Responses to the 700 Billion Blank Check.

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Darth Wong
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Post by Darth Wong »

Uraniun235 wrote:There's a massive ingrained belief in America that "buy a house" is - or was - one of the surest investments there is, and that if you can afford it, you should do it. A lot of people were led to believe they could afford it, when in fact they couldn't.
There's also a massive ingrained cultural belief in America that if you don't own a house, then you are a pathetic loser. That, perhaps more than anything, contributes to this mindset. That's why people who know they can't really afford a house will try to buy one anyway.

It doesn't help that the government explicitly took actions designed to "encourage home ownership". This was all encouraged from the very top: trickle-down theory doesn't work for wealth, but it sure works for financial irresponsibility.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

I forgot about the "loser" part. I still cringe when I think back to January and remember the co-worker who was complaining because her boyfriend didn't want to buy a house and she said he should "just man up and do it."
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Post by Lusankya »

Zac Naloen wrote: It may be convenient in the blame game to try and blame the public, but it's not really fair when they don't actually have any real say in the process. All they can do is say "Can I?"
1) Asking for money is an active thing. They're perfectly capable of NOT asking for their money.

2) Anyone who decides to buy something worth several hundred thosand dollars without reading the fine print or even taking ten minutes to work out the sums themselves should shoulder some of the blame, even if they are told otherwise.

3) Nobody's saying the people are solely responsible. They did, however contribute to the mess.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Lusankya wrote:Nobody's saying the people are solely responsible. They did, however contribute to the mess.
That's like saying that if the police stop doing their job, then the inevitable crime wave is due to "the people" rather than the police not doing their jobs. Yes, technically it's individuals who commit crimes. But in a society rather than a libertopian fantasy, it is the job of social institutions to protect people from each other and, in many cases, themselves. Those social institutions failed to do this, largely because of several decades of incessant right-wing political gains in America.

"The people" are responsible in the sense that they supported this political sea change, not because some of their members were financially irresponsible. The average person is barely better than an animal; it is the responsibility of more intelligent people to protect him from himself. The sin of the commoner was not to act like a typical commoner, but to become so full of bloated arrogance that he believed he was an island, and did not need to be governed at all.
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Post by White Haven »

Zac Naloen wrote:It may be convenient in the blame game to try and blame the public, but it's not really fair when they don't actually have any real say in the process. All they can do is say "Can I?"
What? What!? Yes, banks were being predatory, but WHAT? Since when are perfectly sentient human beings reduced to mindless Jello just because a bank says 'Here, we'll loan you hundreds of thousands of dollars, with that ham and cheese sandwich in your hand as collateral?' They're not AS culpable s the banks here, malice being a greater problem than stupidity, but it takes TWO to tango, and as I said earlier, dishonesty and stupidity (or blind faith, which amounts to the same thing) are required together to pull this sort of a stunt off.
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Post by Darth Wong »

White Haven wrote:
Zac Naloen wrote:It may be convenient in the blame game to try and blame the public, but it's not really fair when they don't actually have any real say in the process. All they can do is say "Can I?"
What? What!? Yes, banks were being predatory, but WHAT? Since when are perfectly sentient human beings reduced to mindless Jello just because a bank says 'Here, we'll loan you hundreds of thousands of dollars, with that ham and cheese sandwich in your hand as collateral?' They're not AS culpable s the banks here, malice being a greater problem than stupidity, but it takes TWO to tango, and as I said earlier, dishonesty and stupidity (or blind faith, which amounts to the same thing) are required together to pull this sort of a stunt off.
If you already have shitty credit and you still get to live in a house you can't possibly afford, it's not as stupid a decision as it may look. If the house price skyrockets so that you can sell it and pay off the loan, you're laughing. If it doesn't and you end up getting foreclosed, so what? Your credit rating is already shit anyway, so it won't make any difference.

