Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by aerius »

Ma Deuce wrote:
SirNitram wrote:As an avowed Pedestrian And Mass Transitter, my knowledge of yanking it into neutral on this situation is limited. It'd halt the engine's push on it, I know that.. I also vaguely remember this is a way to wreck your transmission, which is also an excellent way to ensure a stop, when bits start grinding together.
That's what would happen if the transmission shifted into Reverse or Park while moving forward, but many modern automatics have interlocks to prevent that from happening.
My 2000 Malibu either doesn't have one or it doesn't work at parking lot speeds. I once went to back into a space before the car had come to a full stop and the shift to reverse gave the car a nice jolt. Doesn't work for Park either since I've also gone from reverse to park before coming to a full stop, I did that one on ice to minimize the shock to the drivetrain in case the transmission let me do the shift, which it did.
That seems to defeat the point of having a keyless ignition. Leave it to BMW to come up with something like that.
Well, they came up with iDrive, after that I'm not surprised by any degree of stupid that they manage to stuff into their cars.
Broomstick wrote:I just don't buy the idea that simply making everyone drive manual transmissions (barring those who can't due to disability) is going to automatically make everyone a better driver, because I know some real dumbfucks who drive "sticks" (as we call them around here) or that automatic transmissions are somehow generating bad drivers. You can be a good or bad driver with either sort of transmission, the root of the problem is fucking idiots driving cars around. That should be remedied by education and by withdrawing driving privileges from those too stubborn or stupid to safely operate a motor vehicle.
Yup. Education and going back to proper design and engineering practices in the cars. Get rid of the stupid buttons & electronic overrides and make sure the cars do what the drivers tell them to do right away. If it blows the engine or grenades the transmission so be it. I don't want a friggen HAL 9000 telling me how to drive my car. "Dave, what are you doing? Why are you shifting to neutral Dave? No Dave, we're staying in Drive. I want to go faster Dave, I'm turning off the brakes."
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Havok »

Broomstick wrote:I just don't buy the idea that simply making everyone drive manual transmissions (barring those who can't due to disability) is going to automatically make everyone a better driver, because I know some real dumbfucks who drive "sticks" (as we call them around here) or that automatic transmissions are somehow generating bad drivers. You can be a good or bad driver with either sort of transmission, the root of the problem is fucking idiots driving cars around. That should be remedied by education and by withdrawing driving privileges from those too stubborn or stupid to safely operate a motor vehicle.
It won't produce better drivers, but it would produce drivers that pay more attention to driving. Just the nature of making the manual go will cut down on the distractions someone can use while driving.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by aerius »

Havok wrote:It won't produce better drivers, but it would produce drivers that pay more attention to driving. Just the nature of making the manual go will cut down on the distractions someone can use while driving.
I'm not so sure about that, I've watched too many episodes of Canada's Worst Driver to hold out any hope. Having to work a clutch & shifter will make it harder to eat breakfast & do makeup, but people will still do it. It's an attitude problem.

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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Phantasee »

The push-button start is a feature that began in high-end models, like Toyota's Lexus and the Ferraris. It's from the F1 cars, they have a push button ignition. I recall (Nissan?) a Japanese car commercial going on about the F1 technology in their cars. Might have been Honda, Toyota, or Nissan (who are in F1 via Renault). Of course, all of them are out now except Renault, and they're looking to get out soon too.

But yeah, it's a feature that trickled down like those HID head lights that started in the Lexus and BMWs and trickled down to regular models (I wouldn't be surprised if base, economy models get them soon too).
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Elfdart »

I thought this whole Toyota "sudden acceleration" thing smelled to high heaven from the beginning.

It's just the work of ambulance chasers looking to make money off a company with deep pockets. I don't think it's a plot by other carmakers, since they are targeted for similar shakedowns, like Ford was with the Crown Victoria. The cars aren't defective -the legal system that doesn't disbar shyster lawyers is defective.



Darth Wong wrote:I expressed my incredulity at this story when I heard about it, especially the obvious question about why he didn't just shift it into neutral. My exchange with Rebecca went something like this:

<snip>

Her: "I don't know. I don't know anything about transmissions."

