The High Cost of Poverty

[SirNitram]

How often do people imagine that those living beneath the poverty level have a hundred or two to use?

Seriously, folks, yes, you can score a good number of things to ease the pain with a spare hundred.. But unless you've GOT that hundred, tough shit. This is a common enough problem that it received a mention in a Prachett novel, where Vimes noted how a good pair of boots will last for YEARS... But since he never had the money for them all at once, he had to get cheap boots, which wore out after a few months.

It's that principle at work. And no anecdotes needed: Cheap shit wears out fast. So anyone who can only afford the cheap shit winds up paying more over time, because it all wears out. Shit, these days it extends to food: The cheapest calories are the most unhealthy.

[Master of Ossus]

@ Starglider: I saw a study, once, where they compared the costs of various durable goods (appliances, furniture, etc.) in lower-class and middle and upper-class neighborhoods. It basically concluded that if you go shopping in a poor neighborhood you're paying somewhere around 30-45% more for the same good. So they went back and tried to see what was going on, and they found that the shopowners in those areas weren't generating higher profits than stores in other areas: it was just that the cost of doing business was so much higher around there.

No one is more than 30 minutes' walk from a supermarket in the US, either, but the costs of buying goods really are higher in bad neighborhoods because the company's costs are so much higher.

[Master of Ossus]

It's that principle at work. And no anecdotes needed: Cheap shit wears out fast. So anyone who can only afford the cheap shit winds up paying more over time, because it all wears out.

Except, unlike boots, used appliances and such are durable, too, and there's a good market for them.

Shit, these days it extends to food: The cheapest calories are the most unhealthy.

Nonsense. The most convenient calories are the most unhealthy ones. You can buy a LOT of rice for the price of a Big Mac (almost a pound, in fact, for a buck).

[Starglider]

How often do people imagine that those living beneath the poverty level have a hundred or two to use?

It seems extremely unlikely to me that someone's income is just enough for them to survive for years on end, without ever having any surplus to save (or reduce debt) or deficit that would send them into eventual bankruptcy. In actual fact of course this is very rare. What happens is that when people get a spare $10 or $20 instead of saving it they blow it on junk food or cola or beer or cigarettes or whatever. It's understandable but not acceptable (incidentally if you are complaining about never being able to afford anything and still smoking and/or drinking regularly, I officially have zero sympathy for you).

[SirNitram]

It's that principle at work. And no anecdotes needed: Cheap shit wears out fast. So anyone who can only afford the cheap shit winds up paying more over time, because it all wears out.

Except, unlike boots, used appliances and such are durable, too, and there's a good market for them.

Trust a person who swears by(And often at) used appliances: Caveat Emptor is the word of the day there. Even the best places can be full of things which will manage a week before disgorging unpleasant smoke. I know this because I bought used appliances when I lived within an hour of NYC on the Conneticut coast too, and still got one or two which just up and died fast.

Shit, these days it extends to food: The cheapest calories are the most unhealthy.

Nonsense. The most convenient calories are the most unhealthy ones. You can buy a LOT of rice for the price of a Big Mac (almost a pound, in fact, for a buck).

Conceded, though I'm not sure eating exclusively things like rice is going to be good for your health(And if your health goes downhill, well, then the entire system fucks you HARDER...).

[SirNitram]

(incidentally if you are complaining about never being able to afford anything and still smoking and/or drinking regularly, I officially have zero sympathy for you).

I can neither smoke nor drink and frankly never could. I break out into coughing fits downwind of smokers and my liver has already begun collapsing. Neither is a big secret here. So no.

And yes, people can and do scrap by day to day and never have anything left. Because while they might squirrel away a bit each month, life happens. Emergencies, doctor visits, replacing things, and so forth, still come along and you can find yourself broke again.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

I'm fortunate enough to own a car, which I need to do my job (I deliver pizzas, yeah its a chimp job but I'm glad to have it, since I like to eat food and sleep indoors) but it doesn't make it any easier to save up any money, with gas prices being the way they are. I currently drive a '88 Ford Bronco, which I picked up for about $400 last summer because I need some form of transportation. Since then I was able to convince my father to loan me two thousand dollars which I proceeded to use to get ripped off on a '94 Nissan Maxima, thinking I'd be able to get rid of the Ford and use the comparitavely gas-sipping Nissan for work. This would have worked well, except that the Nissan quickly developed a whole list of expensive problems and had to be taken off the road. So now I'm stuck with the Bronco which gets about 12-16 miles to the gallon, but makes up for it by being indestructable. I'd love to get rid of the Nissan, but It's hard to sell a fifteen year old car which needs (among other things) a new transmission.

