part of the Manhattan project. His sole contribution was to urge President Roosevelt to fund research into atomic weapons, an action he later said was his biggest mistake and largest regret. Einstein himself did not participate in the Manhattan project.

History wasn't your strong suit, was it?

Do you think the Poles should not have joined the RAF?

Not something I know anything about so I don't feel compelled to comment on it.

PS Nobody made me a General. I earned the rank of Sergeant First Class.

So, you're low-level management, then?

If by chance the Arab league could make a good showing along with these men in defeating ISIS, perhaps the rest of the world would sit up, take notice and STOP deciding they can intervene in thier internal affairs all the time....

As long as there is petroleum in the Middle East and modern civilization is utterly dependent on petroleum interference in the region by other powers will not stop.

How is forcing men who have fled the Middle East to leave their families, don uniforms, take up weapons, and go back to fight NOT interfering with affairs?

Asking for volunteers is not force.

Funny – you sounded like you were going to compel their participation. What do you do if it turns out the majority don't want to fight? After all, they've already fled the war zone.

Also, thier own philosophy of life demands it.

Is that like Catholics are supposed to avoid birth control and sex outside of marriage? You know, a “philosophy of life” much celebrated in speech but not often put into practice.

I'm simply stating that the Arab league and other Muslim states step up and pull some of the load. In addition, you MIGHT get a lot more support for settling refugees in Europe if something LIKE this was implemented. Think of it as a safety valve.

3 million Syrians (never mind additional refugees that exist) have been taken in by other Arab nations, in many cases nations with weak economies and serious problems of their own. The neighboring Muslim/Arab states are FULL, with the exception of Saudi Arabia which has still taken in 100,000. Saudi Arabia also sponsors Wahhabism, which is the Islamic sect that has inspired the likes of Al Qaeda and ISIS so I'm not sure why the Syrians would even want to go there.

Actually, quite a few of the current crowd would have counted as middle class or higher before this crisis. If they're poor now it's a temporary state of affairs. By removing the men you may make that permanent.

Possibly. THis also means they have essential skills that MAY be put to better use forging the Arab League into something more robust and permanent.

Are you even aware that Syria is NOT part of the Arab League? It's like expecting Europe to take care of Iran, or Europe inviting Lybia into the EU. Much like the UK is not part of the EU and the euro-zone monetary system even if the UK is usually considered “European” and is certainly a close neighbor.

This is why I say you're racist – just because the Syrians are Arab doesn't mean they are part of the Arab League, or want to be part of it. Just because Syrians and Saudis are both Muslim doesn't mean the two groups will see eye to eye. (The Sunni/Shia division runs very deep at times)

I can't see how a steady paycheck from the Arab league (those guys with a big chunk of the world's oil wealth btw) could make things WORSE.

So... how are you going to convince the Arab lead to give “paycheck” to a group of people who aren't part of the league?

(While there is a Syrian delegation of sorts sitting in with the Arab League, Assad's government was suspended from the AL in 2011 and neither is ISIS a member, the AL group is but one faction among many and certainly does not represent the whole of Syria at this point.)

and... how is that going to happen? You gonna enforce that? What was that babbling about not interfering...?

He who has the gold.... etc. I'm assuming the Saudis could take the lead on this one. Perhaps they could hock their jets and gold toilets?

And... why would the Saudis take the lead? Why would they give a fuck? They support Wahhibism, which has more in common with ISIS than the refugees fleeing the area or with Assad's government. They certainly don't give a flying fuck about Shia Muslims, much less the non-Muslim population of Syria, or the non-Muslim refugees (about 13% of the current population is non-Muslim)

15 years total army service, 5 active. This has been done to death.

Since I'm not a member of your fan club and don't follow your every post I had no way to know this short of asking. Fuck you if that makes you pissy.

I think you do fail to understand the differences between a voluntary military and one composed of draftees. Frankly, I'm not sure why you'd want to draft a bunch of fleeing refugees, I mean, they've already fled once, what's to stop them doing it again?

I Assume they DON'T want to go back, I also don't care.

Obviously you don't care since you keep talking about exerting coercion on a bunch of people who just fled an active war zone to go back there. But go ahead, keep looking like an asshat.

I assume they will most likely remain wards of the state because of their continued demands to be sent to countries with generous benefits rather than those full of their fellow muslims.

As I noted, 3 million have already taken up residence with their fellow Muslims. And I fail to see how, if you're fleeing already, desiring to go to a place with a healthy economy makes you a deadbeat. Yes, places like Germany have generous benefits but that's also where the jobs are, the places where long-time survival and prosperity are most likely.

This is just more of you wanting to dump several million more people on nations that are already poor and struggling to cope.

I assume they won't become fully functioning members of the societies that they migrate to because the suburbs of paris seem to burn on a regular basis, and artists, drummers, newspaper reporters, cops, railway passengers, grocery customers, jews and so on have a distrubing tendency to get stabbed, beheaded, shot, shot, blown up, shot and beheaded now and again.

Funny, though – that doesn't happen in Southeast Michigan which has the largest concentration of Muslims and Arabs (of all religions) in the US. So clearly Arabs and Muslims are not pre-ordained to be perpetual outsiders in a western nation or a source of on-going violence.

I think they are human with their own desires, culture, history, language, and religion and YOU assuming that they can be "adapted" into whatever you think they should be carries just a whiff of bigotry.

No, I think they are individuals and will make a range of choices, from living apart and/or migrating to a Muslim nation to choosing to live in a pluralistic society, or even become “secular Muslims” similar to Cafeteria Catholics and Christmas/Easter Christians. They don't need to be compelled to return to a fight they have fled, or funneled to nations already struggling with millions of refugees. In other words, I think they're people, not pawns.

[Broomstick]

I think we´ll just have to get used to it. They´re comming and we can´t shoot them.

Sure they can be shot. I think the idea is utterly horrific but it is a possibility.

The Hungarians were using tear gas and pepper spray on people today. Yay, they didn't resort to deadly force but things are definitely getting uglier. It's not beyond imagination that a group could try to storm the fences and if that happens the situation could get uglier still.

They´ll come. It´s better to work out solutions so eveybody can profit from the situation than think about how it would be if they didn´t come.

^ This is probably the best long-term tactic.

[ray245]

No, I think they are individuals and will make a range of choices, from living apart and/or migrating to a Muslim nation to choosing to live in a pluralistic society, or even become “secular Muslims” similar to Cafeteria Catholics and Christmas/Easter Christians. They don't need to be compelled to return to a fight they have fled, or funneled to nations already struggling with millions of refugees. In other words, I think they're people, not pawns.

Convincing anyone who fears 'hordes of Muslims' coming into Europe that they could become secular Muslims is a pretty hard task. Not when everyone has been hearing more stories of Muslims failing to integrate into Europe because of salafist teachings.

[Broomstick]

Yes, but I appear to enjoy tilting at windmills, I do it so often...

[amigocabal]

Convincing anyone who fears 'hordes of Muslims' coming into Europe that they could become secular Muslims is a pretty hard task. Not when everyone has been hearing more stories of Muslims failing to integrate into Europe because of salafist teachings.

This does beg the question of why Germany would have any more of an obligation to take in these refugees than China, India, or America.

Are not Turkey, Israel, and Jordan much closer?

[Lonestar]

Turkey and Jordan have actually already taken in millions. So has Lebanon. For what I hope are obvious reasons not too many have made their way to Israel.

I'd say that the KSA and GCC nations have more of an obligation, since they've been using the Syrian Civil War as a proxy war against Iran.