Israel declares unilateral cease-fire

[Gil Hamilton]

You may well be right about Hamas not conceding power following an election, but most or all of the violence you're referring to occurred after Hamas had won the elections. Fatah and Hamas had a bit of a civil war, into which the other little factions jumped, that resulted in Hamas effectively expelling the other groups (or at least the ones it saw as being aligned with Fatah) from Gaza.

That's not true. Hamas and Fatah (and everyone else) already were coming to blows by the 2006 election. Hamas and Fatah were already having fights starting from when Yassir Arafat died over a year previously and were well on their way to a political cue. The civil conflict sparked into an all out brawl that Hamas won to take COMPLETE control after the election, but they already had dudes on the streets with guns taking out political rivals by that point. Hamas's victory in the election, aside from the fact that only a tiny fraction of Palestine actually voted in it (in part because of those dudes with guns), was not a exercise in democracy that people claim in order to say that all Palestinians have it coming to them.

[Ryan Thunder]

You may well be right about Hamas not conceding power following an election, but most or all of the violence you're referring to occurred after Hamas had won the elections. Fatah and Hamas had a bit of a civil war, into which the other little factions jumped, that resulted in Hamas effectively expelling the other groups (or at least the ones it saw as being aligned with Fatah) from Gaza.

That's not true. Hamas and Fatah (and everyone else) already were coming to blows by the 2006 election. Hamas and Fatah were already having fights starting from when Yassir Arafat died over a year previously and were well on their way to a political cue. The civil conflict sparked into an all out brawl that Hamas won to take COMPLETE control after the election, but they already had dudes on the streets with guns taking out political rivals by that point. Hamas's victory in the election, aside from the fact that only a tiny fraction of Palestine actually voted in it (in part because of those dudes with guns), was not a exercise in democracy that people claim in order to say that all Palestinians have it coming to them.

It's a lose-lose, actually. If Hamas was elected, then the Palestinians "have it coming." For the record, I don't really subscribe to this particular sentiment very much. I'd rather hope that people have some good in them and were merely stupid or otherwise unable to make a good decision.

If they weren't, well then they're like a cancer and that requires chemo, much of the time.

[Edi]

You may well be right about Hamas not conceding power following an election, but most or all of the violence you're referring to occurred after Hamas had won the elections. Fatah and Hamas had a bit of a civil war, into which the other little factions jumped, that resulted in Hamas effectively expelling the other groups (or at least the ones it saw as being aligned with Fatah) from Gaza.

That's not true. Hamas and Fatah (and everyone else) already were coming to blows by the 2006 election. Hamas and Fatah were already having fights starting from when Yassir Arafat died over a year previously and were well on their way to a political cue. The civil conflict sparked into an all out brawl that Hamas won to take COMPLETE control after the election, but they already had dudes on the streets with guns taking out political rivals by that point. Hamas's victory in the election, aside from the fact that only a tiny fraction of Palestine actually voted in it (in part because of those dudes with guns), was not a exercise in democracy that people claim in order to say that all Palestinians have it coming to them.

It's a lose-lose, actually. If Hamas was elected, then the Palestinians "have it coming." For the record, I don't really subscribe to this particular sentiment very much. I'd rather hope that people have some good in them and were merely stupid or otherwise unable to make a good decision.

If they weren't, well then they're like a cancer and that requires chemo, much of the time.

Grow the fuck up and educate yourself before making moronic pronouncements about shit you don't understand. You're one of the cancer growths of stupidity on this board precisely because you think you have it all figured out and you don't bother to even try to see anything that doesn't fit your premade conclusions.

[Master of Ossus]

That's not true. Hamas and Fatah (and everyone else) already were coming to blows by the 2006 election. Hamas and Fatah were already having fights starting from when Yassir Arafat died over a year previously and were well on their way to a political cue. The civil conflict sparked into an all out brawl that Hamas won to take COMPLETE control after the election, but they already had dudes on the streets with guns taking out political rivals by that point. Hamas's victory in the election, aside from the fact that only a tiny fraction of Palestine actually voted in it (in part because of those dudes with guns), was not a exercise in democracy that people claim in order to say that all Palestinians have it coming to them.

