Plekhanov wrote:I think riot police should be required by law to have large serial numbers printed on their riot gear with the suit issued to each officer recorded before each deployment to ensure that any officers assaulting and even murdering people can be identified from any footage captured of the event.
We tried that after some poor rioters was roughly handled and went crying to their media cheerleaders. It worked for about half a riot. The rioters were delighted at being able to single out individual officers for concentrated barrages that significantly improved their chances of doing serious damage.
Those sound like some uncommonly well organised and accurate rioters, what were they the officers training corp cricket club or something?
Needless to say any officer with an ounce of common sence taped over their numbers in a hurry.
And of course not wanting to be held accountable for their actions wasn't behind this at all, it was due to a real and reasonable fear of highly organised rioters ability to target and accurately direct whatever missiles come to hand at specific officers
Just so people know, several officers came forward:
If they'd done that before lying through their teeth and being caught in their lies by videos and photos turning up that might be somewhat more impressive.
Another video showing the attack from a different angle has come to light which reveals it to have been more violent than it appeared on the initial video, the officer really lays into him with the baton before pushing him over.
A video of the aftermath has also been released which shows that initial police claims that they were subject to a barrage of missiles whilst trying to treat Mr Tomlinson were less than honest.
Plekhanov wrote:
Those sound like some uncommonly well organised and accurate rioters, what were they the officers training corp cricket club or something?
Roiters can be very well organized to the point of having teams of people who attempt to identify and declare plain clothes police who are among the crowd.
And of course not wanting to be held accountable for their actions wasn't behind this at all, it was due to a real and reasonable fear of highly organised rioters ability to target and accurately direct whatever missiles come to hand at specific officers
Look Plekhanov, just because you haven't heard of this or you find it extreme doesn't mean it does not happen. The fact of the matter is that it does happen in nearly every major protest in first world countries. However, I'll back you and say it is not acceptable to remove the means of identification off of police. What should happen is any officer that has been singled out should be removed from the line and replaced with a reserve or a secondary numbering system could come into play.
More to the point there is a simple workaround for preventing civilians from IDing particular policemen besides simply rotation those on riot duty nothing says the same cop has to have the same Riot ID number, it could be something that's rotated once a month. Those visibility vests are one size fits all for the most part, stick the money in for 2x vests per officer, then have the officers rotate which two vests they use if called out as riot cops. If the ID number on the vests is tied up to the actual officers badge number month to month the issue becomes moot.
Lets keep this in mind, there are at present eight videos of this incident, three which were semi-professional quality and the other five cell phone videos where useful for catching angles the good videos did not get. Expect this to continue and be the standard in all first world countries, anytime there is a public disturbance there will be massive videotaping of it b both the media, interdependent journalists, amateur journalists and people with cell phone cameras turning it on become something happens in front of them.
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Kamakazie Sith wrote:Roiters can be very well organized to the point of having teams of people who attempt to identify and declare plain clothes police who are among the crowd.
Attempting to spot people in the corwd who look out of place is a much simpler task than somehow specifying individual targets amongst the riot squads and coordinating accurate fire upon them.
Look Plekhanov, just because you haven't heard of this or you find it extreme doesn't mean it does not happen. The fact of the matter is that it does happen in nearly every major protest in first world countries.
In that case then it should be very easy to find evidence of this happening then shouldn't it? All the footage I've ever seen of riot involves missiles being thrown in the general direction of the police which is exactly what you'd expect from such a chaotic situation with combatants on one side who are hardly intensively drilled or coherently led, if you have evidence to the contrary by all means present it.
Plekhanov wrote:
Attempting to spot people in the corwd who look out of place is a much simpler task than somehow specifying individual targets amongst the riot squads and coordinating accurate fire upon them.
Not really. It requires a plan and communication. You act like rioters are always a bunch of random stupid monkeys. Sometimes they are part of groups that plan, train, and prepare for methods police use to suppress riots. In fact, I'd say it's just as simple as spotting plain clothes cops.
In that case then it should be very easy to find evidence of this happening then shouldn't it? All the footage I've ever seen of riot involves missiles being thrown in the general direction of the police which is exactly what you'd expect from such a chaotic situation with combatants on one side who are hardly intensively drilled or coherently led, if you have evidence to the contrary by all means present it.
Why would you think the evidence would be easy to find? You're assuming that it will be easy to find. You're not going to see the police videos because they try not to air those on youtube, and not many people with cameras are going to be looking for a concentrated effort by rioters to injure specific officers.
Plekhanov wrote:Those sound like some uncommonly well organised and accurate rioters, what were they the officers training corp cricket club or something?
This might come as a chock to you but rioters ARE well organized, embarassingly often better organized than the police it seems. As for how you coordinate an attack that is very easy. Once you have identified your victim you just call out the ID number and everyone with a rock ready to throw and a line of sight participates.
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Plekhanov: While holding police to account, particularly during incidents when it may be relatively easy to escalate without accountability, is a noble and necessary action, and this case in London appears to be open and shut, do remember that many people self-select to be at "ground zero" in a riot, and that some fraction of those may be provacteurs arriving with the intent to foment violence and perpetrate, at minimum, property damage. The case-in-point? So-called "black blocks," particularly in Seattle in 1999.
Nobody is defending the idea that the police officers in this London incident acted appropriately, or even that those who protest should "expect" harsh treatment, because "that's what you get." Nonetheless, the police officers that are called out for riot duty aren't the scum of the Earth. It isn't hard to understand why protestors despise riot cops. By the same token, having Molotov cocktails and bricks hurled at one is no walk in the park. Accepting that police have legitimate desire to avoid personal harm isn't dismissing wrongdoing.
