Soviet-style Breadlines come to America.

[Terralthra]

I'm not sure anyone's claiming they were (universal), simply that they were fairly commonplace among everyday people (in the USSR). I think you're trying too hard to make your theory fit the facts, but the facts simply don't support your theory.

You know, when someone mentions a "Soviet-style military parade", everyone understands that it's just a military parade which looks like a Soviet one. No one insists that all of the underlying socio-economic conditions must also match. Why the different standard for a "Soviet-style breadline?" This smells to me like a goalpost which has been recently moved.

The thing that puts it into this dispute is that the Duchess was originally making a prediction of the future. In order to have it be a worthwhile prediction, it would have to significantly differ from the present, or it's just "things will continue on as they have," which has little predictive value. She is attempting to represent what she quotes in the parent post as a "Soviet-style bread line," thus fulfilling her prediction, when, as many have pointed out, this is nothing new. If this qualifies as a Soviet-style bread line, then we've had Soviet-style bread lines for the past twentyish years, at a bare minimum. So, what was the point of the prediction?

What makes this particular line at a subsidized food bank any more Soviet-style than the line at the subsidized food bank last year?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

One of my girlfriend's friends came over to America from a wealthy family in the Ukraine. She talks about Soviet style bread lines. When people wealthy enough to pick up and leave the fucking country have to stand in breadlines, then we are starting to get Soviet style. Otherwise, yes there are problems in America, especially when it comes to any socialistic system like food banks. It is because of America's piss poor social safety nets and are moronically lax attitudes about such things. It will get worse. Being a drama queen about it makes you look like a shrill bitch. This is the kind of overacting bullshit we pan Hillary on. Why do you expect Skimmer or IP to treat it differently, because it's you?

Jesus fucking christ, you stupid dolt, when have I said anything about the situation about to fall apart right now? The actual fact was that this has been continuously manipulated. And by the way, the modern-day Ukraine is not part of the Soviet Union--which has actually, at least initially, made things worse for them, since they were no longer part of the integrated economy of the USSR. I repeat, things got worse after the USSR collapsed, and if she came over from the Independent Ukraine that is the actual interpretation.

At any rate, I said there would be bread lines, and there are bread lines. Nice long ones. I love the massive amounts of spin you throw up over this fact. Does this mean our society is falling apart? Fuck no; the Soviets were launching Mir at the same time they had bread lines. I'm far more optimistic than Valdemar is.

But you didn't say there were just bread lines though. The very OP and title of the thread refers to them being "Soviet-style", which is a bit of a difference.

Nobody has yet explained why breadlines in the USSR were unique to me yet. It's just a descriptor I chose, and we do have bread lines. People bring up systematic bread shortages, but that isn't the same thing.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm not sure anyone's claiming they were (universal), simply that they were fairly commonplace among everyday people (in the USSR). I think you're trying too hard to make your theory fit the facts, but the facts simply don't support your theory.

You know, when someone mentions a "Soviet-style military parade", everyone understands that it's just a military parade which looks like a Soviet one. No one insists that all of the underlying socio-economic conditions must also match. Why the different standard for a "Soviet-style breadline?" This smells to me like a goalpost which has been recently moved.

The thing that puts it into this dispute is that the Duchess was originally making a prediction of the future. In order to have it be a worthwhile prediction, it would have to significantly differ from the present, or it's just "things will continue on as they have," which has little predictive value. She is attempting to represent what she quotes in the parent post as a "Soviet-style bread line," thus fulfilling her prediction, when, as many have pointed out, this is nothing new. If this qualifies as a Soviet-style bread line, then we've had Soviet-style bread lines for the past twentyish years, at a bare minimum. So, what was the point of the prediction?

What makes this particular line at a subsidized food bank any more Soviet-style than the line at the subsidized food bank last year?

There WAS no prediction! It was just a goddamned offhand comment I made in a thread while talking about my personal experiences trying to buy some rice. Moo had to turn it into a big deal, and I'm repaying the favour by observing that there ARE bread lines in the United States, which have gotten worse as a result of the same pressures which have created that rice shortage.

It really is both amusing and informative how everyone has bitten into that single offhand comment rather than discuss anything substantial, like the potential consequences of increases in food price, which Moo rather chillingly put in the quote I have in my sig--"consumption patterns will change, so demand will still be met".

