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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Ohma wrote:I think his point was something to the effect of "infidelity is bad", and apparently Alyrium talking about biological imperitives which tend to compel humans toward infidelity means that he has no problems whatsoever with it and that he believes it should be considered perfectly fine and normal/desireable by society.

At least I think that's what Illuminatus is all angry about.
He said that "I dont think anything is inherently immoral, as that requires the universe caring."

An idiotic statement. Immorality and it having an inherent basis is not dependent on quasi-religious tests like something in or above or all about the universe shouting "don't do it."

"My argument is that we put up the pretense of accepting infidelity to be immoral, but our actions (as a society and species) say otherwise."

More bullshit. Immoral shit happens all the time, Alyrium Dumbshit would have you believe that unless culture goes out of its way to proscribe immoral actions, than they're not immoral. By this dumbshit logic, the fact that American culture did not care about - rather, it encouraged - the abuse of gays, that it wasn't immoral. Obviously these standards he's using are retard tests.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Ohma wrote:I think his point was something to the effect of "infidelity is bad", and apparently Alyrium talking about biological imperitives which tend to compel humans toward infidelity means that he has no problems whatsoever with it and that he believes it should be considered perfectly fine and normal/desireable by society.

At least I think that's what Illuminatus is all angry about.
Desirable is different from something that compels me to shrug my shoulders and go "meh, it happens"

To say that we as society ought to do something (not engage in infidelity for example) implies that we are capable of it. Empirically, we obviously are not. A person who never engages in infidelity, ever, is on the far end of the bell curve, and trying to say that infidelity is bad is an exercise in societal hypocrisy.
Men who are divorced several times are regarded with suspicion (unless they're stinking rich). Cheating women are treated as sluts, shunned and ostracized in many social circles.
Usually the social circle surrounding the person they cheated on.

The whole system is like a gang of teenagers who masturbate 4 times a day, ragging on the guy that got caught.

Any sanctions against cheating are going to be small and short lived. Brief social ostracism for example, or suspicion on the part of potential mates. You expect this. It makes sense that potential mates would evaluate the risk of choosing an unfaithful partner higher.

The reason that the sanctions cant get too high, is because people are putting up a pretense. Trying to discourage others from engaging in cheating without hurting their own reproductive efforts. Thus, the sanctions are a wrist slap. If you stigmatize cheaters too much you cant cheat.
The law allows the court to give most of the shared property to the betrayed party during divorce proceedings. Cheating husbands are sometimes forced to pay a regular allowance to their spouses.
Varies significantly by locale, and represents not so much a sanction, but variance reduction. It is a response to group-level selective pressures.

The law allows the court to give most of the shared property to the betrayed party during divorce proceedings. Cheating husbands are sometimes forced to pay a regular allowance to their spouses.
Also: varies significantly by locale, and is not so much a sanction as variance reduction for the benefit of the betrayed partner as a response to group-level selective pressures.

Of course you are comparing apples to oranges. A married couple has entered into a legally binding agreement that has a lot of stipulations that if broken can lead to those same consequences, not all of them are moral issues. And marriage/divorce law is highly variable.

I am referring to lack of real sanction for infidelity on its own. Without other strings attached (like written contracts)
Hell, if a betrayed spouse murders her/his partner in a fit of rage, this is seen as excusable, and they can get a lower sentence (murder II rather than murder I) because of that.
Not a sanction against infidelity, but rather an acknowledgment that the killer was not rational at the time.


And finally, in some places cheating husbands are in real, tangible physical danger from their spouse's extended family. Same goes for cheating women.
Fits into an evolutionary model rather well... and I believe I have addressed this. Part of the antagonistic part of antagonistic selection. No one wants their family members fitness decreased... that lowers their inclusive fitness.
I have no idea where you took this statement from.
Personal experience. The empirical fact that we supposedly have all these sanctions against infidelity that do not actually act to reduce it, and the sanctions we do have are not proportionate to the rhetoric we use when talking about unfaithful individuals?
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Post by PeZook »

What is a real social sanction against something, then?