Me: "Well of course you don't. You're a girl. But this is a man. He has a fucking responsibility to have at least some kind of knowledge of what a transmission does."

Her: "That's pretty sexist, isn't it?"

Me: "Yes."
You're a very lucky man. I just laughed when someone cracked a joke about women drivers and I ended up sleeping on the fucking couch.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Elfdart »

Alyeska wrote: The US has no such type of license. And while a fair portion only drive Automatics, plenty of people still drive manual. The problem you describe is more than just the US. The US is just a country that doesn't require separate training for manual transmissions. I am somewhat lucky in that my parents had two stick shift vehicles in addition to an automatic. So when I was going through drivers ed, I was familiar with both types. Stick shift is for the pleasure of driving, automatic is for mundane tasks.
In Texas it can be one of several restrictions, such as "must wear corrective eyewear" and "daylight driving only".
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Covenant »

I'm not sure "car accelerating without input" is one of the emergency situations that most people plan for--I'd treat this the same way I treat loss-of-traction during our hellacious winter storms. Take feet off of both pedals and see what happens. If, like the video shows, that would have returned control... well, no need for neutral, people just need to learn how to drive in snow and rain and apply that elsewhere. The only thing I've ever heard anyone use Neutral for in Chicagoland is illegally coasting to foolishly attempt gasoline savings. I've never driven a stick-shift or had an opportunity to, nor does anyone I know even own one, so this whole kerfuffle about manual transmissions seems pretty damned bizarre to me.

Pretty interesting video there though. I went down to check my ford and lo and behold, the brake was worn in the center and the accelerator is actually fairly offset (both in terms of horizontal distance and depth) from the brake--it would be nearly impossible for me to depress both, and absolutely impossible to do accidentally. I have to pick up and move my foot to go from brake to accelerator, and I have extremely wide feet and often wear boots about two inches longer than my feet (due to width), so this guy's microscopic size 8's hitting both is really a hilarious design error.

I would question the "drive with two feet" thing, since I'd be worried about people having that panic response of slamming both feet down and catching the accelerator (leading to this kind of 'unintended acceleration' issue), but it would be real nice if more people drove by moving their feet and the pedals were notably distinct in foot placement.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Phantasee »

Elfdart wrote:
Alyeska wrote: The US has no such type of license. And while a fair portion only drive Automatics, plenty of people still drive manual. The problem you describe is more than just the US. The US is just a country that doesn't require separate training for manual transmissions. I am somewhat lucky in that my parents had two stick shift vehicles in addition to an automatic. So when I was going through drivers ed, I was familiar with both types. Stick shift is for the pleasure of driving, automatic is for mundane tasks.
In Texas it can be one of several restrictions, such as "must wear corrective eyewear" and "daylight driving only".
Alberta's licenses also have several conditions that can be applied... actually, let me pull my license out here:
Conditions and Endorsements:
A Adequate Lenses (glasses or contacts)
B Special Conditions
C Periodic Medical
F Valid Temporary License (this would be printed on the paper license you get before the real one is mailed to you)
H Daylight Driving Only
J Outside Mirrors
K Automatic Transmission *
L Hand Controls
N Excludes Class 2 and 4 (which are buses, ambulances, taxis, and small buses)
Q Air Brakes (which isn't printed on Class 1 (trucks) because it's included in that licensing requirement)
S School Bus

So we have the condition, but I don't think we use it anymore.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Broomstick »

In the US an "automatic transmission only" restriction is usually seen in conjunction with a "hand controls only" restriction, though not always. It's usually on the license of someone with a disability affecting their legs, such as paralysis.