[Starglider]

(incidentally if you are complaining about never being able to afford anything and still smoking and/or drinking regularly, I officially have zero sympathy for you).

I can neither smoke nor drink and frankly never could. I break out into coughing fits downwind of smokers and my liver has already begun collapsing. Neither is a big secret here. So no.

That wasn't directed at you personally. I am living in a fairly poor area ATM and there are lots of chain-smoking welfare moms around.

And yes, people can and do scrap by day to day and never have anything left. Because while they might squirrel away a bit each month, life happens. Emergencies, doctor visits, replacing things, and so forth, still come along and you can find yourself broke again.

Regardless of how irregular the expenses are, it is still highly unlikely that income will exactly match outgoings over many years unless something is expanding to soak up extra money as and when it becomes available. Exactly what kind of discretionary spending is not a luxury? Though to be fair, a lot of child welfare spending is discretionary but justifiable.

[Master of Ossus]

Trust a person who swears by(And often at) used appliances: Caveat Emptor is the word of the day there. Even the best places can be full of things which will manage a week before disgorging unpleasant smoke. I know this because I bought used appliances when I lived within an hour of NYC on the Conneticut coast too, and still got one or two which just up and died fast.

I don't dispute your statement, but that can happen with new appliances, too. In fact, almost all electronic goods follow a Weibull distribution of failure, such that they're most likely to break in the first few hours or weeks of operation before getting a more-or-less constant rate of breakdowns.

Conceded, though I'm not sure eating exclusively things like rice is going to be good for your health(And if your health goes downhill, well, then the entire system fucks you HARDER...).

Well, eating Big Macs every day probably isn't great for your health, either. I think there was a movie about that.

It's fair enough to say that there are a lot of unhealthy calories out there, though, and they are quite convenient both for stores and for people since they tend to be preserved, processed, and packaged.

[Darth Wong]

How often do people imagine that those living beneath the poverty level have a hundred or two to use?

It seems extremely unlikely to me that someone's income is just enough for them to survive for years on end, without ever having any surplus to save (or reduce debt) or deficit that would send them into eventual bankruptcy. In actual fact of course this is very rare. What happens is that when people get a spare $10 or $20 instead of saving it they blow it on junk food or cola or beer or cigarettes or whatever. It's understandable but not acceptable (incidentally if you are complaining about never being able to afford anything and still smoking and/or drinking regularly, I officially have zero sympathy for you).

People find ways to spend money while convincing themselves that they're being thrifty. For example, my chronically impoverished brother in law brags about how he finds ways to save money on his SCA activities. Well that's great, but technically speaking, you would save even more money if you didn't do those activities at all.

It reminds me of the guys who think they're thrifty because they buy the cheap beer. I believe that there really are people out there who are doing everything right and still can't make ends meet, but the ones I've personally met tend to be of the "we don't realize how much money we're actually wasting" variety.

[Starglider]

Basic mechanical skills are a huge money saver when it comes to both appliances and cars. I've fixed both with parts salvaged from junkyards. I've fixed friend's washing machines and toasters with just a soldering iron and new fuses. Clutch, belt, battery, pump, bulb, oil replacements - all of these you can easily do yourself, particularly on old vehicles and appliances. These are skills you can definitely learn from some library books and personal experimentation, though I admit that a decent set of tools is a capital investment.

[SirNitram]

Trust a person who swears by(And often at) used appliances: Caveat Emptor is the word of the day there. Even the best places can be full of things which will manage a week before disgorging unpleasant smoke. I know this because I bought used appliances when I lived within an hour of NYC on the Conneticut coast too, and still got one or two which just up and died fast.

I don't dispute your statement, but that can happen with new appliances, too. In fact, almost all electronic goods follow a Weibull distribution of failure, such that they're most likely to break in the first few hours or weeks of operation before getting a more-or-less constant rate of breakdowns.

Do you have links or the like for any of that? I'd love to read up, though I'm pretty certain you're right.