Is an immoral action only considered immoral if society decided to string you up in response? Does this mean lying and dishonesty are moral and dishonest assholes shouldn't be judged just because a lot of people do that and get away with it?
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Desirable is different from something that compels me to shrug my shoulders and go "meh, it happens"
Easy for someone alone to say.
Alyrium Denryle wrote:To say that we as society ought to do something (not engage in infidelity for example) implies that we are capable of it. Empirically, we obviously are not.
This is so fantastically exaggerated and stupid it defies comprehension. So society has no legitimate or sincere mandate to ameliorate poverty? Jesus EVERYTHING society proscribes its obviously incapable of completely eradicating. I can't say "murder should not happen" because Alyrium says its impossible?
Alyrium Denryle wrote:A person who never engages in infidelity, ever, is on the far end of the bell curve, and trying to say that infidelity is bad is an exercise in societal hypocrisy.
That's bullshit. Did you fail statistics? Only around 50% of male spouses cheat on their wives, and even less vice versa? How does that round to 68% of the population (within 1 standard deviation of the norm both ways in a normal distribution) in your pinhead? And that's being charitable, because "far end" more likely should be 2 or 3 both ways.

Furthermore, this is still a bunch of bullshit, because maliciously lying is immoral, and everyone does it at some point. You're clinging to an article of arbitrary dogma (morality cannot contradict evolutionary imperatives = bullshit) inconsistent with human culture (immorality has almost always been conceived as contradicting evolutionary goals in some area).
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Usually the social circle surrounding the person they cheated on.

The whole system is like a gang of teenagers who masturbate 4 times a day, ragging on the guy that got caught.
Pathetic. You backpeddle from "sanction" to "sanction which I don't think really counts" and then you give a schoolyard exaggeration in order to disclaim it. What is the magic number at which a community of individuals gains moral authority against an individual?
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Any sanctions against cheating are going to be small and short lived.
Like people you'd like to date ostracizing you? Like having to pay alimony up the ass? Sell your house? Yeah giving up these major aspects of contemporary livelihood and self-accomplishment is really minor and transient. You're a dumbass.
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Brief social ostracism for example, or suspicion on the part of potential mates. You expect this. It makes sense that potential mates would evaluate the risk of choosing an unfaithful partner higher.
I don't know why you pseudoscientists - coffee table human evolutionary psychologists - think that somehow throwing every other school of ethics in the trash can and crudely afixing biological terminology to human culture, philosophy, and psychology automatically makes for scientific rigor. Hint - analogies don't automatically bring some speculation into the realm of science.
Alyrium Denryle wrote:The reason that the sanctions cant get too high, is because people are putting up a pretense. Trying to discourage others from engaging in cheating without hurting their own reproductive efforts. Thus, the sanctions are a wrist slap. If you stigmatize cheaters too much you cant cheat.
No, its because we live in a common law regime where the limited state's mandate to regulate sexuality is largely limited - and still weak - to issues of public safety and assault. If you had a walnut-sized brain, you'd know that polities all over the fucking place really do legislate and enforce prohibitions on illicit sexual conduct.

Even so, this appeal to legalistic impotence as a way of dispelling ethical arguments is completely retarded and lacking in rigor.
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Varies significantly by locale, and represents not so much a sanction, but variance reduction. It is a response to group-level selective pressures.
"Waaah! This sanction doesn't REALLY count as a sanction!!!!"
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Also: varies significantly by locale, and is not so much a sanction as variance reduction for the benefit of the betrayed partner as a response to group-level selective pressures.
"Waaah! This sanction doesn't REALLY count as a sanction!!!!"
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Of course you are comparing apples to oranges. A married couple has entered into a legally binding agreement that has a lot of stipulations that if broken can lead to those same consequences, not all of them are moral issues. And marriage/divorce law is highly variable.
Alyrium Denryle wrote:I am referring to lack of real sanction for infidelity on its own. Without other strings attached (like written contracts)
Because we don't have a totalitarian state that considers its mandate to extend to every sphere of personal and public morality, its not morality? No morality exists where the state sanction does not? :roll:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Not a sanction against infidelity, but rather an acknowledgment that the killer was not rational at the time.
Because society recognizes that infidelity is an immoral act and can reasonably lead to violent irrationality. Flipping out and killing people without a moral provocation gets you institutionalized for criminal insanity. There is an obvious distinction everyone understands, and you want to ignore to save your threadbare "argument."
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Fits into an evolutionary model rather well... and I believe I have addressed this. Part of the antagonistic part of antagonistic selection. No one wants their family members fitness decreased... that lowers their inclusive fitness.
Don't you ever get tired of waving the "look how smart I am and how well I can preach about biology" shirt?
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Personal experience. The empirical fact that we supposedly have all these sanctions against infidelity that do not actually act to reduce it, and the sanctions we do have are not proportionate to the rhetoric we use when talking about unfaithful individuals?
I love how you equate personal experience with empirical fact. :lol:
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

PeZook wrote:What is a real social sanction against something, then?