As it happens, my Other Half has no such restriction - he's just smart enough not to drive a manual because he knows it would be a problem for him. He slipped through the cracks, probably because the assumption was that if he could walk he could handle a clutch. Well, not really.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Dahak wrote:
Ma Deuce wrote:That seems to defeat the point of having a keyless ignition. Leave it to BMW to come up with something like that.
That's not the keyless system. It just functions as a "normal" system, but instead of turning the key, you press the button. In the real keyless system from BMW, you just need the key in your pocket to unlock the car and start it - you just sit inside and push the start button. Of course, it's an extra (700€), but I liked it a lot.
Yes, the "key" in this case is actually the little transmitter. There is no way to start the car with the mechanical key. You can drive away with the mechanical key inside the house if you like, but you must insert the electronic remote lock in the car's dash. The mechanical key does most of its work as a way to keep the electronic key attached to the rest of my keyring when attached to the transmitter. :)

Now, my uncle's hybrid Nissan Altima has a keyless, push-button ignition system which requires you to have the key/remote lock dongle on you somewhere inside the car (anywhere, even in your pocket or the seat next to you), but there is nothing to actually insert anywhere in the car (other than for mechanically unlocking the driver's side door and glove box).
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Molyneux »

So if the "keyless ignition" is a safety feature...
Why not keep the idea of the dongle, but MAKE THEM PUT THE FUCKING KEY IN so they can take it out if the car needs to be shut off in a hurry?

Honestly, I've thought the concept of a keyless ignition was a dumb one since I first heard of it.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Dominus Atheos wrote:I was once driving a car that had the gas pedal stick and you know what I did? I turned the engine off! Anyone who encounters a situation like that and needs to have a cop car stop them must be either a retard or a liar.

yeah, I recall saying as much to some fundies a few years ago, in their your transmission's stuck, and your on a steep winding grade how can you save your self

me: Simple keep the car in gear and turn off the ignition into position II, so I still have steering.

fundy: No, the only answer is to put your trust in God, and turning off the engine won't do anything

Me: sure it will, it will grind your transmission into scrap metal, but your engine becomes a giant Brake, I've done it before in a honda accord.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Molyneux wrote:So if the "keyless ignition" is a safety feature...
Why not keep the idea of the dongle, but MAKE THEM PUT THE FUCKING KEY IN so they can take it out if the car needs to be shut off in a hurry?
Dunno.

Anyway:
APNewsBreak: Probe questions runaway Prius story

By ELLIOT SPAGAT and KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Writers Elliot Spagat And Ken Thomas, Associated Press Writers 1 hr 10 mins ago

SAN DIEGO – Investigators with Toyota Motor Corp. and the federal government were unable to make a Toyota Prius speed out of control as its owner said it did on a California freeway, according to a draft memorandum obtained Saturday by The Associated Press that casts doubt on the driver's story.

James Sikes, 61, called 911 on Monday to report losing control of his Prius as the hybrid reached speeds of 94 mph. A California Highway Patrol officer helped Sikes bring the vehicle to a safe stop on Interstate 8 near San Diego.

During two hours of test drives of Sikes' car Thursday, technicians with Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration failed to duplicate the same experience that Sikes described, according to the memo prepared for the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.

"Every time the technician placed the gas pedal to the floor and the brake pedal to the floor the engine shut off and the car immediately started to slow down," the memo said.


The report says that, according to Toyota's "residential Hybrid expert," the Prius is designed to shut down if the brakes are applied while the gas pedal is pressed to the floor. If it doesn't, the engine would "completely seize."

"In this case, knowing that we are able to push the car around the shop, it does not appear to be feasibly possible, both electronically and mechanically that his gas pedal was stuck to the floor and he was slamming on the brake at the same time," the memo said.

The findings raise questions about "the credibility of Mr. Sikes' reporting of events," said Kurt Bardella, a spokesman for California Rep. Darrell Issa, the top Republican on the committee, which is looking into the incident.

Sikes could not be reached to comment. However, his wife, Patty Sikes, said he stands by his story.

"Everyone can just leave us alone," she said. "Jim didn't get hurt. There's no intent at all to sue Toyota. If any good can come out of this, maybe they can find out what happened so other people don't get killed."

Mrs. Sikes said the couple's lives have been turned upside down since Monday and they are getting death threats.

"We're just fed up with all of it," she said. "Our careers are ruined and life is just not good anymore."