Interesting. I had assumed that when the UN had allowed the election to proceed, they had looked into the situation and found that the elections were fair. Apparently I was mistaken, since I did some google research and you seem to be right. That does change my opinion on the matter.

[eyl]

That's not true. Hamas and Fatah (and everyone else) already were coming to blows by the 2006 election. Hamas and Fatah were already having fights starting from when Yassir Arafat died over a year previously and were well on their way to a political cue. The civil conflict sparked into an all out brawl that Hamas won to take COMPLETE control after the election, but they already had dudes on the streets with guns taking out political rivals by that point. Hamas's victory in the election, aside from the fact that only a tiny fraction of Palestine actually voted in it (in part because of those dudes with guns), was not a exercise in democracy that people claim in order to say that all Palestinians have it coming to them.

Tiny percentage? The Palestinian Central Elections Commission places the turnout at 73% of registered voters. Even if you go by Electronic Intifada (which I don't really consider a reliable source), who claim this was a gross exaggeration - since a third of eligible voters ween't registered, and only 10% of them voted (unregistered voters were allowed to vote at the last minute, as I understand) you still get a turnout of around 50%. And as I recall, western observers described the process as "peaceful", FWIW.

Seems likely that within 12-24 hours everyone in Gaza will have conveniently forgotten that it was Israel that declared the cease-fire first. Befoe long it will be all heroic fighters defeated ruthless Zionist war machine etc, etc, etc.

Oh, they've already started, including some gems worthy of Baghdad Bob. For one thing, they''re claiming only 48 casualties. According to the Hebrew version of that article, they also claim to have killed 80 IDF soldiers, damaged or destroyed 74 armored vehicles, and downed 4 helicopters and a UAV. And then yu have Haniyeh declaring a "popular victory".

[CJvR]

Oh, they've already started, including some gems worthy of Baghdad Bob. For one thing, they''re claiming only 48 casualties. According to the Hebrew version of that article, they also claim to have killed 80 IDF soldiers, damaged or destroyed 74 armored vehicles, and downed 4 helicopters and a UAV. And then yu have Haniyeh declaring a "popular victory".

LOL!
Gaza will stand among such other famous victories as the Romans at Cannae, the Jews at Massada, the French at Agincourt, the Habsburg - Romanovs at Austerlitz and the Germans during Bagraton. Although in one thing they are right, in asymetrical warfare anything where the weaker side survives is a victory of some sort.

[Ryan Thunder]

Oh, they've already started, including some gems worthy of Baghdad Bob. For one thing, they''re claiming only 48 casualties. According to the Hebrew version of that article, they also claim to have killed 80 IDF soldiers, damaged or destroyed 74 armored vehicles, and downed 4 helicopters and a UAV. And then yu have Haniyeh declaring a "popular victory".

Do they want to get the shit bombed out of them again?

[Kanastrous]

One almost wants to see a few shells lobbed in the direction of the 'victory' rallies, just to get the point across.

Almost.

[bobalot]

I wonder why Israel didn't want any reporters in the Gaza strip. It was of course for their own safety, not to cover up the scale of the butchery in Gaza.

Israel may face war-crimes case for alleged atrocities

Tim Butcher in Zeitoun, Gaza
January 21, 2009

THE sight of her dead four-year-old son's blood splashed on a breeze-block wall was enough to start Zinad Samouni sobbing.

But the 35-year-old Palestinian mother of eight then composed herself to give the most complete allegation yet of atrocities committed by Israeli forces when they occupied the village of Zeitoun on the outskirts of Gaza City.

Standing in the wreckage of her home, she described the cold-blooded shooting of her 46-year-old husband, Atiyeh, and her son, Ahmed, in an incident that could form the core of a war crimes investigation against Israel.