Conceded, though I'm not sure eating exclusively things like rice is going to be good for your health(And if your health goes downhill, well, then the entire system fucks you HARDER...).

Well, eating Big Macs every day probably isn't great for your health, either. I think there was a movie about that.

It's fair enough to say that there are a lot of unhealthy calories out there, though, and they are quite convenient both for stores and for people since they tend to be preserved, processed, and packaged.

The statement was more to reflect you weren't going to be getting good meat, fruits, vegetables, and dairy on the cheap. If you're lucky, there's a farmers market or something and you can, but for the majority that's not realistic. Health is the problem: The system does not work for those in poverty, as has been discussed before, and as a result things which contribute to poor health hitting poor communities will make the whole thing spiral.

[Darth Wong]

How much do welfare recipients actually get?

[Broomstick]

Things are more expensive when they are located within a city? SHOCKING!

But most social services are distributed through cities - the rural poor can be even worse off than the urban poor despite lower rents.

Poor people are uneducated and fall for scams? SHOCKING!

And some of us poor people actually have college educations and a four-year degree from an accredited college but have been rendered obsolete in the global marketplace for one reason or another and are now floundering.

Housing prices are cheaper in bad neighborhoods? SHOCKING!

Of course, your chances of being mugged, robbed, shot, beaten, or raped is also higher in bad neighborhoods - what you save in rent may well be spent on additional medical care, which will really such if you're one of the "working poor" and have access to neither Medicaid nor actual health insurance.

High prices for groceries in bad neighborhoods. Well unless they are going force WalMart, Kroger etc to set up shop in a risky neighborhood I don't see how they can get at this one.

Actually, some cities, such as Chicago have barred WalMart from opening a store within their limits. Why there are or are not grocery stores in a neighborhood can be more complex than just cost of real estate and risk to employees.

Increased food stamps could help as could a bonus with redeemed food stamps in certain locales to make operating in those areas more profitable/ more likely to survive but the convenience of a corner store requires a premium in expense, the real estate is more valuable than some plot in the suburbs and any business there will have to charge more for the same things to survive.

Yes, I could agree with increasing food stamp allotments. Currently the budget is $25/week for an adult - that is marginal these days, even with bargain prices. In a true city that's just not enough, hence the popularity of food pantries.

Not owning your own washer/dryer. Well, shit, I guess conveniences are expensive huh? Can they afford half of a washer and dryer? Maybe have some friends in the neighborhood that want to get together for one? Nope? Well at least it isn't washing clothes in the river with rocks and a bar of soap. Hopefully you realize that the 2 hours waiting can actually be spent constructively and are reading a book to give you some marketable skills, that's what you're doing right? Watching soap operas instead? Idiot.

Obviously, you have never used an urban laundromat in your life. I have. I've been in them when fights have broken out - fistfights, throwing of liquid bleach, people hitting each other with heavy blunt objects... People yell, swear, scream, you name it. They get drunk or high or come in the way and annoy the shit out of the other people there. You can have your clothes stolen if you aren't keeping a close eye on them. Not only is the environment very difficult to read/study/concentrate in, but failure to maintain an awareness of your surroundings can be actually hazardous.

Thank goodness I've found a relatively quiet, sedate laundromat to use these last few years, but just ask my husband - I'm not an easily rattled person but there were times I used to come home from doing the laundry shaking or even crying. For awhile we'd go together for reasons of safety. I'm so glad we no longer live in that neighborhood, but people who haven't had to deal with this really have no conception of just how awful going to a laundromat can be when you live in a bad neighborhood. At least I was never there when the place was robbed - but in my old Chicago neighborhood the laundromats WERE robbed, at gunpoint, and they didn't just take the quarters out of the machines, they made the customers hand over their valuables, too.

Um... what was that about studying while doing your laundry....?

Not owning a car? Well, increasing public transit spending might increase the frequency of bus lanes but they will still not be able to afford a car and honestly we want the people that can't afford a car to be using the bus instead of adding more traffic to the already chock full highways.

In most places in the US if you don't own a car you don't get a job. Which makes for a very ugly catch-22, doesn't it? Most places don't have mass transit. It's not a matter of "increasing" bus lanes - there are no bus lanes AT ALL.