Is an immoral action only considered immoral if society decided to string you up in response? Does this mean lying and dishonesty are moral and dishonest assholes shouldn't be judged just because a lot of people do that and get away with it?
Whatever Alyrium decides is a real sanction and provides him an excuse to tell us how smart and scientific he is.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Ok. I realize that I have gotten ahead of myself, and possibly over my head and spoke without thinking things through fully. So allow me to clarify and concede.

Ok. Infidelity is a function of antagonistic selection. Where one (or with cheating, 2) parties increase their fitness at the expense of another. In the case of cheating, individuals weigh the risk of cheating against the benefit. We clear here? Okay. It is the the best interests of the individual to cheat as needed. It is also in their best interests to prevent their partner from doing so.

Morality is not some metaphysical property of an action. That is what I meant when I said that nothing can be inherently immoral. Even infanticide can be moral under the right conditions.

What morality is, is the manifestation of forces like this. It is a sociobiological construction. Actions are not immoral because they are somehow intrinsically evil, but because there are fitness consequences for action that are adaptive or maladaptive at the group level, but might have different fitness consequences at the individual level. Because of the way ethics are transmitted, individuals (and subgroups) can also influence the group to consider actions that are maladaptive for some individuals, but not others, immoral. Depending on power-differentials between groups, how strongly sanctioned certain actions in the later category are is maleable.

It is here the ethics of infidelity get... hypocritical. No one wants to be cheated on. But most people will cheat if the risk is low and the benefit high. Our entire reproductive biology is built around infidelity and facilitating our own and detecting/foiling it on the part of our mates, and our social systems for dealing with it reflect this.

THat is what I am getting at, but I did it in such a horribly thought out, ham-fisted way that my position became untenable, and I am forced to concede the argument.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Just correcting factual issues
That's bullshit. Did you fail statistics? Only around 50% of male spouses cheat on their wives, and even less vice versa? How does that round to 68% of the population (within 1 standard deviation of the norm both ways in a normal distribution) in your pinhead? And that's being charitable, because "far end" more likely should be 2 or 3 both ways.

You have a source for those stats? Because I dont need to point out the obvious failures of self-reports.

Also: cheating on wives =/ cheating ever. You are comparing two different numbers
immorality has almost always been conceived as contradicting evolutionary goals in some area
Only because of a shitty understanding of evolution. Evolution works at multiple levels. FOr example, there is natural selection taking place in your individual cells. Right now, mutations that are beneficial for the short term fitness of a few of your cells are cropping up, that at the level of the organism we call cancer. Your body has systems in place, that it has evolved as a group-entity of cells to police out these mutations.

By the same token, societies have mechanisms by which it polices out behaviors that are beneficial to the individual, but maladaptive to the group. Natural selection is functioning in all of these systems.
I love how you equate personal experience with empirical fact. Laughing
Those were two separate statements.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Just correcting factual issues
That's bullshit. Did you fail statistics? Only around 50% of male spouses cheat on their wives, and even less vice versa? How does that round to 68% of the population (within 1 standard deviation of the norm both ways in a normal distribution) in your pinhead? And that's being charitable, because "far end" more likely should be 2 or 3 both ways.
You have a source for those stats? Because I dont need to point out the obvious failures of self-reports.

Also: cheating on wives =/ cheating ever. You are comparing two different numbers
You have a lot of balls to critique someone on their numbers who cites some numbers in reply to you pulling shit straight out of your ass. In this case, I'm still not letting "far end" qualify because you just said so on your own authority.
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Only because of a shitty understanding of evolution. Evolution works at multiple levels. FOr example, there is natural selection taking place in your individual cells. Right now, mutations that are beneficial for the short term fitness of a few of your cells are cropping up, that at the level of the organism we call cancer. Your body has systems in place, that it has evolved as a group-entity of cells to police out these mutations.