The United Nations commissioner for human rights, Navi Pillay, has already said Israel should be investigated for what happened in Zeitoun on January 4 and 5.

So far dozens of bodies, mostly women, children and elderly, have been recovered, almost all from the same extended family.

The 48th corpse was found on Monday but there are fears others lie under the rubble.

"We had been in our houses for days worried about the air strikes when the soldiers came early on the morning of Sunday, January 4," Zinad Samouni said.

"There was shooting outside and we were all afraid so we all hid in this one room."

There were her husband, his first wife, Zahwe, 42, with her seven sons, a cousin, Hamdi, and herself, with her eight children.

"We were terrified as shells hit the roof in other parts of the house but we thought we were lucky because they did not hit our room.

"Eventually we heard soldiers banging on the door at around 6.30am. Atiyeh went to the door with his hands raised holding his ID but they shot him in the doorway and he fell forward."

Faraj Samouni, 22, Zahwe's son, said the children started to scream as Israeli soldiers entered.

"I shouted 'children, children' in Hebrew but they started shooting," he said. "Ahmed was hit two times. His sister Amal was hit in the head and is still in hospital."

Zinad Samouni pointed at a lick of blood on the wall and then turned over the mattress the children had been sitting on to show more. "I carried him [Ahmed] in my arms, still bleeding, and we had to step over the body of his father," she said.

"We had to leave Atiyeh but I hoped to save Ahmed. He died as I carried him."

Atiyeh's body lay where he had been shot for almost two weeks while Israeli soldiers occupied a four-storey house next door, leaving a collection of racist graffiti. Most was written in Hebrew but Israeli soldiers had also marked the walls in English, with messages such as "ARabs need 2 die", "Arabs are pieces of shit" and "1 is DOWN 999,999 TO GO".

The house was the only large property that the Israeli army allowed to stand. All the other buildings in Zeitoun, including dwellings, the mosque and a chicken farm, were flattened. They used the house as an observation post from which to watch the open ground around Zeitoun, which guards the southern approach to Gaza City.

What happened in the house of Wael Samouni, 39, almost opposite the four-storey structure, is also likely to figure in any war crimes investigation. Survivors allege that Israeli forces shepherded about 110 members of the Samouni family inside and then shelled it. At least 30 bodies were recovered. Flattened by the Israelis, the wreckage is barely recognisable as a building.

Ambulance drivers, when they first tried to reach the dead and wounded in the village, were shot at by Israeli forces. In the end the ambulance crews made four visits, collecting 48 bodies as of Monday night.

When the crews found children clinging to their mothers' corpses, the International Committee of the Red Cross reminded Israel of its obligations to civilians under the rules of war.

The children had been out in the open for two days and nights but Israeli forces, less than 90 metres away, allegedly did nothing.

The Israeli army has denied acting improperly in Zeitoun.

Telegraph, London

[Ryan Thunder]

One almost wants to see a few shells lobbed in the direction of the 'victory' rallies, just to get the point across.

Almost.

Oh, yeah. It'd be totally unethical and accomplish next to nothing, though.

I wonder why Israel didn't want any reporters in the Gaza strip. It was of course for their own safety, not to cover up the scale of the butchery in Gaza.

Where's the link?

[eyl]

One almost wants to see a few shells lobbed in the direction of the 'victory' rallies, just to get the point across.

Almost.

Just buzzing them should do the trick.

[bobalot]

One almost wants to see a few shells lobbed in the direction of the 'victory' rallies, just to get the point across.

Almost.

Oh, yeah. It'd be totally unethical and accomplish next to nothing, though.

I wonder why Israel didn't want any reporters in the Gaza strip. It was of course for their own safety, not to cover up the scale of the butchery in Gaza.

Where's the link?