As for the working alot of hours and not making much money could that be in any way related to their lack of marketable skills? Definitely not, it must be the man just fucking them over and over. Their plight is completely irreversible if you are poor you can never gain the skills necessary to improve your situation because you have all this IDLE TIME waiting on the bus and your laundry. FUCK if only there was something constructive they could do while sitting on their poor hands being poor.

I'm sorry if I didn't spend every moment on a city bus or in a laundromat studying my eyeballs out but frankly, some of the places I traveled through as a poor person in a big city it wasn't safe to lose yourself in a book - you had to stay alert if you wanted to get from point A to point B safely. Or don't you understand what a "bad neighborhood" is? When I worked across the street from a Chicago housing project and could hear gunfire from my desk at work... oh, yeah, I could really afford to not pay attention to my surroundings while riding the bus in THAT neighborhood.

Of course, maybe you can discount all that because I am poor again - but there were a good 15-20 years when I wasn't poor and was very much middle class. Oh, wait, my tale is just a string of anecdotes, too. Maybe I'm just deluded or something. Maybe the difference is that I never forgot what a sucking hellhole poverty was while living in the big city.

Yes, the poor can be their own worst enemy, but frankly, Krauser, your post displays some real insensitivity and ignorance regarding what poverty in America really is like. I'm more than willing to discuss solutions and how to bootstrap oneself up from the unwashed masses - hell, I did it once and I'm having a go at doing it again, I think I know something about it - but I will not tolerate your belittling people when you have zero conception of what living in a bad urban neighborhood is like. Among other things, it can be fucking dangerous. My personal safety in the here and now takes precedence over studying, anything else is foolish at best.

[Broomstick]

I'm baffled at the concept of needing a driver's license of all things to open an account. I can understand perfectly that the banks need to have some form of ID and that a license is the closest they'll get, but tying the ability operate a motor vehicle to virtually essential services seems asinine. What do the disabled do? Do they just issue driver's licenses to the blind so they can operate in society or are they SOL?

The driver's license is the default ID in the US, issued by your state of residence. Those unable to drive, or who never learned, are issued ID cards by the state of residence that are nearly identical to a driver's license except that they grant no driving privileges.

The BIG problem is that faced by the homeless - if you don't have an address you don't get a license or ID card. So a person paralyzed from the neck down who lives in an apartment can get a legal ID card, but an able-bodied homeless person can't.

[SirNitram]

How much do welfare recipients actually get?

Best Case Scenario: 900 for a family of four(300 for a single person), and 500(200 for single) in food stamps. This does not include expenses to continually deliver budgets, disclosures, and so forth(hope you could afford your kids shots, or your simply flatly rejected at the beginning).

You also have to provide evidence you're looking for gainful employment. How often varies; when I was on it, I had to show up weekly with a list of places I had enquired, which would be called. Pray you were memorable enough and that your note didn't enter the circle file(Trash bin).

The two parts which do not fail outrageously are SSI, which just wants copies of your pay stubs(If you get them, if you're out of work, send nothing, but they will check up on you) mailed monthly, and state programs for discounted/subsidized utilities. At most, yearly looks at your earnings for being within the range, and if you're on SSI, they'll do that part of the paperwork(Or perhaps the local office is simply populated by minor saints).

There's also the occasional group which promotes getting you into work, and they'll do two things: Send you word of work you can do that they can hook you up with(Just provide contact info), and a stipend for bus fair(The list of people to call again, and it's not much, but when you're stretched to the limit, it's SOMETHING.).

[Broomstick]

That's a good option as well. If you actually read my post you would see that foodstamps was the second fucking thing I said. Allowing conveniece stores to redeem their food stamps for more than the discount stores would be easy to implement with a simple unique identifying stamp for the food stamps before they can be turned in for cash. That would be able to accomplish both at once.

Krauser, you stupid cunt - it's been YEARS since "food stamps" were actually paper. Can you at least TRY to doublecheck the dribble coming out of your mouth? "Foodstamps" is actually a plastic card now, like a debit or credit card. This was done in part to reduce fraud but it also makes those using them stand out less from everyone else in line at the supermarket. I'm not entirely conversant with the details of how they work these days but you, sir, are stuck in the 1980's in regards to these.