By the same token, societies have mechanisms by which it polices out behaviors that are beneficial to the individual, but maladaptive to the group. Natural selection is functioning in all of these systems.
Wow, that completely logically justified the claim that morality must be compatible with evolutionary drives.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

You have a lot of balls to critique someone on their numbers who cites some numbers in reply to you pulling shit straight out of your ass. In this case, I'm still not letting "far end" qualify because you just said so on your own authority.
hence the concession of the argument proper, because I was wrong.
Wow, that completely logically justified the claim that morality must be compatible with evolutionary drives.
Must be? Maybe not. Probably in the end analysis is? I think so. There is a lot of stuff that we do and think is moral, or immoral, that is not a functional characteristic at all. The catholic prohibition against eating meat on fridays during lent for example. A lot of ethical systems when taken to their logical conclusions yield counter-intuitive results, etc. So, to a large extent it depends on your definitions.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Must be? Maybe not. Probably in the end analysis is? I think so. There is a lot of stuff that we do and think is moral, or immoral, that is not a functional characteristic at all. The catholic prohibition against eating meat on fridays during lent for example. A lot of ethical systems when taken to their logical conclusions yield counter-intuitive results, etc. So, to a large extent it depends on your definitions.
If you're proposing something, you can assume something as a given for the purposes of an argument. If you are asserting something, you can't just presume your basic premise without even the pretense of its justification.
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Post by PeZook »

So...societies regulate some behaviors of its individual members in a way that is beneficial to the society as a whole. But, since those who create and enforce these values are individuals, and seek to maximize their fitness, moral values beneficial to society as a whole (fidelity, truthfullness, will to sacrifice oneself for the group) are sometimes not obeyed by those powerful enough to ignore them.

Okay, you managed to state the obvious here. I mean, I actually agree that morality is very arbitrary, but that doesn't make the concept itself invalid. Just because individuals will try to fuck other members of society over doesn't mean they should, since such actions do not benefit the group in the long term. Hence why men and women should try to stay faithful to their partners, since cheating hurts your SO, leads to resentment, anger and thus undermines social bonds.

Furthermore, it's entire possible reproductive success depends much more on the mother/father staying with his/her children and making sure they get a decent upbringing and education, rather than spawning as many brats as possible.

Running contrary to biological instinct doesn't invalidate moral systems, either, if the mandated action is beneficial to the group as a whole.
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Post by Stark »

Alyrium Denryle wrote: You have been reading my posts. This makes me so happy! :D
It absolutely terrifies me that you're so self-obsessed this is your response to someone making such a simple statement. Next time someone multiplies five by nine I want Kuroneko to show up and say WELL DONE STUDENTS. :lol:
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So...societies regulate some behaviors of its individual members in a way that is beneficial to the society as a whole. But, since those who create and enforce these values are individuals, and seek to maximize their fitness, moral values beneficial to society as a whole (fidelity, truthfullness, will to sacrifice oneself for the group) are sometimes not obeyed by those powerful enough to ignore them.
Not just those powerful enough to ignore them. Everyone has the very real potential to ignore this particular rule. Actually infidelity, or at least infidelity leading to offspring is more common among the least powerful. False paternity in poor areas is 40% for example, averaged to 10% over the population.

Also, it is not so much individuals that create the rules. You can think of groups (societies, cultures, tribes.. whatever size scale you want to talk about) as being units upon which selection acts. They compete with other groups in the same size scale for resources, living space, sometimes people. Now these groups are made of individuals (or sub-groups at larger size scales but lets keep things simple).

The group-level competitiveness depends on how individuals act in relation to eachother. To use a thought experiment. Say you have an island with a bunch of groups on it. The groups that cooperate better will steam-roll the ones that dont. However, A person within a cooperative group that does not cooperate (thus gaining the benefit of the cooperation without expending his own energy to maintain it) will outcompete the cooperators, destroying the cooperative group from within over evolutionary time.

So, cooperative groups by definition succeed at developing systems to either force non-cooperators to conform, or make them go away. This is what ethics are, and what sanctions do. They force conformity or make the offenders leave (one way or the other. A third option is of course harnessing the uncooperative individual to serve a group benefit. See: the difference between communism, and a regulated capitalistic mixed economy. In the one the group tries to crush individual fitness and suborn it to group-fitness. In the other, the system itself uses the individual quest for fitness for group-benefit. ) Groups that do better at this will out compete groups that do poorly.

What most morality is, is this group-level stuff it regulates behavior that has group-level consequences. Like murder.

But, because morality is transmitted culturally, it can also regulate behavior that does not have group-level fitness consequences. WHich leads to cases where an action is looked down upon by society, even though everyone does it. I will use masturbation as a more neutral example.

When you masturbate, the frequency at which you do so optimizes the ratios of the different types of sperm you have for different kinds of sperm competition with other males. It is in the best interests of males to keep other males from masturbating, while continuing to masturbate themselves. So, people who masturbate are teased, etc. To shame them into not jerking off. It doesnt work... but it is an attempt to reduce your fitness while still maximizing your own.