Monday's incident appeared to be another blow to Toyota, which has had to fend off intense public backlash over safety after recalls of some 8.5 million vehicles worldwide — more than 6 million in the United States — because of acceleration and floor mat problems in multiple models and braking issues in the Prius. Regulators have linked 52 deaths to crashes allegedly caused by accelerator problems.

The brakes on the Prius also did not show wear consistent with having been applied at full force at high speeds for a long period, the Wall Street Journal reported Saturday, citing three people familiar with the probe, whom it did not name. The newspaper said the brakes may have been applied intermittently.

Toyota Corp. spokesman Mike Michels declined to confirm the Journal's report. He said the investigation was continuing and the company planned to release technical findings soon.

Michels said the hybrid braking system in the Prius would make the engine lose power if the brakes and accelerator were pressed at the same time.

The memo did say that investigators found the front brake pads were spent.

"Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left," it said.

The rear brake pads had 1/2 mm left, or 3 1/2 mm less than new pads, the memo said.

Jill Zuckman, spokeswoman for the U.S. Transportation Department that oversees the highway safety agency, said investigators "are still reviewing data and have not reached any conclusions."

Sikes called 911 from the freeway on Monday and reported that his gas pedal was stuck and he could not slow down. In two calls that spanned 23 minutes, a dispatcher repeatedly told him to throw the car into neutral and turn it off.

Sikes later said he had put down the phone to keep both hands on the wheel and was afraid the car would flip if he put it in neutral at such high speed.

The officer — who eventually pulled alongside the car and told Sikes over a loudspeaker to push the brake pedal to the floor and apply the emergency brake — said Sikes braking coincided with a steep incline on the freeway.

Once the car slowed to 50 mph, Sikes shut off the engine, the officer said.

The memorandum obtained by The AP said when investigators placed the Prius up on a lift, they found the driver side front wheel well was dislodged and the brake pads were worn down. "Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left," the memo said.

The memo describes a series of tests conducted by the company and NHTSA on Wednesday and Thursday. A full diagnostics was conducted, followed an inspection of the brakes and a test drive. The Prius was compared with a separate test vehicle provided by the San Diego dealership with identical year, make, model and color features as the one under investigation.

Following the tests, NHTSA bought the gas pedal, throttle body and the two computers from Sikes' vehicle, the memo said. The estimated cost was $2,500 for the parts and labor.

Drivers of two other Toyota vehicles that crashed last week said those incidents also resulted from the vehicles accelerating suddenly.

NHTSA is sending experts to a New York City suburb where the driver of a 2005 Prius said she crashed into a stone wall Monday after the car accelerated on its own.

And in Fort Wayne, Indiana, the driver of a 2007 Lexus said it careened through a parking lot and crashed into a light pole Thursday after its accelerator suddenly dropped to the floor. That car was the subject of a floor mat recall. Driver Myrna Cook of Paulding, Ohio, said it had been repaired.

___

Thomas reported from Washington, D.C.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Rogue 9 »

tim31 wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:The ONLY way you could damage a car by shifting is if you went from drive to park at 90 mph. That MIGHT cause a spin or flip, but you'd have to try really hard to make that happen.
To get to Park in an AT you have to go through Reverse, and I reckon most auto transmissions* out to the last 20 years(at least) have reverse locked out while in forward motion.



*read: all the AT equipped cars I've driven
I once accidentally let my 2001 Taurus slip into reverse through neutral while coasting into my driveway. It did not damage the engine in any way; it simply shut it down. Once I stopped, I could put it in park and start it right back up again with no issues whatsoever.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Phantasee »

This one reinforces the information contained in my second post, that op-ed, with a link to the LA Times story as well. Plus, GRAPHS! I included them for Shroomy. :P
How Real are the Defects in Toyota's Cars?

Mar 12 2010, 2:56 PM ET
One of the great mysteries of the Toyota debacle is why Toyota ignored the complaints for so long. Or at least it's a mystery to reporters on cable news, abetted by consumer advocates who were all too happy to imply that Toyota didn't care how many people it killed as long as they made a profit.

Maybe so, but I doubt it; you don't usually make a profit by killing your customers. It's too risky, in this age of nosy regulators and angry consumer activists.