Sorry heres the link

[Posner]

The timing of this worked out perfectly for Israel (which makes sense because they were in charge of stopping and starting this last war, battle, struggle, whatever you call it.) Olmert could do some saber rattling for the upcoming election, Obama wasn't involved, and Hamas has to take time to rebuild their infrastructure. Obama probably won't differ much from Bush as far as Israel goes, but he is an unknown factor so Israel would rather deal with Bush. And I gotta think Israel was hoping that they hurt Hamas enough for Fatah to smack Hamas around and retake Hezbollah. Neither side won, but Israel was able to crack the whip while losing few soldiers. Hamas goes on, it was never a war of annihilation anyway. There isn't going to be a military solution to this in the forseeable future, so Israel thinks "whats a few more bodies to the count"

[ray245]

United Nations chief Ban Ki-moon on Tuesday denounced Hamas rocket attacks on Israel as "appalling and unacceptable," while also calling for an investigation into Israel's shelling of UN facilities in the Gaza Strip during its three-week offensive against the Palestinian militant group.

The UN secretary general toured the southern Israeli town of Sderot, which has been subjected to almost daily rocket attacks from militants based in Gaza for several years.

Ban said the projectiles are indiscriminate weapons and constitute a violation by Hamas of basic humanitarian law. However, he also urged Israel to end its crippling blockade of Gaza.

Israel has all but sealed its border crossings with Gaza since the expiry of a six-month ceasefire between it and Hamas last month. That was followed by the military campaign that began on Dec. 27 to curb militant rocket attacks into its southern towns. Gaza's southern neighbour Egypt has also kept its border crossings with Gaza closed.
Shelling of UN Gaza buildings 'outrageous'

During a visit earlier in the day to the burned out UN headquarters in Gaza, Ban asked the crowd to observe a moment of silence for victims of the offensive. They included nearly 40 Palestinians who had sought refuge at a UN school shelled by Israel.

Israel initially said militants fired mortar shells at its troops from outside the school, drawing return fire, but UN officials have said Israeli military officials later admitted there was no gunfire from there.

"It is an outrageous and totally unacceptable attack on the United Nations,” said a clearly angry Ban.

'It has been especially troubling and heartbreaking for me as secretary general that I couldn't end this faster.'—Ban Ki-moon, UN secretary general

Calling the crisis a "collective political failure," Ban said he would share the findings of his trip to Gaza with world leaders, including Barack Obama, who was being sworn in Tuesday as U.S. president.

"It has been especially troubling and heartbreaking for me as secretary general that I couldn't end this faster," Ban told reporters.

Earlier in the day, Ban met with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and stressed the importance of the full withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza and the need to ensure humanitarian aid for the 1.5 million people, the UN press office said in a statement.
Gaza reconstruction to cost billions

Ban's comments came as UN officials estimated rebuilding the heavily damaged Palestinian territory after the conflict could cost billions of dollars and may take years.

Meanwhile, initial estimates by independent surveyors found that the Hamas-run territory lost about $2 billion in assets.

The damage includes 4,100 homes, about 1,500 factories and workshops, 20 mosques, 31 security compounds and 10 water or sewage lines.

Surrounded by rubble, Gazans face a monumental cleanup effort, and many were left homeless after tank shells rendered buildings uninhabitable.

Officials hope to restore water and electricity networks over the next few weeks, but that would depend on Israel allowing spare parts to be brought into the coastal territory.

Even during the shaky six-month ceasefire preceding the war, Israel barely eased restrictions on the flow of goods into Gaza, for fear supplies would end up strengthening Hamas.

Israel plans to keep close control over what is allowed into the Palestinian territory and is waiting for international aid groups to assess damage before considering requests.

"We are not looking to give Hamas a prize," said Peter Lerner, an official in the Israeli military. "There are limits, and the priority is food supplies."

Israel also denied a charge by Arab countries that it had used munitions containing depleted uranium in the offensive.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said the allegations were "poor propaganda" and that similar accusations in the past were groundless.
Troops expected to pull out

Israeli troops were expected to withdraw fully from the territory ahead of Obama's inauguration, if Hamas holds its fire, according to unnamed Israeli officials.