Think about what that means for a moment.

[Broomstick]

>cough<

Could someone please DEFINE "soviet-style breadline" so we all are operating from the same definition instead of pulling multiple ones out of our collective asses?

[Gil Hamilton]

It really is both amusing and informative how everyone has bitten into that single offhand comment rather than discuss anything substantial, like the potential consequences of increases in food price, which Moo rather chillingly put in the quote I have in my sig--"consumption patterns will change, so demand will still be met".

Think about what that means for a moment.

To be fair, Marina, "Consumption patterns will change, so demand will still be met" and "Consumption patterns will change, but demand will still be met" (which is what you have quoted in your sig), imply two significantly different things.

[apocolypse]

Jesus fucking christ, you stupid dolt, when have I said anything about the situation about to fall apart right now? The actual fact was that this has been continuously manipulated. And by the way, the modern-day Ukraine is not part of the Soviet Union--which has actually, at least initially, made things worse for them, since they were no longer part of the integrated economy of the USSR. I repeat, things got worse after the USSR collapsed, and if she came over from the Independent Ukraine that is the actual interpretation.

At any rate, I said there would be bread lines, and there are bread lines. Nice long ones. I love the massive amounts of spin you throw up over this fact. Does this mean our society is falling apart? Fuck no; the Soviets were launching Mir at the same time they had bread lines. I'm far more optimistic than Valdemar is.

But you didn't say there were just bread lines though. The very OP and title of the thread refers to them being "Soviet-style", which is a bit of a difference.

Nobody has yet explained why breadlines in the USSR were unique to me yet. It's just a descriptor I chose, and we do have bread lines. People bring up systematic bread shortages, but that isn't the same thing.

It isn't? I had always heard that the reason for breadlines in the USSR was due to a lack of the product, high demand low supply so to speak. If that's not the case, then I am in error. The difference to me (operating under the previous assumption) was that we do have the supply, it's just that finances themselves are a bit tighter than normal.

Further, and I'm sure this is propaganda at play, but in the US breadlines seemed more commonplace in the Soviet Union as opposed to America. So when you say "Soviet-style", the expectation is that there would be many of them. My two cents/rambling thoughts on the matter.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It really is both amusing and informative how everyone has bitten into that single offhand comment rather than discuss anything substantial, like the potential consequences of increases in food price, which Moo rather chillingly put in the quote I have in my sig--"consumption patterns will change, so demand will still be met".

Think about what that means for a moment.

To be fair, Marina, "Consumption patterns will change, so demand will still be met" and "Consumption patterns will change, but demand will still be met" (which is what you have quoted in your sig), imply two significantly different things.

Not to me, at least. Either phrasing works to imply that demand will decrease, non?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

>cough<

Could someone please DEFINE "soviet-style breadline" so we all are operating from the same definition instead of pulling multiple ones out of our collective asses?

When I first used the phrase, I just imagined a line of a hundred or two hundred people standing out front of a building, and wrote down what it felt like. There was no deeper thought behind it. I'm not sure why there should have been--I was just reporting some personal experiences in that thread, after all.

[thejester]

I'm not sure anyone's claiming they were (universal), simply that they were fairly commonplace among everyday people (in the USSR). I think you're trying too hard to make your theory fit the facts, but the facts simply don't support your theory.

You know, when someone mentions a "Soviet-style military parade", everyone understands that it's just a military parade which looks like a Soviet one. No one insists that all of the underlying socio-economic conditions must also match. Why the different standard for a "Soviet-style breadline?" This smells to me like a goalpost which has been recently moved.

Why not just say breadline, or if you need a historical reference a Great Depression breadline? My first thought on seeing 'Soviet-style' was that there was a literal shortage of food, which is clearly not the case - and which IIRC was the original point Ossus and the Duchess disagreed about. The string of posts from phongn, IP, Death etc would suggest I wasn't the only. Whilst it's tragic that poverty like that exists in the US, it's a far cry from the claims that the US was literally going to run out of food.

[Balrog]

I'm not sure anyone's claiming they were (universal), simply that they were fairly commonplace among everyday people (in the USSR). I think you're trying too hard to make your theory fit the facts, but the facts simply don't support your theory.