This to me looks like an unprovoked attack by a protestor who obviously came armed for combat. If you watch closely in the seconds right before the strike, the officer's posture appears to indicate that he is holding the line with his baton crossed in front of his body. The protestor then attacks during a surge. The police do not escalate.
Axis Kast, it would completely blow Plekhanov's world to admit that even a single protestor might use violence or be anything but a virtuous, upstanding citizen peacefully standing up for his or her rights. You might as well try and convince a creationist that the bible isn't infallible
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The second post-mortem on Ian Tomlinson has been carried out and the coroner's preliminary conclusion is that it was a haemorrhage which caused his death, the officer who attacked and pushed him has been questioned on charges of manslaughter.
BBC wrote:A policeman has been interviewed under caution on suspicion of manslaughter after new tests overturned the cause of a newspaper-seller's death.
Ian Tomlinson, 47, was struck and pushed over by a police officer during G20 protests on 1 April in the City.
Now a fresh post-mortem examination has found he died of abdominal bleeding, not a heart attack, as first thought.
Lawyers for the family said the new post-mortem test raised the likelihood of a manslaughter charge.
In its statement, the Coroner's Court said the inquest had looked at the first post-mortem examination carried out after Mr Tomlinson collapsed and died on the evening of 1 April.
That examination, carried out by Dr Freddy Patel, concluded Mr Tomlinson had diseased heart and liver and a substantial amount of blood in the abdominal cavity.
"His provisional interpretation of his findings was that the cause of death was coronary artery disease," said the statement.
"A subsequent post-mortem examination was conducted by another consultant forensic pathologist, Dr Nat Cary, instructed by the IPCC and by solicitors acting for the family of the late Mr Tomlinson.
"Dr Cary's opinion is that the cause of death was abdominal haemorrhage. The cause of the haemorrhage remains to be ascertained.
"Dr Cary accepts that there is evidence of coronary atherosclerosis but states that in his opinion its nature and extent is unlikely to have contributed to the cause of death."
The statement concluded that both the opinions remained provisional and subject to further investigations and tests.
In a response, the Independent Police Complaints Commission said: "Following the initial results of the second post mortem, a Metropolitan police officer has been interviewed under caution for the offence of manslaughter as part of an ongoing inquiry into the death of Ian Tomlinson."
Family reaction
Paul King, Mr Tomlinson's step-son, said "First we were told that there had been no contact with the police, then we were told that he died of a heart attack.
Mr Tomlinson's step-son says he hopes the "full truth will come out in the end"
"Now we know that he was violently assaulted by a police officer and died from internal bleeding. As time goes on we hope that the full truth about how Ian died will be made known."
Jules Carey of Tuckers, the family's solicitor, said the family had known about the results of the second post-mortem for the past week - but had reluctantly agreed to remain silent while the IPCC continued its investigations.
"The findings of Dr Nat Cary significantly increase the likelihood that the officer will now face the more serious charge of manslaughter," said Mr Carey.
"The IPCC opposed the disclosure of Dr Cary's findings until they satisfied themselves that it would not prejudice their investigation of the officer.
"It is of some comfort to the family that the record is now being put straight, but they hope that the IPCC investigation will be expedited and thorough, and that there will be a prompt referral to the CPS for charge," he added.
"Sincere regret"
The mayor of London, Boris Johnson, said his first thoughts were with Mr Tomlinson's family.
He added: "No one can doubt that the Metropolitan Police faced a huge challenge in securing the G20 summit.
"But there must now be a fast and transparent conclusion to the IPCC investigation, with the full and urgent co-operation of all involved."
The IPCC launched their investigation into Mr Tomlinson's death after video footage revealed the officer's contact with Mr Tomlinson, despite earlier reports to the contrary.
The officer involved has been suspended from duty.
The news came as attention remained focussed on the tactics used by Metropolitan Police officers who handled the G20 protests on April 1 and 2.
Another officer from the force's Territorial Support Group has also been suspended after a woman alleged she was struck during a protest held to mark Mr Tomlinson's death.
Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson has called in the Inspectorate of Constabularies to look at policing tactics on the day and how to handle future large protests.
In a statement, the Metropolitan Police said it wished to reiterate its "sincere regret" over Mr Tomlinson's death but would not comment on the post-mortem while the IPCC continued its investigations.
Well it's a bit more clear cut that the earlier assault is responsible for his death, not sure if this will progress to a criminal trial or if the coroner has to rule it unlawful death.
Without knowing what sort of abdominal bleeding, and how long he was bleeding for we can't make that judgement just yet.
A doctor on another board I visit put forward that the disorientation that lead to his unusual behaviour could be because he already had a perforated ulcer.
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Yeah, I am kinda wondering about the same thing. Since when is walking around with your hands in your pockets a sign of unusual behavior?
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He's seen on camera stumbling around in front of a Riot vehicle unable/unwilling to get out of the way depending on how you look at it an hour before this incident took place.
Member of the Unremarkables Just because you're god, it doesn't mean you can treat people that way : - My girlfriend Evil Brit Conspiracy - Insignificant guy
Thanas wrote:Yeah, I am kinda wondering about the same thing. Since when is walking around with your hands in your pockets a sign of unusual behavior?
It's not. Until you add some police officers who are probably giving commands. If they were giving him commands and he was walking away from them with his hands in his pockets and not obeying their commands then that is a serious red flag. Still doesn't justify escalating to that level of force.