Infidelity is similar. It by itself does not have strong group-level consequences(they are there, but probably not too bad). Some of the evolved countermeasures however do negative impact the society very badly. Jealousy, posessiveness, abuse, all of these are counter measures to infidelty that you see in humans as well as birds. And they have the same root cause. But I digress.

Infidelity in this analysis is like jerking off. It is viewed as undesirable, sanctioned agains but the risk does not outweigh the reward often enough to keep it from occurring at high frequency. And this is because of the trade off that is made in the attempt to suppress the reproductive fitness of others, while maintaining the ability to use the same methods to enhance their own. When this happens across a population, you end up with a rule that might as well not be there.

THis is not to say that everyone has or will cheat at some point. The decision to cheat is, at the level of ultimate causation and evolutionary cost-benefit analysis going on in your subconscious (what you are thinking is "Oh she is really hot... but I love my wife..." your brain is putting that into a Pro vs Con system) If someone has a really good mate they cant risk losing, they wont cheat. For example. If they find that individual early they may not ever cheat because prior to that they didnt have the opportunity, and now have no reason to do so. This is part of the area where I didnt think things through completely in prior posts.
Just because individuals will try to fuck other members of society over doesn't mean they should
Whenever you ask the question "what should someone do" you have to ask the question "where do we as a society get that ideal and what purpose does it serve?" In the end, I am not trying to say what is or is not desirable. I want to answer that fundamental question. Evolutionary theory cannot prescribe morality. But, I think it can explain it, and answer some questions about why some of our moral rules have more teeth than others.

Furthermore, it's entire possible reproductive success depends much more on the mother/father staying with his/her children and making sure they get a decent upbringing and education, rather than spawning as many brats as possible.
Basic biology time

Females do indeed stay with and invest heavily in a few offspring. When they cheat, they cheat to produce better offspring, not more. To either provide them with better genes, or better provisions. They will play on the strengths of one male and make up for his deficiencies with another. For example, if she has one very very good social partner who is sub-optimal genetically, she might go shopping around for a better pack O sperm. And her reproductive biology is actually built around making sure she doesnt get caught, and to bias the sperm competition in favor of the genetic mate she prefers...

Males on the other hand cheat to have more, resource investment free offspring. They stick with one (or a few) mates and raise the kids (that might not be theirs hehe) and cheat in order to produce offspring they dont necessarily have to provision as much. In other words, they are trying to receive the benefits of focusing their attention on one mate's kids, while not paying the opportunity cost of not being able to father children with other females.

Also bear in mind that no one but biologists sit around and think about trying to maximize their fitness. There are proximate mechanisms that the evolutionary ones run beneath.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Stark wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote: You have been reading my posts. This makes me so happy! :D
It absolutely terrifies me that you're so self-obsessed this is your response to someone making such a simple statement. Next time someone multiplies five by nine I want Kuroneko to show up and say WELL DONE STUDENTS. :lol:
I am going to assume you are being silly. But in case you are not...I find it funny that you are such a misanthrope that you discount the idea that a nerd on a SW vs ST message-board could have just been being silly, and instead jump to the the conclusion that he is self-obsessed, all to reinforce your own person-hating delusions.
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Post by Kanastrous »

I don't see any reason why a nerd on an SW vs ST message board can't be pleased, when he feels that someone has been reading what he's been posting.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
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Alyrium Denryle
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Kanastrous wrote:I don't see any reason why a nerd on an SW vs ST message board can't be pleased, when he feels that someone has been reading what he's been posting.
Yes, but I do enjoy intentional over-the-topness

Makes my inner supervillain happy

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Post by Kanastrous »

*shrug* I believe that certain classes of felon should be chopped up for spare parts. Your ghoulishness is unlikely to shock me.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
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Post by Darth Wong »

*sigh*

Is Alyrium ass-raping Occam's Razor again with yet another long-winded explanation of how every single social mating behaviour in human culture must have an evolutionary advantage? Sort of like the way he insists that homosexuals are an evolutionary necessity, even though they have never amounted to more than tiny percentage of the population and are therefore easily dismissed as a maladaptive trait?
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Post by SylasGaunt »

Gerald Tarrant wrote:
If that's the saga of the Ships of Earth, it gets worse. It's pretty much the story of the first half of the Book of Mormon. Some Sci-fi elements grafted on, some religious elements hidden, but the basic story is the same.
This sounds vaguely familiar. :lol:

Seriously, I'd heard Card had pretty much shot his bolt with Ender's Game but I had no idea he was such a whackaloon.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Darth Wong wrote:*sigh*

