Trespassing illegals sue property owner - Huhh?

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

The
"not integrating" arguement is NOT BS. Unlike other immigrants of the past, the ones from Mexico can and DO travel back and forth, removing incentives to assimilate.

When you have to get on a boat and make a long jouney to get here, and a long journey to get back, (weeks if not months as was before) you have a different mindset. Many consider it a seasonal commute, not a once in a lifetime trip.

As to open borders benifiting America, that is BS. You can have unlimited immigration, or a social safety net, but not both! There are simply too many poor.The net breaks, as it is straining now. ERs are CLOSING all over because we can't legaly refuse them care, so illeagals use the ER as their healthcare system.

[Havok]

So, is anyone besides Shep and Executor going to actually back any of their claims up with proof, sources or evidence? Or is Bilbo's "Do some digging", acceptable now?

[Terralthra]

As to open borders benifiting America, that is BS. You can have unlimited immigration, or a social safety net, but not both! There are simply too many poor.The net breaks, as it is straining now. ERs are CLOSING all over because we can't legaly refuse them care, so illeagals use the ER as their healthcare system.

If this were true (for which you have provided no evidence of a link), then it would be an argument IN FAVOR of allowing more legal immigration, so that these same people could get a proper health care system legally instead of relying on ERs.

There's also the point you miss, which is that a good number of citizens since birth rely on ERs for primary health care, because the health care system in this country is fucked. Saying that illegal immigration combined with its fuckupedness create even more fuckedupedness is missing that point that it's fucked up for everyone.

[Lord of the Abyss]

The
"not integrating" arguement is NOT BS. Unlike other immigrants of the past, the ones from Mexico can and DO travel back and forth, removing incentives to assimilate.

But they do anyway - if they are legal. The legal immigrants are integrating just as fast as any other wave of immigrants. It's the illegals who don't integrate, because we won't let them.

[Count Chocula]

I'm waiting for proof on this. The claim that illegal immigrants are responsible for a great deal of crime is a common claim of anti-immigration advocates, but where are the crime statistics and studies?

Here's a teaser, from an article written in 2004:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

[italics added]

Here's an especially heinous individual example, a true scumbag - and illegal alien - named Angel Resendiz. Here's the list of murders that would have been prevented had he not been able to enter the US illegally:

The bludgeoning death of Florida teenager Jesse Howell and the rape and strangulation murder of his fiance, Wendy Von Huben.

The bludgeoning death of University of Kentucky student Christopher Maier and the rape and near-murder of his girlfriend, who survived the attack.

The murder of Leafie Mason, an elderly Texas whom Resendiz hammered to death with a fire iron.

The rape, stabbing, and bludgeoning death of Baylor College of Medicine researcher Claudia Benton.

The sledgehammer bludgeonings of Texas pastor Norman Sirnic and his wife, Karen.

The bludgeoning death of Houston teacher Noemi Dominguez.

The murder of elderly Texas widow Josephine Konvicka, who was killed with a grubbing hoe.

The murders of George Morber, shot in the head, and Carolyn Frederick, clubbed to death.

The last four of Resendiz's victims were murdered after Resendiz had been released by federal immigration officials — even though there were already warrants outstanding for his arrest.

[emphasis added]

Here's a study done by the Urban Institute, funded by the Dept. of Justice. Here are some of the findings, more at the article of course:

USSC [U.S. Sentencing Commission]

* The number of illegal aliens sentenced in federal courts increased by 167 percent , compared with 13 percent for citizens. The number of legal aliens declined by 18 percent over this period.
* The share of defendants in federal courts who were illegal aliens rose from 4 percent to 11 percent while the share who were legal aliens declined from 12 percent to 9 percent.
* The number of illegal aliens sentenced increased for 89 of the 94 federal district courts, for all major offense categories, and for all major country of citizenship groups [between 1991 and 1995].

SCAAP [State Criminal Alien Assistance Program]

* Mexico was the dominant country of origin among illegal alien state prisoners in Arizona, California, Texas, and Illinois. In New York, Florida, and New Jersey, illegal immigrants from the Caribbean and from Central and South America constituted the largest shares of illegal aliens in state prisons, although in these states no single country or country group dominated.
* The vast majority of illegal alien state prisoners entered the United States illegally, rather than entering the country legally and then remaining after their authorized period of stay had expired. Texas and California had the largest share of illegal aliens who entered without inspection—94–95 percent—while shares for Illinois and New Jersey were the lowest—85–86 percent.
* Types of offense committed differed by country of origin. Colombians and Dominicans were especially likely to have been imprisoned for drug-related offenses. Among Haitians and Nicaraguans, drug offenses were relatively uncommon.