You know, when someone mentions a "Soviet-style military parade", everyone understands that it's just a military parade which looks like a Soviet one. No one insists that all of the underlying socio-economic conditions must also match. Why the different standard for a "Soviet-style breadline?" This smells to me like a goalpost which has been recently moved.

Why not just say breadline, or if you need a historical reference a Great Depression breadline? My first thought on seeing 'Soviet-style' was that there was a literal shortage of food, which is clearly not the case - and which IIRC was the original point Ossus and the Duchess disagreed about. The string of posts from phongn, IP, Death etc would suggest I wasn't the only. Whilst it's tragic that poverty like that exists in the US, it's a far cry from the claims that the US was literally going to run out of food.

I must concur. As others have pointed out, breadlines were not something seen only in the Soviet Union, but the mention of "Soviet-style" breadlines implies the reason why there are breadlines. Perhaps "Great Depression" would've been the better description, since the reasoning behind it - an economy going into the shitter - is more appropriate then actually running out of bread.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

To everyone in this damned thread (except Mike, graciously) :

When you see a line of 147 people trailing around a building, and you ask them what they're waiting for, and they say "bread", that is a fucking bread line. And more to the point, it looks like something straight out of 1982 in Moscow. What is so hard to process about this? Or, dare I say, what is so uncomfortable to process about this?

[Darth Wong]

I'm not sure anyone's claiming they were (universal), simply that they were fairly commonplace among everyday people (in the USSR). I think you're trying too hard to make your theory fit the facts, but the facts simply don't support your theory.

You know, when someone mentions a "Soviet-style military parade", everyone understands that it's just a military parade which looks like a Soviet one. No one insists that all of the underlying socio-economic conditions must also match. Why the different standard for a "Soviet-style breadline?" This smells to me like a goalpost which has been recently moved.

Why not just say breadline, or if you need a historical reference a Great Depression breadline?

Probably because the Great Depression occurred decades before any of us were born, while Soviet breadlines were a widely printed image during our lifetimes. Also because Marina probably figured no one would be such a fucking jackass that he would read all kinds of totally unnecessary meaning into "Soviet style", as if the word "style" actually means "indicator that all underlying socio-economic principles and conditions are identical".

The fact is that I've seen this kind of behaviour before; she said something that triggered your automatic "defend America" reflex, which is why everyone leapt up to say "NEIN! NOT HERE!" when she said it. It's not that difficult to trigger the "defend America" reflex, and when it happens, the same standards which apply to other debates suddenly do not apply any more. It's totally OK to read completely unnecessary meaning into anything someone says, or to dismiss any and all comparisons with whatever excuse comes to mind.

[apocolypse]

You know, when someone mentions a "Soviet-style military parade", everyone understands that it's just a military parade which looks like a Soviet one. No one insists that all of the underlying socio-economic conditions must also match. Why the different standard for a "Soviet-style breadline?" This smells to me like a goalpost which has been recently moved.

Why not just say breadline, or if you need a historical reference a Great Depression breadline?

Probably because the Great Depression occurred decades before any of us were born, while Soviet breadlines were a widely printed image during our lifetimes. Also because Marina probably figured no one would be such a fucking jackass that he would read all kinds of totally unnecessary meaning into "Soviet style", as if the word "style" actually means "indicator that all underlying socio-economic principles and conditions are identical".

The fact that she put "Soviet style" at all to me implied some sort of parity, and apparently to many others as well. It has less to do with "Defend America" since many have pointed out that breadlines have and do occur, and mostly with clarification as no one understood where she was coming from with this. Now that she's explained it I understand what she meant by it.

[Darth Wong]

The fact that she put "Soviet style" at all to me implied some sort of parity, and apparently to many others as well.

Why?

It has less to do with "Defend America" since many have pointed out that breadlines have and do occur, and mostly with clarification as no one understood where she was coming from with this. Now that she's explained it I understand what she meant by it.

Funny how I, as a non-American, understood it right away. What makes you so sure it has nothing to do with the "defend America" reflex?

[Gil Hamilton]

Not to me, at least. Either phrasing works to imply that demand will decrease, non?