Damage so far is estimated to be around $1.9 billion US, according to separate surveys by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics and a Palestinian economic development council that serves as a liaison between Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas's government and donor countries. Both are based in the West Bank.

Mohammed Shtayyeh, head of the economic council, estimates rebuilding could take as long as three to five years even under ideal conditions, including Israel and Egypt lifting their blockades and Hamas and Abbas settling their differences.

On Monday, Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah offered $1 billion to help rebuild the Gaza Strip. The international community has also vowed to help.

UN humanitarian chief John Holmes told reporters at UN headquarters on Monday that the agency's staff are trying "to find out as much as they can about how great the damage is and how great the needs are."

He estimated that the cost will be massive.

"I think on the purely humanitarian and early recovery side … it will be hundreds of millions of dollars and no doubt the overall reconstruction costs will be numbered in billions of dollars, but I wouldn't want to put a figure on it beyond that," he said.
Tallying the losses

Hamas civil servants travelled around the territory, taking down names of Gazans who suffered losses.

"Despite the size of the destruction and despite the war, we are still functioning," said Ehab Ghussein, a spokesman for Hamas's Interior Ministry.

The conflict has killed at least 1,259 Palestinians, more than half of them civilians, according to the UN, Gaza officials and rights groups.

Thirteen Israelis have also died, including four soldiers killed inadvertently by their own forces' fire.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/01/2 ... ml?ref=rss

The damage has really been extensive, and the cost of reconstruction is so high in the face of a global depression.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Meanwhile, initial estimates by independent surveyors found that the Hamas-run territory lost about $2 billion in assets.

The damage includes 4,100 homes, about 1,500 factories and workshops, 20 mosques, 31 security compounds and 10 water or sewage lines.

Damage so far is estimated to be around $1.9 billion US, according to separate surveys by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics and a Palestinian economic development council that serves as a liaison between Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas's government and donor countries. Both are based in the West Bank.


On Monday, Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah offered $1 billion to help rebuild the Gaza Strip. The international community has also vowed to help.

"I think on the purely humanitarian and early recovery side … it will be hundreds of millions of dollars and no doubt the overall reconstruction costs will be numbered in billions of dollars, but I wouldn't want to put a figure on it beyond that," he said.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/01/2 ... ml?ref=rss

The damage has really been extensive, and the cost of reconstruction is so high in the face of a global depression.

So, about 2 billion dollars worth of economic damage, and they still have full (if not increasing) international aid (Which was around 47-52% of their GDP anyway) and at least 1 billion dollars pledged from just one tiny neighbouring Arab nation.
Israel took more economic damage out of this, estimates have the shutdown of the South's economy (this in the period before Beer Sheva entered the radius of fire) as around 30 billion shekels and that's without the costs of the operation itself. (10 billion shekels probably +-). 4.4 shekels to the dollar, give or take.

Another estimate, by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics puts the damage at $1.5 billion: The direct damage suffered by the Strip's residents is estimated at $400 million, while the damage to infrastructures is estimated at $1 billion.

According to this estimate, some 20,000 buildings have been damaged in the Strip so far (15% of the structures), some destroyed completely and some partially damaged.

About 26,000 Palestinians are no longer living in their homes and are centered in 31 large United Nations shelters. Some of these refugees have no house to return to.

Loai Shabana, director of the Palestinian Central Bureau Statistics, added that on the eve of the Israeli offensive the unemployment rate in Gaza had reached 42% of the workforce (some 120,000 people). But now, he said, in light of the fighting, the unemployment rate may exceed 60%.

IDF completes withdrawal of all soldiers from Gaza
By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent and Agencies
Tags: IDF, Israel News, Hamas, Gaza

The Israel Defense Forces on Wednesday said it had withdrawn all of its soldiers from Gaza, three and a half weeks after launching Operation Cast Lead against Hamas in the coastal territory.

"As of this morning, the last of the Israel Defence Forces soldiers have left the Gaza Strip and the forces have deployed outside of Gaza and are prepared for any occurrences," an army spokesman said.