That's about all I have time to list. You could spend hours citing examples - well, maybe I could.

[Bilbo]

The "not integrated" argument is bullshit. Just take a look at third-generation hispanics, only 4-5% of whom are able to speak Spanish on average, for example - they're as American anyone else. Moreover, not every illegal immigrant is coming here to permanently settle - in fact, in past times, the movement was usually circular; they'd come north, work a while, then go back with the money. It was like this from 1967-1985, when 28 million Mexican migrants came to the US - and 23.5 million of them went home.

Who fucking cares what 3rd generation hispanics speak or do? We are talking about the problems illegals cause TODAY. I have no interest in living in a society of increased crime, reduced wages, and increased filth, in the hope that their grandkids speak English. It does not matter to me. What matters to me is how my life is today, what the lives of my children are like today, and how safe my family is TODAY.

[erik_t]

By all means, show us how illegal Mexican immigrants are somehow "filthier" than the rest of us. Do they smell bad? Do those dirty rotten brown folk hurt your delicate white nose, Bilbo?

[Bilbo]

Great information Count. Here is another interesting article. You might not like the source, and some of the items like the statement by the Iowa Congressman cannot be supported, there are still lots of other facts from reputable sources listed.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103

INVASION USA
Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily
Death toll in 2006 far overshadows total U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq, Afghanistan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: November 28, 2006
1:00 am Eastern


By Joseph Farah
© 2009 WorldNetDaily.com




WASHINGTON – While the military "quagmire" in Iraq was said to tip the scales of power in the U.S. midterm elections, most Americans have no idea more of their fellow citizens – men, women and children – were murdered this year by illegal aliens than the combined death toll of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan since those military campaigns began.

Though no federal statistics are kept on murders or any other crimes committed by illegal aliens, a number of groups have produced estimates based on data collected from prisons, news reports and independent research.

Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That's 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001.

Total U.S. troop deaths in Iraq as of last week were reported at 2,863. Total U.S. troop deaths in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Uzbekistan during the five years of the Afghan campaign are currently at 289, according to the Department of Defense.

(Story continues below)


But the carnage wrought by illegal alien murderers represents only a fraction of the pool of blood spilled by American citizens as a result of an open border and un-enforced immigration laws.

While King reports 12 Americans are murdered daily by illegal aliens, he says 13 are killed by drunk illegal alien drivers – for another annual death toll of 4,745. That's 23,725 since Sept. 11, 2001.

While no one – in or out of government – tracks all U.S. accidents caused by illegal aliens, the statistical and anecdotal evidence suggests many of last year's 42,636 road deaths involved illegal aliens.

A report by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Study found 20 percent of fatal accidents involve at least one driver who lacks a valid license. In California, another study showed that those who have never held a valid license are about five times more likely to be involved in a fatal road accident than licensed drivers.

Statistically, that makes them an even greater danger on the road than drivers whose licenses have been suspended or revoked – and nearly as dangerous as drunk drivers.

King also reports eight American children are victims of sexual abuse by illegal aliens every day – a total of 2,920 annually.

Based on a one-year in-depth study, Deborah Schurman-Kauflin of the Violent Crimes Institute of Atlanta estimates there are about 240,000 illegal immigrant sex offenders in the United States who have had an average of four victims each. She analyzed 1,500 cases from January 1999 through April 2006 that included serial rapes, serial murders, sexual homicides and child molestation committed by illegal immigrants.

As the number of illegal aliens in the U.S. increases, so does the number of American victims.

According to Edwin Rubenstien, president of ESR Research Economic Consultants, in Indianapolis in 1980, federal and state correctional facilities held fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens. But at the end of 2003, approximately 267,000 illegal aliens were incarcerated in all U.S. jails and prisons.

While the federal government doesn't track illegal alien murders, illegal alien rapes or illegal alien drunk driving deaths, it has studied illegal aliens incarcerated in U.S. prisons.

