Trump Dump: Foreign Policy (Thread I)

[The Romulan Republic]

Quite. Although the only way to hold him accountable is to vote him out, really, when its not a case of him breaking the law.

Not that there aren't plenty of other possible grounds for impeachment.

As an aside, if the President, any President. ever did go nuts and decide to do a first strike with nukes for no reason, I sincerely hope his Secret Service Guards would be men enough to either restrain him or shoot him down on the spot.

[Adam Reynolds]

Quite. Although the only way to hold him accountable is to vote him out, really, when its not a case of him breaking the law.

Not that there aren't plenty of other possible grounds for impeachment.

As an aside, if the President, any President. ever did go nuts and decide to do a first strike with nukes for no reason, I sincerely hope his Secret Service Guards would be men enough to either restrain him or shoot him down on the spot.

That is why nuclear launch codes have a two man rule, to prevent exactly this scenario.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, there's a specific person who carries around the briefcase with the nuclear launch codes (called the 'nuclear football'). The Secretary of Defense has to confirm the launch order, but legally cannot veto it... although "about to start a nuclear war" is the kind of situation where good men tend to ignore the legalities and follow basic common sense; there's a reason I used to have a sig commemorating Vasily Arkhipov. Come to think of it, I might want to fix that.

[Terralthra]

If you ever want to lose some time and possibly a night or two of sleep, you can check out the Union of Concerned Scientist's Nuclear Close Calls site.

[Batman]

The Secretary of Defense has to confirm the launch order, but legally cannot veto it.

Um-if he has to confirm, and can choose NOT to do so, isn't that kind of the same thing as a veto?

[Napoleon the Clown]

The Secretary of Defense has to confirm the launch order, but legally cannot veto it.

Um-if he has to confirm, and can choose NOT to do so, isn't that kind of the same thing as a veto?

Legally he probably has to confirm if the order does come from the POTUS... From a legal perspective, he does not have authority to disregard the president's orders. It's like when a cop will ignore you having weed. It doesn't mean that he's saying weed isn't illegal, he's just pretending he saw nothing.

[Kingmaker]

The Secretary of Defense has to confirm the launch order, but legally cannot veto it.

Um-if he has to confirm, and can choose NOT to do so, isn't that kind of the same thing as a veto?

It could fall under the category of 'ministerial duty', which is to say a duty of the office which he has no discretion in executing.

[Batman]

If he or she has to say yes anyway what's the point of requiring the confirmation?

[Ralin]

If he or she has to say yes anyway what's the point of requiring the confirmation?

I mean, the president could be drunk or something. And theoretically everyone in the military has a duty to refuse illegal orders.

[The Romulan Republic]

Or, presumably, he could block an order from someone who didn't have the authority to give it (i.e. not the President), though I don't see how that could happen in practice.

Barring getting rid of nuclear weapons altogether (or at least developing much better missile defence systems), I'd sleep easier if the US adopted a no first-strike policy, and passed legislation prohibiting the President from launching a first strike.

If you ever want to lose some time and possibly a night or two of sleep, you can check out the Union of Concerned Scientist's Nuclear Close Calls site.

Shit like this is a big part of why I'm so nervous about nuclear weapons. Its hard to have even a passing familiarity with the history of "close calls" and not conclude that we have been extremely lucky, and that like any gambler on a winning streak, if we don't stop playing, eventually we'll lose big time.

[Ralin]

Seems to me that the arrangement has an unspoken "This is just in case the president is insane or high and someone needs to intervene for some reason" element to it, regardless of whether it was ever said or written down. In much the same way that if the Supreme Court heard a case involving traffic tickets and ended up voting five to four to suspend elections, dismiss Congress, declare the Chief Justice king of America and exile all dissenting justices to Canada everyone would conclude they had gone nuts and ignore them.

This is probably a bad thing to count on, because the US military is really good at following orders.

[Galvatron]

I wonder how Hannity would spin a nuclear first strike for Trump. After all, he had the legal authority to do it. What's everyone bitching about?

[Simon_Jester]

That's... pretty much it right there, probably.

[The Romulan Republic]

Seems to me that the arrangement has an unspoken "This is just in case the president is insane or high and someone needs to intervene for some reason" element to it, regardless of whether it was ever said or written down. In much the same way that if the Supreme Court heard a case involving traffic tickets and ended up voting five to four to suspend elections, dismiss Congress, declare the Chief Justice king of America and exile all dissenting justices to Canada everyone would conclude they had gone nuts and ignore them.

This is probably a bad thing to count on, because the US military is really good at following orders.

Notable exceptions aside.

That said... I do think that there is a line, probably, for a lot of people in the armed forces. I wonder if there are many who would be willing to, say, torture and murder dark-skinned foreigners who would baulk if ordered to fire on their neighbours. I don't know, and sincerely hope that it is never put to the test.

[Simon_Jester]

There can also be a psychological line between doing terrible things to people who you think are part of the group that's been killing your friends and trying to kill you, and pushing a button that indiscriminately kills millions of people with little or no provocation.

[Ralin]

Have you guys not been paying attention to how the police keep murdering black people and shit? Law enforcement isn't the military, but there's a whole lot of overlap between them.

Yeah sure, some people would balk and refuse orders. But this is not something we should remotely count on.

Notable exceptions aside.

I think there's a pretty big difference between refusing for a few minutes or hours because you think that the incoming ICBMs might be a flock of geese and literally trying to stop the president from launching a premeditated attack.

[Flagg]

Have you guys not been paying attention to how the police keep murdering black people and shit? Law enforcement isn't the military, but there's a whole lot of overlap between them.

Yeah sure, some people would balk and refuse orders. But this is not something we should remotely count on.

Yeah, the whole process is indoctrination to follow orders. Then you have the loyalty factor. I mean a cop that reports a fellow officer for illegal activities is a "rat". The mafia uses the same terminology and the fact that this doesn't seem to compute is actually pretty horrific.

[Galvatron]

I was conditioned by Hollywood to hate Internal Affairs.

[Flagg]

I was conditioned by Hollywood to hate Internal Affairs.

Fucking rat squad.

[The Romulan Republic]

Someone totally needs to make a gritty cop show or big budget action movie about a heroic Internal Affairs officer.

Damn, just typing that makes me want to write it.

[Galvatron]

If Internal Affairs was as lauded in popular culture as rogue cops are, we might not have some of the problems with police brutality and corruption that we have now.

[The Romulan Republic]

I feel like, with all the anger around police brutality, there would be at least a niche market now for films outside of the tired old Rogue Cop Who Does "What Needs To Be Done" stereotypes.

[Terralthra]

There are such movies, periodically. Training Day covers the fall of a corrupt cop, for example.

[Galvatron]

Yeah, but so many Hollywood "hero cops" are depicted as unorthodox rule-benders.

[Ralin]

Yeah, but so many Hollywood "hero cops" are depicted as unorthodox rule-benders.

So are a lot of heroes in general.