What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

Post by Ender »

Darth Wong wrote:
ray245 wrote:
Kodiak wrote:Don't forget their influence on White Women. They can't be trusted with the white women :roll:
Let's see how they are going to convince the general public with that that line of thought, given that Obama's mother IS a white woman.
You don't know anything about how white racists think, do you? It's about racial "purity" for them; there is "pure white" and then there is everything else.
The funny thing there is that if you look at any pictures, Obama really, really takes after his mom's side of the family.

Here is a shot of young (then) Barry with his grandfather. Compare that with him now - the short curly hair, pointed chin, big ears, the grey that starts at the temple... The guy really favors the maternal side.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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ray245 wrote:Is there anyone in the US, who is from a mixed descent, and is considered to be a 'white' as opposed to a black or Asian?
If the non-white ancestor is a grandparent or great-grandparent and the rest of the family are white, and the person in question has predominantly Caucasian features, they will largely be considered and treated as white. Also, Native American ancestry and to a lesser extent other Asian ancestry is more likely to be "overlooked" in such a manner. In part, this is because certain features common in Asia, such as straight dark hair and epicanthal folds do occur in Caucasian populations which can make it easier to "pass as white". For example, epicanthal folds do occur among Celtic peoples so such a person might claim to be part Irish in order to explain such a feature, while perhaps claiming a Greek ancestor to explain having dark hair and (for a Caucasian) dark skin as well.

As an example, actor Dean Cain, who is 1/4 Japanese, could probably call himself "white" and be accepted as such and in an earlier era might well have done so.

Appearance has a great deal to do with how a person is treated in the US (hence my comment about Obama's appearance - he has clearly identifiable features that come from Africa). Estimates have been made that up to 1/3 of "white" or Caucasian people in the US have some black ancestry and while most estimates are not quite that high there is no question that some people did cross the racial dividing lines in the past. However, the sudden revelation that a white person has relatively recent African ancestry these days does not instantly invalidate their "whiteness". There was a time not so long ago when that was not the case, at least in some areas. The "one drop rule" meant ANY African ancestry meant a person was legally black in some parts of the US and subject to all the problems of such status, such as not being permitted to use motels, "whites only" public facilities, and so forth. That's one reason why race is a such a volatile subject in the US. Until 1964 whether or not you were black might well determine if you could find a public toilet or be forced to piss in your pants in many parts of the US. If you look at the newsreel of Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I Have a Dream Speech" take a good look at the faces in the crowd - the white people had access to plenty of public toilets in the museums and other public facilities in the area, the black people did not and a lot of the cute colored kids really did wind up pissing their pants by the end of the day because they did not have access to the perfectly usable toilets in the vicinity, because in 1963 Washington D.C. was a segregated city.

Depending on the region of the country, facilities may or may not have been segregated, and where segregated, may have been so for those who were black or might have have included all groups who were not Caucasian. The marriage of Barack Obama's parents in Hawaii in the early 1960's was controversial - in Virginia it would have been illegal and his father at real risk of being hung from a tree branch by a lynch mob. (Prohibition of interracial marriage was not overturned across all parts of the US by the Supreme Court until 1967, when Mr. Obama was 6 years old.)

So, you see, there have been massive changes in the US society in the past 50 years. The year Mr. Obama was born he would not have been permitted to set foot in the White House except as a servant, through the back entrance. On January 20 he will walk in the front door and sit down it the Oval Office and take command. Meanwhile, there are still a LOT of people alive in the US who remember a very different society, some of whom prefer that old society. The latter will never see him as anything other than a black man regardless of how white his mother was.

Prior to about 1970 anyone who chose to pass as white would have vehemently denied all other ancestry. As this change has occurred during about one human generation, old customs for determining race - which in some circumstances could have been a matter of life or death - have not yet faded or become unimportant. I expect that one day they will, and being of mixed race will be about as important as, say, being of both German and French descent - interesting genealogy, perhaps affecting family customs and traditions, but not something particularly important in the "real world". It hasn't happened yet, though.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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The funny thing is, my Mom as an Abacus teacher, have two students whose father is an Indian, raised by his adopted Chinese mother.

And other parents and my mother thought that his father is a Chinese with dark skin colour, including myself. We are all surprised to discover he is an Indian. Same thing with my mother's students, even though they are from a mixed descent, between a Chinese and an Indian, we thought of them as Chinese as compared to Indian, even though their complexion is dark.

Perhaps it is the way which they carry themselves, or the fact that there are Chinese who have a rather dark complexion.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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Yes, well, us intelligent types realize that there are no hard, sharp divisions between the races. Just as some pale-skinned, straight-haired folks of not-completely-Caucasian background have passed as white, some white folks have occasionally passed themselves off as a member of some other group either due to chance resemblance or sometimes a little help.