[Themightytom]

The two parts which do not fail outrageously are SSI, which just wants copies of your pay stubs(If you get them, if you're out of work, send nothing, but they will check up on you) mailed monthly, and state programs for discounted/subsidized utilities. At most, yearly looks at your earnings for being within the range, and if you're on SSI, they'll do that part of the paperwork(Or perhaps the local office is simply populated by minor saints).

There's also the occasional group which promotes getting you into work, and they'll do two things: Send you word of work you can do that they can hook you up with(Just provide contact info), and a stipend for bus fair(The list of people to call again, and it's not much, but when you're stretched to the limit, it's SOMETHING.).

You can make up to 900 a month while recieving SSI or SSDI and it isn't consiered "gainful employment" even if you are gainfully employed you have like 9 consecutive months before you are ineligible, or 9 months out of 13, I forget the break down but its not particularly
intuitive.

Welfare is at least in my area either easy to get and fast, or a continually recurring cycle of not being able to contact a live person to schedule an appointment, and then having to restart your application because you didn't get an appointment. The fuckers also don't give any to people in a homeless shelter because if they are in a shelter, they are not "homeless" The best thing about welfare is really the childcare assistance because at least it becomes possible to look for work or even to apply for services. Then again, city welfare has a rule that no children are allowed to appointments to apply for childcare. siiiiiiiiiigh.

[

The give out EBT cards. And since every mom and pop store doesn't actually use a bar code scanner, stores can sellw ahtever they want and debit the EBT card. lately they ahve been letting people make cash withdrawals from the EBT card too, and that is going over juuuuuust great. :-/

[Broomstick]

Sorry, but I'm with the heartless conservatives on the cheque-cashing stupidity:

You ask him why he didn't just go to a bank. But his story is as complicated as the various reasons people find themselves in poverty and in need of a check-cashing joint. He says he lost his driver's license and now his regular bank "won't recognize me as a human. That's why I had to come here. It's a rip-off, but it's like a convenience store. You pay for the convenience."

First, he's full of shit. My 13 year old son has a bank account. I had a bank account when I was a kid. Since when do you need a driver's license to have a bank account? That sounds like the guy is just trying to justify his own laziness and stupidity: the last line is where he shows a bit of honesty and admits he's willingly paying those exorbitant cheque-cashing fees because it's just more convenient. In short, he's a lazy short-sighted moron.

This is true bullshit - you don't need a driver's license to have a bank account. You DO need a valid form of ID, but even in the US you can get one that's not a driver's license. A lot of poor, however, have no family history of bank use which is to their detriment. At one time banks really didn't build branches in poor neighborhoods, and they do often charge fees to patrons with low balances and there are fees for bouncing checks which can be problems, but ATM's and bank branches in grocery stores are ubiquitous now. There is the problem of banks and ATM's being robbed more often in some neighborhoods than others. Also, major banks don't give a fuck about small account holders. Nonetheless, it IS possible for poor people to get bank accounts. In my area they've been trying to educate people about that, getting them bank accounts or into credit unions instead of utilizing payday loans and check cashing services (Chicago has a long history of "currency exchanges" that have historically been used for check cashing and bill paying, but the fees are much, much lower than those found in payday loan stores. The currency exchanges also sell (or used to) mass transit fares, provide fax and copy services, many have public notaries, and otherwise provide a number of services that are useful to the communities they are in. They are also heavily regulated)

[Darth Wong]

The statement was more to reflect you weren't going to be getting good meat, fruits, vegetables, and dairy on the cheap.

Ignorance plays a part here: the average American thinks that he needs to eat a healthy serving of meat every single day in order to be healthy. This is quite simply false. People in many parts of the world can stretch a typical American's daily intake of meat to feed themselves for a week. Americans are also conditioned to similarly over-consume dairy products, often to the detriment of their health.

Fruits and vegetables aren't that expensive: I can buy a kilogram of Bok Choy and a kilogram of Ontario-grown apples for $3 apiece. Of course, groceries are a lot more expensive if people stupidly buy a lot of crap. Two bags of chips would cost just as much as a kilogram of apples and a kilogram of Bok Choy together. And quite frankly, I see a lot of welfare people buying chips.

[Master of Ossus]

Best Case Scenario: 900 for a family of four(300 for a single person), and 500(200 for single) in food stamps. This does not include expenses to continually deliver budgets, disclosures, and so forth(hope you could afford your kids shots, or your simply flatly rejected at the beginning).