In April 2005, the Government Accountability Office released a report on a study of 55,322 illegal aliens incarcerated in federal, state, and local facilities during 2003. It found the following:

The 55,322 illegal aliens studied represented a total of 459,614 arrests – some eight arrests per illegal alien;
Their arrests represented a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses – some 13 offenses per illegal alien;
36 percent had been arrested at least five times before.
"While the vast majority of illegal aliens are decent people who work hard and are only trying to make a better life for themselves and their families, (something you or I would probably do if we were in their place), it is also a fact that a disproportionately high percentage of illegal aliens are criminals and sexual predators," states Peter Wagner, author of a new report called "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration." "That is part of the dark side of illegal immigration and when we allow the 'good' in we get the 'bad' along with them. The question is, how much 'bad' is acceptable and at what price?"

[Bilbo]

By all means, show us how illegal Mexican immigrants are somehow "filthier" than the rest of us. Do they smell bad? Do those dirty rotten brown folk hurt your delicate white nose, Bilbo?

Look at any of the pictures of spots where illegals cross regularly. They look like landfills. So try bringing up a point that is relevant instead of scoring "look how cool I am" points with your inane statement.

[erik_t]

By all means, show us how illegal Mexican immigrants are somehow "filthier" than the rest of us. Do they smell bad? Do those dirty rotten brown folk hurt your delicate white nose, Bilbo?

Look at any of the pictures of spots where illegals cross regularly. They look like landfills. So try bringing up a point that is relevant instead of scoring "look how cool I am" points with your inane statement.

Look at any of the pictures of spots where ANY people congregate in large numbers. They look like landfills. So try bringing some actual evidence that is relevant instead of scoring "look at this conservitard melt down in real time" points with your inane statement.

[Count Chocula]

dirty rotten brown folk

The post said increased filth, NOT dirty rotten brown folk.

Do you have any experience with illegal aliens you could share to actually add something to this discussion? How about an article link? A reasoned conclusion, or a counterpoint to something already raised somewhere on the prior 2 pages? If not, take your one-shot ad hominems and shove them up your ass.

[erik_t]

It's an ad hominim to ask someone to substantiate a point? We're well on our way to Banathon 2009, aren't we?

To answer your question, I lived in southern Arizona for four years. Die in a fire.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, they got you on the Mexicans never assimilating bit. Its been a struggle to ever write on English on this board, despite being half-Mexican and generations removed from native-born ancestors.

[Guardsman Bass]

I'm waiting for proof on this. The claim that illegal immigrants are responsible for a great deal of crime is a common claim of anti-immigration advocates, but where are the crime statistics and studies?

Here's a teaser, from an article written in 2004:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

[italics added]

Do you know what the word context mean anything to you? You said "up to two-thirds of all felony warrants" - out of how many felonies? And more importantly (the question you dodged), how does the crime rate of illegals compare to that of the greater population?

Here's an especially heinous individual example, a true scumbag - and illegal alien - named Angel Resendiz. Here's the list of murders that would have been prevented had he not been able to enter the US illegally:

The bludgeoning death of Florida teenager Jesse Howell and the rape and strangulation murder of his fiance, Wendy Von Huben.

The bludgeoning death of University of Kentucky student Christopher Maier and the rape and near-murder of his girlfriend, who survived the attack.

The murder of Leafie Mason, an elderly Texas whom Resendiz hammered to death with a fire iron.

The rape, stabbing, and bludgeoning death of Baylor College of Medicine researcher Claudia Benton.

The sledgehammer bludgeonings of Texas pastor Norman Sirnic and his wife, Karen.

The bludgeoning death of Houston teacher Noemi Dominguez.

The murder of elderly Texas widow Josephine Konvicka, who was killed with a grubbing hoe.

The murders of George Morber, shot in the head, and Carolyn Frederick, clubbed to death.

The last four of Resendiz's victims were murdered after Resendiz had been released by federal immigration officials — even though there were already warrants outstanding for his arrest.

[emphasis added]

So, in other words, you pull out one bad dude and use it to malign all illegal immigrants as crime-prone. Try again.

Here's a study done by the Urban Institute, funded by the Dept. of Justice. Here are some of the findings, more at the article of course:USSC [U.S. Sentencing Commission]

* The number of illegal aliens sentenced in federal courts increased by 167 percent , compared with 13 percent for citizens. The number of legal aliens declined by 18 percent over this period.

So? All that means is that the crime rate among illegal immigrants has probably gone up - it doesn't tell us anything about whether or not it is disproportionate, which was my whole argument.