The pullout was completed before dawn on Wednesday, according to the army.

Israel sent thousands of troops into the Palestinian territory earlier this month as part of the bruising 22-day offensive against militants who have terrorized southern Israel with rocket fire for years.

The timing of the pullout reflected Israeli hopes to defuse the crisis in Gaza before new U.S. President Barack Obama entered the White House.

Addressing concerns in Israel that Obama would soften Washington's policy towards Hamas and another Israeli foe, Iran, Vice Premier Haim Ramon said: "Let's not fear President Obama. I am convinced that President Obama and his team want to achieve what is essential to Israel - two states for two peoples," Ramon told Israel Radio.

The IDF said troops remain massed on the Israeli side of the border, prepared to take action in the event of renewed militant fire. And Israeli navy ships reportedly shot rounds of machine-gun fire at the beaches of northern Gaza.

The military had no immediate comment on the gunboat fire.

Both sides declared cease-fires that went into effect Sunday. But the truce has been shaky, with firing from both sides.

Israel reported mortar shelling from Gaza on Tuesday. The Palestinians have said Israeli troops shot to death two farmers since the truce took hold.

The military said some troops remain massed on the Israeli side of the border prepared to take action against renewed militant fire.

The United Nations, whose secretary-general, Ban Ki-moon, toured Gaza's rubble-strewn streets on Tuesday and described the destruction he witnessed as heartbreaking, has estimated some $330 million is needed for urgent aid in the coastal enclave.

Reconstruction, if it can be launched in light of the frost between Hamas and the West, may cost close to $2 billion, according to Palestinian and international estimates.

The liaison office for civilian territories, meanwhile, said Hamas is intentionally harming humanitarian aid transferred from Israel by firing mortars at the Karni, Kissufim and Kerem Shalom crossings. The liaison office and Shin Bet security service both accused Hamas of looting trucks bringing supplies into Gaza.

The Shin Bet also reported many instances since the cease-fire of Hamas members shooting and wounding Fatah activists in Gaza.

IAF hits back at mortar shell launchers

The Israel Air Force on Tuesday attacked areas in the Gaza Strip from which Palestinians fired mortar shells. The Israel Defense Forces said that about eight mortar shells were shot from near a central Gaza refugee camp, apparently by Hamas. Two of the shells landed in the Strip and the rest fell in open territory in the western Negev near the border.

At this stage, the IDF is holding its fire after its attack at around 6 P.M. Tuesday.

The Palestinians also fired light weapons into Israel on Tuesday, from both north and south of the Kissufim crossing. An explosive charge was also apparently set off.

Also Tuesday, the IDF began to discharge reservists who took part in Operation Cast Lead. Military sources, however, said a harsh aerial response can be expected if the cross-border attacks continue.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi visited Southern Command headquarters Tuesday and met senior officers who took part in the operation. Olmert also heard reviews from brigade commanders.

Olmert thanked the IDF, Southern Command and the Shin Bet for their performance during the three-week war. He also commented on criticism from officers in the three days since the cease-fire took effect.

Olmert said he had considered allowing the army to continue the attack as GOC Southern Command Maj. Gen Yoav Gallant had sought, but felt this would have required a period of time "for which we did not a sufficient diplomatic window."

The IDF plans to expand the entry of goods into the Gaza Strip in the coming days.

The IDF has also taken preliminary steps to defend military officers against legal charges abroad stemming from their involvement in Operation Cast Lead. The full names of battalion commanders involved in the fighting will be censored to prevent Israeli and international left-wing activists from attempting to try them for war crimes. The names of more senior officers cannot be redacted as their involvement and names have been reported by many media outlets.

[Guardsman Bass]

That doesn't surprise me. After all, if they steal the aid and then distribute themselves (or some of it), they get to look good. I'm guessing they fire at the crossings in order to force Israel to either cut-off aid completely (which will create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, which Hamas can then blame on Israel), or to force them to lower the blockade, at which point Hamas says that the "brave martyrs" or whatever forced Israel to open it up.