That is, of course, why rabid racists find someone like Mr. Obama so horrifying - he embodies the fact that the human species really is just one species and there is no biological barrier to mixing it up with people of divergent ancestry. It's why they frequently find "miscegenation" and its results more horrifying than "pure" examples of "inferior" races. When such a person of mixed background is, like Mr. Obama, intelligent, articulate, highly educated, and (worst of all in their minds) popular and successful he is a living, breathing refutation of their hate-based principals.

Which is why a lot of us are hoping the Secret Service will be on the ball for the next few years - any PotUS is a target for crazies, but Mr. Obama and his family even more so than usual.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

Post by Broomstick »

Darth Wong wrote:It's funny how hardcore Republicans like your roommate think their critics are stupid, yet the Democrats won by taking the college-educated vote. The GOP's core strength was in the old Confederate states and the Midwest flyover states. They tried to make a prophet out of "Joe the Plumber", for fuck's sake. The party deliberately caters to the stupid and ignorant.
Can I point out that this time around the GOP couldn't even hang onto some of their long-time "core" states, including Midwest flyover Indiana and Old Confederate North Carolina and Virgina? Even the stupid and ignorant weren't swayed by them this time.

What did Mr. Lincoln say about fooling people...? Oh, yes:
Abraham Lincoln wrote:You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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I'm curious: what would it take to make the 'Republican Party' really Republican (that is to say, Lincolnian) again? There are a few elements in the modern G.O.P. that can be traced directly to its founding - the Republicans were the heirs apparent of the Free Soilers, and hence always somewhat corporatist - but it is only very recently, historically speaking, that the Republicans absorbed the Dixiecrats and became the Party of reaction. Hell, I'm sure any modern Republican would be shocked to know that Lincoln and Karl Marx were correspondents, and on friendly terms!

My family had been Republican since the end of the Civil War, and only turned Democratic during the New Deal. I myself identify most strongly with the crusading abolitionist Republicans of centuries past, but alas, that breed of Republican went extinct in San Francisco in 1964. I'd very much like to be able to vote for a Republican Republican during my lifetime.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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Whoa, Dean Cain is part Japanese? ...which I guess proves Broomstick's point, because I just thought he was a white guy with dark hair.

As for the more general topic of mixed-race children, a lot of us in the younger generations in the U.S. don't have as many issues with the one drop rule because we don't have the same kind of horror that a lot of older generations have (it's more common than it used to be, and when you get enough exposure to it as a kid, it just becomes normal). For purposes of intermarrying, people of Japanese descent may as well be white; we had four part-Japanese people in just my college marching band's clarinet section, and at no point did anyone ever consider us just plain Japanese. A lot of people as well are quite proud of their distant Native American ancestry, too, like the friend who, despite being a blonde, loved to interject that she was also 1/4 Cherokee.

But then there are holdouts like my deeply conservative (in all the worst ways) hometown, where the people just couldn't wrap their minds around the concept that I was also half-white as well as being half-Japanese, so they all just considered me to be Japanese (well, when they were able to get their minds around the concept that there was something to Asia other than China and weren't calling me Chinese, the fucking morons).
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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Mayabird wrote:Whoa, Dean Cain is part Japanese? ...which I guess proves Broomstick's point, because I just thought he was a white guy with dark hair.
Mr. Cain neither denies his Japanese grandparent nor makes a big deal out of it - which is more and more becoming the norm in the US. Which is why it's not surprising that many aren't aware that he is 1/4 Japanese, the subject just doesn't come up that often. Certainly, being 1/4 Japanese did not interfere with Mr. Cain being cast as Superman, an all American white-bread superhero.

Of course, a certain number of Japanese have Ainu* in their background, though they may be loathe to admit it, which can result in them being closer to Caucasians in skin color, eye color, hair quantity, and other traits than most Asian populations so Japanese/Caucasian crosses can rapidly start looking very Caucasian (though not always). Which just goes to show, once again, that we are all "mutts" to one degree or another.


* The idea that the Ainu are a Caucasian population isolated in Asia is highly debatable. The could also just be a population isolated long enough to develop certain traits that are different than more recently migrated to the region Asians, and which just happen to resemble European traits much as the Khoi-San have epicanthic folds but are about a distantly related to Asians as any group can be. Certain traits can appear in human populations without them being recently related to each other.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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Frankly, I don't know how the republican base will react to President Obama. Just his mixed-racial background I think will really challenge a lot of the more conservative assumptions about what the image of the United States is and should be, and the GOP will probably retreat into its strongholds in rural America until it can reorient itself.