Is Alyrium ass-raping Occam's Razor again with yet another long-winded explanation of how every single social mating behaviour in human culture must have an evolutionary advantage? Sort of like the way he insists that homosexuals are an evolutionary necessity, even though they have never amounted to more than tiny percentage of the population and are therefore easily dismissed as a maladaptive trait?
More or less yes. For all that I think the poor boy is desperately cute and rather intelligence, genetic reductionism is as irritating as hell. Gods above, I know my own condition is a maladaptive, defective trait, and I'm not afraid of loudly admitting that--why the hell would I want to defend it? That doesn't mean, however, that I deserve any less rights because of it, or that I'm less capable of contributing to broader society as a whole. When I used to spend a bunch of time ranting about genetic "reductionists" on this board years ago and people accused me of dismissing the validity of genetics as a cause for any sort of human behaviour I was actually referring to individuals like Aly who seem determined to attribute everything from using cotton for pants to lava lamps and Disco due to your genes trying to reproduce themselves.
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Post by Stark »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I am going to assume you are being silly. But in case you are not...I find it funny that you are such a misanthrope that you discount the idea that a nerd on a SW vs ST message-board could have just been being silly, and instead jump to the the conclusion that he is self-obsessed, all to reinforce your own person-hating delusions.
I just had to quote this to see it in print again. The hypocrisy is fantastic.
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Post by Superman »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Gods above, I know my own condition is a maladaptive, defective trait, and I'm not afraid of loudly admitting that--why the hell would I want to defend it? That doesn't mean, however, that I deserve any less rights because of it, or that I'm less capable of contributing to broader society as a whole.
The difference here is that you're being honest. You know that your condition doesn't detract from you as a person. I think I stopped reading Alyrium's posts after he tried to explain that baby killer from Turlock, CA. (the story about the police helicopter making an emergency landing) by means of "biological proximate mechanisms," when it was pretty obvious the guy was just some meth (or crack, as Dutchess wisely pointed out) smoking redneck who snapped. Trying to be that much of an authority on something in a situation like that just sounded ridiculous.

At any rate, I read Orson Scott Card's book "The Lost Boys" a few years ago. I don't know how I got through it; the book was a grade A piece of shit. Why anyone is even reading his crap is beyond me. I find it hilarious that he thinks his opinion even matters.
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Post by Elfdart »

Of course it matters. Much of right-wing politics is based on bad novels (don't get me started on Ayn Rand), idiotic TV shows ("Torture works on 24!")and movies that are shitty beyond belief (Rambo, The Green Berets, Red Dawn, Forrest Gump).
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Superman wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Gods above, I know my own condition is a maladaptive, defective trait, and I'm not afraid of loudly admitting that--why the hell would I want to defend it? That doesn't mean, however, that I deserve any less rights because of it, or that I'm less capable of contributing to broader society as a whole.
The difference here is that you're being honest. You know that your condition doesn't detract from you as a person. I think I stopped reading Alyrium's posts after he tried to explain that baby killer from Turlock, CA. (the story about the police helicopter making an emergency landing) by means of "biological proximate mechanisms," when it was pretty obvious the guy was just some meth (or crack, as Dutchess wisely pointed out) smoking redneck who snapped. Trying to be that much of an authority on something in a situation like that just sounded ridiculous.

At any rate, I read Orson Scott Card's book "The Lost Boys" a few years ago. I don't know how I got through it; the book was a grade A piece of shit. Why anyone is even reading his crap is beyond me. I find it hilarious that he thinks his opinion even matters.

Well, we do know that male homosexual behaviour increases in areas which are very densely populated, like ancient Greece or the Zululand, but that doesn't necessarily imply genetic homosexuality. One of my main complaints with a strict genetic view of homosexuality is that it really doesn't explain societies like those where homosexual contact was normal and accepted and practiced on a wide scale. Even if it's a response to population pressures, it would imply that a genetic tendency toward bisexuality is extremely common in the male populace.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Darth Wong wrote:*sigh*

Is Alyrium ass-raping Occam's Razor again with yet another long-winded explanation of how every single social mating behaviour in human culture must have an evolutionary advantage? Sort of like the way he insists that homosexuals are an evolutionary necessity, even though they have never amounted to more than tiny percentage of the population and are therefore easily dismissed as a maladaptive trait?
He clings to a religious-esque conception of science. Its not enough for evolutionary biology to make accurate, testable hypotheses within the realm of its competency and verifiability; no, it must be a comprehensive explanation for life on the existential level. It cannot leave any room for gaps or outside context.
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