Both bank executives and home buyers were in many cases making decisions that made rational sense in their fucked-up regulatory environment. The bad-credit home buyers had nothing to lose but their credit rating which was already shit anyway, and the bank executives figured on getting out before the shit hit the fan.
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Post by Zac Naloen »

Wongs already said what I needed to say,

It's probably worth noting. The members of the public who are financially responsible aren't the ones suffering.

This Subprime mortgage shit was specifically aimed at idiots who don't know better and it was done on purpose.

The public were taken advantage of by the ones who are supposed to be looking after their interests.

The entire situation makes my head hurt the more I think about it.

What? What!? Yes, banks were being predatory, but WHAT? Since when are perfectly sentient human beings reduced to mindless Jello just because a bank says 'Here, we'll loan you hundreds of thousands of dollars, with that ham and cheese sandwich in your hand as collateral?' They're not AS culpable s the banks here, malice being a greater problem than stupidity, but it takes TWO to tango, and as I said earlier, dishonesty and stupidity (or blind faith, which amounts to the same thing) are required together to pull this sort of a stunt off.
At what point did the banks stop being the organisation that knows about finance so you don't have to?

Seems to me the change was extremely quick, too quick for the mostly uneducated in the subject public to catch up.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Oh, you're wrong. That mentality is alive and more prevalent than ever over the pond too.
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Post by aerius »

Uraniun235 wrote:Let's not forget the crucial element - the assumption that housing prices would keep going up forever. I'm willing to bet a substantial proportion of people who bought into the scam completely believed it. It's not like a lot of people were thinking "fuck the future it's time to party now", they believed this was a viable financial plan.
People still believe it, hell, almost all my co-workers are convinced that housing prices will turn around any day now and start growing at 10% a year. I'd say at least 98% of the people I know are absolutely convinced that the stock markets and housing prices will always go up, even people who are in the business and should know better. I wonder if they'll still believe it when I buy their foreclosed home for 60 cents on the dollar.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Holy shit! Oil is doing a moonshot now. $115.61.

No one's going to short sell that away.
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Post by J »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Holy shit! Oil is doing a moonshot now. $115.61.
Yup. The investors "got it" and realized that the equities market is a complete fraud. They've decided they're not going to play the game anymore and yanked their money out to play elsewhere, like commodities. Oops. Unintended, but completely foreseeable consequences are a bitch.

BTW, oil hit lock limit up, bringing a temporary halt to trading. Can't say I've ever seen that before in all the time I've traded oil.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

It's up well over $10 in a day, and we're nowhere near the end yet. If this keeps up, we'll be breaking all time records again by Friday.
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Post by Zac Naloen »

Are you posting in the wrong thread Valdemer? :?

Your last two posts threw me until I realised you were talking about the ban on short selling.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

The economy and commodities are linked. The traders are noticing now that doubts exist over the efficacy of this so called plan to bail out those who should know better. Carte blanche for bankers is not an option for anyone with any modicum of sense.

A disruption to investments in traditional financial instruments can mean only one thing: commodities boom.

NYMEX WTI: $121.61.

The largest single day rise in oil price in history.
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Post by Themightytom »

Damn I guess I should have invested in oil, who knew? I should go take out a giant loan and by tons of shares. I can probably talk my sister into using her house as collatoral...

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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

We've just hit a second trade limit. Reached over $128.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

I guess the writing's on the wall. I just called Dave and told him to 'buy gold, copper, silver, uranium, and oil. NOW!!!'
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Post by SirNitram »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The economy and commodities are linked. The traders are noticing now that doubts exist over the efficacy of this so called plan to bail out those who should know better. Carte blanche for bankers is not an option for anyone with any modicum of sense.

A disruption to investments in traditional financial instruments can mean only one thing: commodities boom.

NYMEX WTI: $121.61.

The largest single day rise in oil price in history.
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Post by aerius »

Themightytom wrote:Damn I guess I should have invested in oil, who knew?
I knew it was going to cause a commodities ramp, but I didn't think it would go completely batshit insane in a single day. I figured today would be an indecisive day as traders figured things out, and then the big moves would come a couple days after that. Instead of being early on my predictions as I usually am, I'm way late this time. Things are moving at scary speeds now.
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Post by Metatwaddle »

Question from the uninitiated: how long is trading suspended after a limit is reached? I assumed it was an entire day, but I guess it's not.