What has driven the success of the modern GOP is really the idea that small town america represents the pinnacle of life in the world - the cumulating triumph of Manifest Destiny, American exceptionalism and its "city upon a hill" idealism. Sarah Palin is an excellent example of this line of thought. A lot of the policies espoused from the republicans stem from this vision, and have been under serious assault from the pressures of globalisation, international terrorism, and the current economic crisis. It's an ideology that needs to be revamped in order for the republicans to be competitive in anywhere but the most rural areas of America.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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ArcturusMengsk wrote:I'm curious: what would it take to make the 'Republican Party' really Republican (that is to say, Lincolnian) again?
The ideological descendants of Abe Lincoln all went over to the Democratic Party from about FDR forward. The other redeeming wing of the party, i.e. the pro-conservation, pro-regulation disciples of Teddy Roosevelt are also mostly Democrats, these days. Just like the racists and Christian dominionists left the Democratic Party after Kennedy and LBJ.

So, in order to make the Republican Party a progressive party again, you'd need to somehow get back constituencies who have been voting Democrat for generations now. You'd also have to somehow chase out the fundies, racists, and other assorted 'people' who think someone like Sarah Palin is the greatest thing since sliced bread. As the Republican Party is the last refuge for these people, they're not going to go quietly.

In short, you're asking what it would take to turn the GOP through 180 degrees. In other words, good luck. You'd be better off creating a strong third party that would pull in the less-insane arm of the GOP, and the disaffected GOP expatriates of the Democratic Party. Ideally, these two parties would end up splitting the religious right-wingers of a greatly diminished GOP (since the only way they will really go away is through decades of slow die-off,) instead of our putative New Republican party swallowing that constituency whole (as that would put the American political landscape right back to square one.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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Durr, me make prediction: I wonder if the Republican Party isn't simply finished and doomed to go the way of the Whigs and other US political parties that have fallen by the wayside. I wouldn't be surprised if the Democrats actually succeed them as the new right of center party as business lobbyists see the writing on the wall and a Democratic splinter group becomes the new, perhaps actually left-wing party. America might be slow, but I still believe she's beholden to the same general political trends as the rest of the civilized world.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Darth Raptor wrote:Durr, me make prediction: I wonder if the Republican Party isn't simply finished and doomed to go the way of the Whigs and other US political parties that have fallen by the wayside. I wouldn't be surprised if the Democrats actually succeed them as the new right of center party as business lobbyists see the writing on the wall and a Democratic splinter group becomes the new, perhaps actually left-wing party. America might be slow, but I still believe she's beholden to the same general political trends as the rest of the civilized world.
The GOP would have to suffer a few decades of straight defeats for national office and control of Congress before it would be anywhere close to collapse. The Whig example is not entirely applicable, since one of the drivers for its disintegration was the accelerating degeneration of America towards civil war in that time period.
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Patrick Degan wrote:
Darth Raptor wrote:Durr, me make prediction: I wonder if the Republican Party isn't simply finished and doomed to go the way of the Whigs and other US political parties that have fallen by the wayside. I wouldn't be surprised if the Democrats actually succeed them as the new right of center party as business lobbyists see the writing on the wall and a Democratic splinter group becomes the new, perhaps actually left-wing party. America might be slow, but I still believe she's beholden to the same general political trends as the rest of the civilized world.
The GOP would have to suffer a few decades of straight defeats for national office and control of Congress before it would be anywhere close to collapse. The Whig example is not entirely applicable, since one of the drivers for its disintegration was the accelerating degeneration of America towards civil war in that time period.
Yep, eventually economic conditions will get better and more people will switch their focus to social issues like abortion and such. Still, I think the country's demographics are shifting against the republicans, with the United States becoming more globalized and diverse economically, financially, and socially. This movement is gradual and won't start to have a really crushing impact on the current GOP ideology for a few generations. If the republicans are smart, they'll position themselves to take advantage of those shifts. If they continue to elect people like Sarah Palin, they won't be smart and eventually will get swept aside.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

heh, it was funny at work today, someone bitched about how Obama was a muslim who was just going to tax and bankrupt this country. I looked at him, and said "what do you mean Bush spent us into the current crisis."
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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Quiz:

Which young, thin, non-white, Ivy League-educated politician who has a foreign-sounding name and prominent ears is changing the face of politics as we know it?

Oh … and whose name is not Barack Obama?

Whuh?

That’s right, the president-elect may hold a monopoly on current buzz, but some in the GOP are looking to their own whiz kid to lead them out of the proverbial wilderness the Democrats have just left behind.

His name is Bobby Jindal, and he’s the 37-year-old Indian American governor of Louisiana.