It depends on the state, actually. California (which, I believe, is the most generous state but it might just be one of the most generous ones) pays close to $700 per month for a single filer, with more for people who are disabled or who have to support a child or children and for some other things.

[Themightytom]

The statement was more to reflect you weren't going to be getting good meat, fruits, vegetables, and dairy on the cheap.

Ignorance plays a part here: the average American thinks that he needs to eat a healthy serving of meat every single day in order to be healthy. This is quite simply false. People in many parts of the world can stretch a typical American's daily intake of meat to feed themselves for a week. Americans are also conditioned to similarly over-consume dairy products, often to the detriment of their health.

Fruits and vegetables aren't that expensive: I can buy a kilogram of Bok Choy and a kilogram of Ontario-grown apples for $3 apiece. Of course, groceries are a lot more expensive if people stupidly buy a lot of crap. Two bags of chips would cost just as much as a kilogram of apples and a kilogram of Bok Choy together. And quite frankly, I see a lot of welfare people buying chips.

How many inner city convenience stores carry apples??

[Broomstick]

Don't forget there exist the opportunity to pool money among the family or to use the facilities of parents/grandparents. More options are open than simply laundromat or nothing.

Yeah, that helps a lot seeing as my nearest relative is 400 miles away....

Mind you, my current laundromat is actually a nice place, and there's even an informal job information exchange going on there these days, but it's NOT typical!

Go to a different laundromat if that one is too busy or simply get books on tape from the library. Hell books on tape to learn a new language would be great especially if you are an immigrant with poor english speaking skills.

Books on tape in a laudromat? Do you have any idea how fucking NOISY the average laundromat is? And that's without people screaming insults at each other.

[Darth Wong]

The statement was more to reflect you weren't going to be getting good meat, fruits, vegetables, and dairy on the cheap.

Ignorance plays a part here: the average American thinks that he needs to eat a healthy serving of meat every single day in order to be healthy. This is quite simply false. People in many parts of the world can stretch a typical American's daily intake of meat to feed themselves for a week. Americans are also conditioned to similarly over-consume dairy products, often to the detriment of their health.

Fruits and vegetables aren't that expensive: I can buy a kilogram of Bok Choy and a kilogram of Ontario-grown apples for $3 apiece. Of course, groceries are a lot more expensive if people stupidly buy a lot of crap. Two bags of chips would cost just as much as a kilogram of apples and a kilogram of Bok Choy together. And quite frankly, I see a lot of welfare people buying chips.

How many inner city convenience stores carry apples??

In Toronto? Plenty. But our inner-city neighbourhoods aren't the kind of nightmarish shitholes that yours are.

[SirNitram]

The statement was more to reflect you weren't going to be getting good meat, fruits, vegetables, and dairy on the cheap.

Ignorance plays a part here: the average American thinks that he needs to eat a healthy serving of meat every single day in order to be healthy. This is quite simply false. People in many parts of the world can stretch a typical American's daily intake of meat to feed themselves for a week. Americans are also conditioned to similarly over-consume dairy products, often to the detriment of their health.

Fruits and vegetables aren't that expensive: I can buy a kilogram of Bok Choy and a kilogram of Ontario-grown apples for $3 apiece. Of course, groceries are a lot more expensive if people stupidly buy a lot of crap. Two bags of chips would cost just as much as a kilogram of apples and a kilogram of Bok Choy together. And quite frankly, I see a lot of welfare people buying chips.

Prices for fruits and vegetables vary alot; around here you can get them reliably on the cheap, but god help you in the Northeast if you were poor, because you weren't getting anything decent. But it's true; alot of poor people are ignorant and thus make very poor choices. I'm more trying to note that alot of costs come into play either way. I won't deny that being smart helps; being clever as fuck is why Tev and I are still below poverty line and still have a surplus monthly(And a washer and dryer, and an affordable, good mileage car, a kitchen that can cook on the cheap, and perhaps most importantly, an apartment which is NOT an attic with leaking gas mains and is near the bus line, the hospital, a grocery store with fruits, vegetables, and other such solid things..). But that's also thanks to living in a low cost-of-living state with federally-pegged Disability assistance.