"so demand will still be met" kind of implies to me that it will be forced, even if the level is starvation. "but demand will still be met" kind of implies to me a survivable level of subsistence.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Not to me, at least. Either phrasing works to imply that demand will decrease, non?

"so demand will still be met" kind of implies to me that it will be forced, even if the level is starvation. "but demand will still be met" kind of implies to me a survivable level of subsistence.

I just don't see that kind of nuance out of the word choice.

[Ghost Rider]

To everyone in this damned thread (except Mike, graciously) :

When you see a line of 147 people trailing around a building, and you ask them what they're waiting for, and they say "bread", that is a fucking bread line. And more to the point, it looks like something straight out of 1982 in Moscow. What is so hard to process about this? Or, dare I say, what is so uncomfortable to process about this?

Actually not much at all, except a few are attributing this to an earlier comment you made that these things would pop up because of the current economic and fuel crisis that are happening.

That and these bread lines, or food how you wil,l have existed in America for a rather considerable period of time. I remembered them as a kid in Alexandria(and yes, on a cold winter's day easily packing fifty to sixty people) and the place still stands. This is honestly not a new thing and my only disturbed thought(beyond that people don't want to acknowledge these things happening here) is how many are tied to church activities.

[apocolypse]

The fact that she put "Soviet style" at all to me implied some sort of parity, and apparently to many others as well.

Why?

It has less to do with "Defend America" since many have pointed out that breadlines have and do occur, and mostly with clarification as no one understood where she was coming from with this. Now that she's explained it I understand what she meant by it.

Funny how I, as a non-American, understood it right away. What makes you so sure it has nothing to do with the "defend America" reflex?

As to why, when you specify a country you imply some sort of similarity to said country in some form, at least to me. Perhaps an utterly crap example being, if someone started a thread stating "Canadian style gun control in America" I would assume America is implementing gun control laws similar as to what Canada has.

And as to why it doesn't necessarily have to do with "defend America", it's because there's no denying there are issues with the economy et al. What was being rebutted was the implication that it was "Soviet-style", and that's where perhaps there was some misunderstanding or miscommunication. For me, and likely many other Americans, "Soviet-style" implies a not only a shortage of the good, but a widespread shortage. Since there's no actual shortage of bread, it didn't make any sense to me.

[Darth Wong]

The fact that she put "Soviet style" at all to me implied some sort of parity, and apparently to many others as well.

Why?

It has less to do with "Defend America" since many have pointed out that breadlines have and do occur, and mostly with clarification as no one understood where she was coming from with this. Now that she's explained it I understand what she meant by it.

Funny how I, as a non-American, understood it right away. What makes you so sure it has nothing to do with the "defend America" reflex?

As to why, when you specify a country you imply some sort of similarity to said country in some form, at least to me. Perhaps an utterly crap example being, if someone started a thread stating "Canadian style gun control in America" I would assume America is implementing gun control laws similar as to what Canada has.

Exactly. You would not assume the similarity extends anywhere outside those particular gun control laws. And yet, when it's breadlines, you assume the similarities extend to the underlying socio-economic conditions. As if "Soviet-style breadlines" means "Soviet-style agricultural shortages ... and lines".

And as to why it doesn't necessarily have to do with "defend America", it's because there's no denying there are issues with the economy et al. What was being rebutted was the implication that it was "Soviet-style", and that's where perhaps there was some misunderstanding or miscommunication. For me, and likely many other Americans, "Soviet-style" implies a not only a shortage of the good, but a widespread shortage. Since there's no actual shortage of bread, it didn't make any sense to me.

You honestly refuse to admit that there could have been any kind of defensive reflex in your response, don't you?

[Gil Hamilton]

I just don't see that kind of nuance out of the word choice.

"So" makes the latter half of the sentence a consequence of the former half. "But" makes the latter half of the sentence an alternate result. That's how I read it, at least. But, really, that's semantics.

On the topic at hand, there have always been soup kitchens and bread doles. My family even went to one a couple of times during the late 80s after my father was sacked from Westinghouse Electric and we hit a real rough patch. That's a sign of the times, but not necessarily a permanent one.

[apocolypse]

Why? Funny how I, as a non-American, understood it right away. What makes you so sure it has nothing to do with the "defend America" reflex?