Right now, for most people, handicapping 2012 probably feels like re-watching the previews right after sitting through a 7-hour movie. Yet some Republicans looking to resurrect their party from the ashes of Tuesday’s electoral conflagaration are already turning to the conservative Jindal, at least at the search box.

Jindal’s name has surged 350% in searches this week, tied with Mitt Romney and second only to Sarah Palin in 2012-related political queries. Buzz patrons are also reading up on the rising star in a bevy of speculative articles about the future of the GOP.

Jindal has consistently stated he's focused only on winning the 2011 re-election in Louisiana. But UPI is already calling the governor and his family “the other Obamas.”

Presumptuous, perhaps. But in 2004, who'd have thought that a first-term African American senator with a last name that rhymed with the country's enemy number one and a middle name that matched enemy number two's would be our next president?

Stay tuned.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl147

It seems this guy is gaining support from the republican base as well. I wonder what is his policy and political views.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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Jindal is a doctrinaire social and fiscal conservative, with an emphasis on fighting corruption. He's not as charismatic as Sarah Palin, but he's a shitload smarter. If the Democrats are smart, they'll keep an eye on him.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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ray245 wrote:It seems this guy is gaining support from the republican base as well. I wonder what is his policy and political views.
5 second version - he pushed through the LA congress a bit of pro-creationism/anti-evolution legislature that is the next salvo in the culture wars after Dover got its teeth kicked in. Guy is a bit to the right of Palin, but far smarter.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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Ender wrote:
ray245 wrote:It seems this guy is gaining support from the republican base as well. I wonder what is his policy and political views.
5 second version - he pushed through the LA congress a bit of pro-creationism/anti-evolution legislature that is the next salvo in the culture wars after Dover got its teeth kicked in. Guy is a bit to the right of Palin, but far smarter.
Which is very very scary. If this guy was nominated, Obama might faced his greatest challenge yet in an re-election.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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ray245 wrote:
Which is very very scary. If this guy was nominated, Obama might faced his greatest challenge yet in an re-election.
He's also famous for preforming exorcisms on others. No need to go to the crazy pastor with Jindal, he is the crazy pastor. And there are rumors of a tape of one of those said exorcisms out there.

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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

Post by ArcturusMengsk »

I don't think Jindal is much of a threat. The old Dixiecrats that broke off from the mainstream Democratic Party on the wedge of desegregation beginning in 1948 and culminating in the 60's are still the Republican Party's biggest voting bloc in the deep South and Appalachia. They'd take one look at Jindal and run in the other direction, probably abstaining from voting altogether. Moreover, I think he's smart enough to wait for 2016 to run.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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Well that's even worse, since if he waits 'till 2016 he might have a better chance of winning, which would not be a good thing.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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Gosh, I hate the idea of a two term limit. At the least make it a three term limit. Two term is way too short for a person to rebuild an economy after a depression.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

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ray245 wrote:Gosh, I hate the idea of a two term limit. At the least make it a three term limit. Two term is way too short for a person to rebuild an economy after a depression.
Never going to happen. It'll take a Constitutional Amendment won't it?
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

Post by Ghost Rider »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
ray245 wrote:Gosh, I hate the idea of a two term limit. At the least make it a three term limit. Two term is way too short for a person to rebuild an economy after a depression.
Never going to happen. It'll take a Constitutional Amendment won't it?
Yes, it would. And given the current climate, it would require that Obama proves he's the second coming of at least three or four presidents.
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Re: What Defeat Will Do To The GOP (Op-ED)

Post by Broomstick »

We have some reason for a two term limit. If you look at images of presidents before they're inaugurated and after you'll see the job seriously ages a person. FDR is the only person to have served more than two terms, and it had a disasterous effect on his health. It was not reported at the time but there were episodes where he would fall out of his chair in the Oval Office and the secret service guys on duty would have to pick him up and put him back in it. Both Stalin and Churchhill noted his deteriorating health when they met with him in person. Aside from the concern of having a "president for life", one of the reasons for limiting the job to two terms was to avoid killing the person who held it.

The fate of the nation can not rest on one man alone, no matter how important or accomplished that man is. That is why we have rules of succession. If Obama does a good enough job his first two terms to warrant his continued participation in national affairs his successor is free to appoint him to appropriate office or otherwise make use of his experience and skills. There is, in fact, considerable precedent for the current PotUS to call on prior holders of that office for assistance and advice regardless of party affiliations.

Even Nixon, who left the office of PotUS in disgrace, was tapped by later presidents and his contributions after he left office had a great deal to do with the partial rehabilitation of his image late in life. No one forgave him for the wrongs he did in office, but it is recognized that he continued to serve his country when asked for the remainder of his life.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
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