* The share of defendants in federal courts who were illegal aliens rose from 4 percent to 11 percent while the share who were legal aliens declined from 12 percent to 9 percent.

This is more appropriate. Of course, we need a more sophisticated break-down - how many of these guys are people apprehended in and around the border area for smuggling and the like?

* The number of illegal aliens sentenced increased for 89 of the 94 federal district courts, for all major offense categories, and for all major country of citizenship groups [between 1991 and 1995].

That just means the rate has gone up. It says nothing about whether or not it is disproportionately large for illegal immigrants. The above point about the share of defendants in federal court would seem to indicate that they may be (the estimated size of the illegal immigrant population in the US is between 11 and 15 million, for a population of 303 million), but it needs to be broken down further.

SCAAP [State Criminal Alien Assistance Program]

* Mexico was the dominant country of origin among illegal alien state prisoners in Arizona, California, Texas, and Illinois. In New York, Florida, and New Jersey, illegal immigrants from the Caribbean and from Central and South America constituted the largest shares of illegal aliens in state prisons, although in these states no single country or country group dominated.

Not surprising, when you consider that those are the major origin countries for illegal immigrants living in those areas.

* The vast majority of illegal alien state prisoners entered the United States illegally, rather than entering the country legally and then remaining after their authorized period of stay had expired. Texas and California had the largest share of illegal aliens who entered without inspection—94–95 percent—while shares for Illinois and New Jersey were the lowest—85–86 percent.

Hardly surprising, when you consider what a tangle legal immigration can be.

* Types of offense committed differed by country of origin. Colombians and Dominicans were especially likely to have been imprisoned for drug-related offenses. Among Haitians and Nicaraguans, drug offenses were relatively uncommon.

But as I've mentioned, that doesn't represent whether or not they are more likely to be prone to commit crimes (aside from the crime of breaking immigration law) than the rest of the population who is native-born. That's what matters to me.

A report by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Study found 20 percent of fatal accidents involve at least one driver who lacks a valid license. In California, another study showed that those who have never held a valid license are about five times more likely to be involved in a fatal road accident than licensed drivers.

That's a nice little hat trick he tries to pull there, implying that the fact that 20% of fatal accidents involve a driver without a valid license. Of course, it says nothing about whether or not these are illegal aliens, since it is not as if no native-born person ever drives without a license.

The
"not integrating" arguement is NOT BS. Unlike other immigrants of the past, the ones from Mexico can and DO travel back and forth, removing incentives to assimilate.

When you have to get on a boat and make a long jouney to get here, and a long journey to get back, (weeks if not months as was before) you have a different mindset. Many consider it a seasonal commute, not a once in a lifetime trip.

And as I pointed out, that's bullshit, because their children and grandchildren (most of whom are born here in the US) do integrate and are fully American. That's been true for most immigrants, by the way - as I pointed out earlier, it's not as if, say, German immigrants got off the boat and immediately cast off their Germanness.

If you want to argue that, try something other than the Samuel Huntington Argument, which has no proof.

Who fucking cares what 3rd generation hispanics speak or do?

I was addressing the point about how the current immigrants are supposedly different from prior immigrants, and the claim that they don't assimilate that well.

[Count Chocula]

Die in a fire.

OFF TOPIC ADVISORY: Sorry, I don't live in Australia - the poor sods.

Guardsman, thanks for the remarks. I'm getting jammed up here and may not be able to reply until this evening, but I will.

[Illuminatus Primus]

More importantly, Guardsman, the alternative plan would involve much increased legal immigration, thereby allowing the immigrants to be managed above the table. Ones with criminal records would be denied. Resident immigrants committing significant crimes would be deported after serving their sentence. And furthermore, well-integrated, socially-managed immigration might be significantly less crime-ridden than an uncontrolled underclass (which pretty much forces them to be dependent on local rackets for protection and favors).

And "who cares what third generations" do? What, do you think every Italian or German learned English right off the boat? You're delusional. Generational advancement is what matters and how assimilation occurs. And I love that he thinks WORLD NUT DAILY is a legitimate source.

[Guardsman Bass]

That's true, IP. It's not as if I'm arguing for the status quo on illegal immigration, since if we could implement the reforms that have been suggested, it would bring a lot of the immigrants out into the open, where they could be monitored and deported if convicted of crimes.

And "who cares what third generations" do? What, do you think every Italian or German learned English right off the boat? You're delusional.