Also, what's the best source on this stuff? I was using bloomberg.com, but it must not be current because it has oil at $120.00, not $128.
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Post by aerius »

Metatwaddle wrote:Question from the uninitiated: how long is trading suspended after a limit is reached? I assumed it was an entire day, but I guess it's not.
http://www.nymex.com/CL_spec.aspx

For oil, trading stops for 5 minutes every time the limit is reached. The limit gets reset and if it's hit again there's another 5 minute halt, and this just keeps repeating. There's no daily limit on price moves.
Also, what's the best source on this stuff? I was using bloomberg.com, but it must not be current because it has oil at $120.00, not $128.
$128 was the near the intraday high, it broke $130 for a few minutes before dropping back down to $120. The NYMEX site is more up to date than Bloomberg, it's only a 15 minute delay while Bloomberg is often more than an hour out of date.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

The October contracts were closing today too, so a lot of people were going to get called on this. The new contract may not go up quite so fast, but if it does, then this shows the markets are starting to panic big. One does not see oil go up near $30 in a single day without worrying over what it means.

If everyone is finally getting the message that the Big Bad Bailout is already doomed, then what can be done? Congress could pass it, yet it likely would not alter anything except fuck Americans over with the single biggest "fuck you" since the War of Independence.

EDIT: LOL! Max Keiser, you so kwazy. Ignore the 9/11 (bleh, 11/9, people) comments. The rest is disturbing.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Found on Reddit: The Seminal rips the shit out of the Trillion Bailout

$1 Trillion for Wall Street - $0 for Health Care
by Jason Rosenbaum :: Filed Under U.S. Domestic Issues :: September 21st, 2008 @ 2:35 pm EST
Buzz up!

As Congress debates whether to hand over a $700,000,000,000 check to the Bush administration with no strings attached, conservatives are already arguing that none of that money should end up in the hand of regular people:
On Sunday Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson resisted suggestions that the program be changed to include further relief for homeowners facing mortgage foreclosures.

Mr. Paulson said Sunday that because financial markets remain under severe stress there is an urgent need for Congress to act quickly without adding other measures that could slow down passage. “We need this to be clean and to be quick,” Mr. Paulson said in an interview on ABC’s “This Week.”

Mr. Paulson said he was concerned that debate over adding all of those proposals would slow the economy down, delaying the rescue effort that is so urgently needed to get financial markets moving again.

“The biggest help we can give the American people right now is to stabilize the financial system,” Mr. Paulson said.
Shorter Paulson: Giving all the money to the people who caused this crisis is the best way for the masses to help themselves. Ain’t trickle-down economics grand?

Conservatives created this crisis with a policy of deregulation - which allowed companies to become “too big to fail” - combined with a love for public/private partnerships like Fannie Mae, in which government acts as the implicit firewall in the markets, ready to step in and “bail out” when things inevitably go wrong.

And when the crisis inevitably comes, conservatives argue all the money needs to go back into the hands that created the crisis because the bailout needs to be “clean and quick.” And of course, a “long” discussion on meaningful regulation, corporate accountability, and wise use of taxpayer money would only make things worse.

We see this modus operandii over and over again from the right wing. And we’ll see it happen with health care in 2009.

With the next President inheriting staggering debt from President Bush, conservatives will suddenly remember their fiscal mantra and decry any “extra” spending. If they’re particularly brazen, you’ll see them calling for a set of laws that make it easier for private health care corporations to make more money - giving more wealth to the very powers that caused our current health care crisis.

Senator John McCain said it best (thanks, Todd):
Here’s what McCain has to say about the wonders of market-based health reform:
Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation.
So McCain, who now poses as the scourge of Wall Street, was praising financial deregulation like 10 seconds ago — and promising that if we marketize health care, it will perform as well as the financial industry!
Conservatives will abolish geographic restrictions on health care purchasing, allowing companies to set up shop in states with the most favorable regulations, get rid of employer-based health insurance and tax your health care benefits, and then offer you a piddling tax credit to get through it all. It all adds up to more money in the hands of insurance companies and less in the hands of working people - socialism for the rich spurred on by a “crisis.” It’s the shock doctrine.