As to why, when you specify a country you imply some sort of similarity to said country in some form, at least to me. Perhaps an utterly crap example being, if someone started a thread stating "Canadian style gun control in America" I would assume America is implementing gun control laws similar as to what Canada has.

Exactly. You would not assume the similarity extends anywhere outside those particular gun control laws. And yet, when it's breadlines, you assume the similarities extend to the underlying socio-economic conditions. As if "Soviet-style breadlines" means "Soviet-style agricultural shortages ... and lines".

Yes because it's two different examples. Gun control laws don't have to do with supply and demand or the economy.

You honestly refuse to admit that there could have been any kind of defensive reflex in your response, don't you?

There's nothing defensive about it. I already explained what the implication of "Soviet style" meant to myself, and others here. It's the implication that was being discussed, no one has denied that the economy sucks or that America is hurting atm.

[Broomstick]

To everyone in this damned thread (except Mike, graciously) :

When you see a line of 147 people trailing around a building, and you ask them what they're waiting for, and they say "bread", that is a fucking bread line. And more to the point, it looks like something straight out of 1982 in Moscow. What is so hard to process about this? Or, dare I say, what is so uncomfortable to process about this?

I guess from my point of view between 1986 and 1989 I stood in a lot of lines for food, either because the place wasn't open yet, or there were just a lot of people showing up at the same time. I recall several instances when we were queuing up for government cheese and flour where the line ran around the block. Is that 147? I have no idea, I didn't count them, but it was an impressive line.

Maybe I don't glom onto "1982 Moscow" because in 1982 I didn't happen to own a TV?

I guess when I see a line around the block at a food pantry I don't think "soviet" I think "Howard Street food distribution office, Chicago 1987", but that's because of my personal history. I also grew up with my mother's stories of the Great Depression, but I don't expect people half my age to know even as much as I do about it, and my knowledge is far from complete.

I don't have a problem with the phrase "soviet-style breadline", and never did dispute it as a descriptor. It's your politics and views on government and economy I disagree with, and that's nothing new. I do agree some folks were reading far too much into the adjective "soviet". I also disagree with the notion that the majority of food pantries are church/religion based - I think the churches would like you to think that, and they are certainly loud about their efforts, but having experienced the need for food handouts I'd say in the Chicago area it's debatable whether or not the majority of feed-the-hungry outfits are religious or not. Certainly the two largest - The Greater Chicago Food Depository and America's Second Harvest - are NOT religion based, and neither are the Federal, state, county, and city level efforts. I also notice that no one is apparently paying attention to my statement to that effect, despite the fact I have personal and direct experience with the agencies providing such services.

From what I get, a lot of people marched into this thread with the following agenda:

1) Prove Marina wrong
2) All food pantries/distribution are owned by a religious order
3) ignore anyone who states anything contrary to 1 and 2

[Gil Hamilton]

I'm not trying to dogpile Marina or nitpick that much, I just don't think the occasional bout of large doles are a sign of our Inevitable Decline into Soviet Russia or that a time travelling Marina who apparently was on the Loyalist side of the American Revolution was all that right about history (as if the colonies had stayed loyal we still wouldn't be capitalist or in the same mess).

[Darth Wong]

I'm not trying to dogpile Marina or nitpick that much, I just don't think the occasional bout of large doles are a sign of our Inevitable Decline into Soviet Russia or that a time travelling Marina who apparently was on the Loyalist side of the American Revolution was all that right about history (as if the colonies had stayed loyal we still wouldn't be capitalist or in the same mess).

So "Soviet-style bread line" means "America is becoming the Soviet Union?" I better throw away that Russian-style hat that I have; I might become Russian!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I just don't see that kind of nuance out of the word choice.

"So" makes the latter half of the sentence a consequence of the former half. "But" makes the latter half of the sentence an alternate result. That's how I read it, at least. But, really, that's semantics.

On the topic at hand, there have always been soup kitchens and bread doles. My family even went to one a couple of times during the late 80s after my father was sacked from Westinghouse Electric and we hit a real rough patch. That's a sign of the times, but not necessarily a permanent one.

Which is again off chasing tangents, Gil. I fucking know that. What they don't normally have is lines of hundreds of people waiting in front of them for bread.