What's funny about this is that these type of arguments are age-old. Benjamin Franklin worried about whether the German immigrants would assimilate, and the Know Nothings later fought against immigration because they thought that those catholic immigrants from Ireland and later Southern Europe (and back then, it was an openly held opinion among many Americans that they - Italians, etc - were an inferior race) were just too different to really become Americans.

Die in a fire.

OFF TOPIC ADVISORY: Sorry, I don't live in Australia - the poor sods.

Guardsman, thanks for the remarks. I'm getting jammed up here and may not be able to reply until this evening, but I will.

That's fine. Just keep in mind that I was questioning whether illegal immigrants represent a disproportionate share of crime as a group (and by crime, I mean crimes other than the crimes associated with breaking immigrant law - they're obviously all guilty of that).

One question - are immigration-related charges brought up in the federal court system, or does INS have their own system? This seems to imply that they do get brought up in federal courts (particularly in the border states, where drug trafficking is really strong), but that usually the feds just deport them to their country of origin if they have no other outstanding criminal charges, barring exceptions where the person in question has tried to get in a significant number of times (at which point, they're tried for "illegal entry").


I brought that up because if they are, it would tend to skew their percentage of cases ending up in federal courts. It also wouldn't be a surprise; there has been much more of an effort in the past few years to go after and catch illegal immigrants, as well as enforce border security.

[erik_t]

Die in a fire.

OFF TOPIC ADVISORY: Sorry, I don't live in Australia - the poor sods.

Guardsman, thanks for the remarks. I'm getting jammed up here and may not be able to reply until this evening, but I will.

I'm sorry, did you or did you not ask what experience I had with illegal aliens? Does or does not living in southern Arizona constitute experience dealing with the consequences of illegal immigration? Do you or do you not enjoy removing all content from quotes so that you don't have to respond to it?

[Darth Wong]

Wow. Someone actually cited an article from WND: the biggest fundie retard whackjob loonie pseudo-news site on the Internet. You normally only see that site quoted by creationists.

[Bilbo]

Die in a fire.

This is acceptable posting?

[Bilbo]

Wow. Someone actually cited an article from WND: the biggest fundie retard whackjob loonie pseudo-news site on the Internet. You normally only see that site quoted by creationists.

So you are calling every figure and every official source in the article wrong? Or are you just painting with your normal wide stroke brush of bias?

[erik_t]

What is it with conservitards and snipping all content from a quote? Is it some kind of congenital defect?

[Bilbo]

What's funny about this is that these type of arguments are age-old. Benjamin Franklin worried about whether the German immigrants would assimilate, and the Know Nothings later fought against immigration because they thought that those catholic immigrants from Ireland and later Southern Europe (and back then, it was an openly held opinion among many Americans that they - Italians, etc - were an inferior race) were just too different to really become Americans.

Ben was afraid they would just transplant their culture here and not become Americans. Today the issue is not cultural assimilation, it is crime and how pervasive it is within the illegal alien community. I dont care what they do 3 or 4 generations from now. I care about how they make my country less safe TODAY.

[Havok]

Yeah, they got you on the Mexicans never assimilating bit. Its been a struggle to ever write on English on this board, despite being half-Mexican and generations removed from native-born ancestors.

I know I sure have a hard time with it. And I am only two generations removed from my illegal filthy border hoping scum Grandmother and Grandfather coming over and not assimilating and learning English, committing crimes and smuggling drugs. Oh wait.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

More importantly, Guardsman, the alternative plan would involve much increased legal immigration, thereby allowing the immigrants to be managed above the table. Ones with criminal records would be denied. Resident immigrants committing significant crimes would be deported after serving their sentence. And furthermore, well-integrated, socially-managed immigration might be significantly less crime-ridden than an uncontrolled underclass (which pretty much forces them to be dependent on local rackets for protection and favors).

And "who cares what third generations" do? What, do you think every Italian or German learned English right off the boat? You're delusional. Generational advancement is what matters and how assimilation occurs. And I love that he thinks WORLD NUT DAILY is a legitimate source.

German was the second most common language in the USA in the 1880s, with political campaigns being conducted in it and something like 12% of the country only speaking German, to the point that places like Milwaukee were damn close to German-language only. This continued right up until WW1, when massive repressions against Germans and lynchings of Germans and etc in response to pro-Entente sentiment caused the German community to mass abandon the German language to avoid further persecution.