Don’t let them get away with it.

It’s extremely telling that there is a bottomless pit of money when that money is going to corporate backers of the conservative movement, but when that money just might find its way into the hands of hard working Americans, suddenly the well is dry. (Paulson even had the nerve to suggest stripping Wall Street CEOs of their multi-million dollar severance packages was enough to doom a bailout bill.)

Let’s face facts. Conservatives don’t want to “solve the crisis” (any crisis) or help make America stronger. They simply want to use a crisis (that they create) to give more money to themselves. This isn’t about helping the country, this isn’t about averting a depression, this is about stealing as much money as they can and getting away with it. Conservatives use times of crisis to fundamentally undermine our democracy. And when talk turns to giving money to the people - be it in the form of economic stimulus, health care, energy, or poverty reduction - conservatives suddenly get that old time fiscal conservative religion.

The sooner progressives, our elected leaders, and the media realize conservatives are trying to destroy our country, not save it, the better.

(also posted at MyDD and the NOW! blog)
Something definitely tells me the whole internet left of DailyRacist and WingNutDaily are in a towering rage over this.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Unverified source but it seems plausible so whatever:
I worked at [Wall Street firm you've heard of], but now I handle financial services for [a Congressman], and I was on the conference call that Paulson, Bernanke and the House Democratic Leadership held for all the members yesterday afternoon. It's supposed to be members only, but there's no way to enforce that if it's a conference call, and you may have already heard from other staff who were listening in.

Anyway, I wanted to let you know that, behind closed doors, Paulson describes the plan differently. He explicitly says that it will buy assets at above market prices (although he still claims that they are undervalued) because the holders won't sell at market prices. Anna Eshoo pressed him on how the government can compel the holders to sell, and he basically dodged the question. I think that's because he didn't want to admit that the government would just keep offering more and more.

I don't think that our leadership has been very good during this negotiation (or really, during any showdowns with this administration) at forcing the administration to own their position. If Paulson wants this plan, then he needs to sell it to the public, and if he sells a different plan to the public (the nonsense buying-at-market-price plan) then we should pass that. I'd rather see the government act as a market maker for the assets to get them transferred over to private equity firms and sovereign wealth funds and other willing holders. And if we need to recapitalize these companies, it seems like the cheapest way for the taxpayer is to go in and buy up the distressed debt and then convert that to equity.

...

Losses on the paper acquired are guaranteed. This is not a bug but a feature. The whole point of this exercise is an equity infusion to banks. The failure to be honest about it upfront will lead to a taxpayer backlash (or will lead to the production of phony financial statements for the rescue entity, which will lead to revolt by our friendly foreign funding sources).

Taxpayers have no upside participation.

There is no regulatory reform as part of the package. This would seem to be a minimum requirement for a donation of this magnitude.

There is no admission that deleveraging is inevitable. This plan seems to be a desperate effort to keep bad debt from being written down. Yet the sorry fact is that a lot of these assets simply will not be repaid.

There appears to be no intention to do triage. The financial services industry, on the back of an explosive growth in debt, has reached an unsustainable size. The industry will have to shrink. Yet the Administration does not address this issue; indeed, it appears it intends to forestall the inevitable. Regulators need to decide who will make it, who won't, and figure out what to do with damaged institutions. Instead, the reaction is ad hoc. The stunner was the contemplation of a possible merger between Morgan Stanley and Wachovia. As far as I can tell, the only thing the two firms had in common was coming into crisis on roughly the same timetable. For all I know, their IT systems are not compatible (many an otherwise promising bank merger has been scuttled over IT integration issues).
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

is it just me or is the current administration trying to see if they can create the right enviornment for a marxist/leninist revolt in the US?
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