Their behavior becomes a bit more explicable when you consider this argument from Ted Frank:
The Los Angeles Times recently did a story detailing all of the NHTSA reports of Toyota "sudden acceleration" fatalities, and, though the Times did not mention it, the ages of the drivers involved were striking.
In the 24 cases where driver age was reported or readily inferred, the drivers included those of the ages 60, 61, 63, 66, 68, 71, 72, 72, 77, 79, 83, 85, 89--and I'm leaving out the son whose age wasn't identified, but whose 94-year-old father died as a passenger.
These "electronic defects" apparently discriminate against the elderly, just as the sudden acceleration of Audis and GM autos did before them. (If computers are going to discriminate against anyone, they should be picking on the young, who are more likely to take up arms against the rise of the machines and future Terminators).
In the original Sudden Acceleration Incident craze that afflicted America in the late eighties, the National Highway Safety Transportation Administration eventually ruled that the problem was "pedal misapplication", aka stepping on the gas when you meant to step on the brake. These incidents were highly correlated with three things: being elderly, being short, and parking (or leaving a parking space). The elderly are more prone to the sort of neuronal misfiring described in yesterday's New York Times. Shorter people have to hunt more for the pedals. And starting up from a complete stop is the most likely time to press the wrong pedal.

I was interested in Frank's argument, so I took a look at the LA Times article, which is really admirably thorough. Here are the results, categorized into a nifty, though not necessarily particularly useful, spreadsheet. I went one further than Frank, tracking down the ages of all but a couple of the named drivers. If y'all wondered why I wasn't blogging today, well, there's your answer. I've excluded three cases where the information was just too sparse to have any idea what happened, but otherwise, that's the complete list.

Several things are striking. First, the age distribution really is extremely skewed. The overwhelming majority are over 55.
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Here's what else you notice: a slight majority of the incidents involved someone either parking, pulling out of a parking space, in stop and go traffic, at a light or stop sign . . . in other words, probably starting up from a complete stop.
Image
In many of the other cases, we don't really know what happened, because there were no witnesses of exactly when the car started to run away.

In fact, it's a little hard to be sure that some of the cases were sudden acceleration incidents, because the witnesses to what happened in the car were all killed; the family is trying to reconstruct what happened from their knowledge of the deceased. Obviously, most people are going to err on the side of believing that the car was at fault, rather than a beloved relative.

Further complicating matters, most of the cases involve either a lawsuit against Toyota, a complainant facing possible criminal charges, or both.

In some of the cases, the police or doctors have an alternate theory of what happened: one of the SAIs was bipolar, which puts you at extraordinarily high risk of suicide, and no one knows what actually happened in the car. At least two others involve young men who were driving at very high speed, which is something that young men tend to do with or without a sticky accelerator. Several more of the drivers seem to have had a medical situation, like a stroke, to which doctors and/or police attribute the acceleration.

The oddest "striking" fact is that a disproportionate number seem to be immigrants--something like a third, by my count, which is about double the number of immigrants in the general population. I have no idea what to make of that; are they more likely to file complaints with the NHTSA? Maybe they're shorter, on average, or learned to drive later in life? Or perhaps it's just a statistical fluke.

At any rate, when you look at these incidents all together, it's pretty clear why Toyota didn't investigate this "overwhelming evidence" of a problem: they look a lot like typical cases of driver error. I don't know that all of them are. But I do know that however advanced Toyota's electronics are, they're not yet clever enough to be able to pick on senior citizens.

Unfortunately, that won't help Toyota much. It will still face a wave of lawsuits, and all the negative publicity means that it may be hard for the company to get a fair trial. Even if it does, the verdict in the court of public opinion will still hurt their sales for some time to come.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Mr. Coffee »



Pretty much says it all, really. Even shows the exact same car the dipshit in the OP was driving. It really is as simple as putting it in nuetral or just pressing the power button and applying the brakes.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

yeah, like I said, just shut her down, and the system will brake you....
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Netko »

Covenant wrote:I would question the "drive with two feet" thing, since I'd be worried about people having that panic response of slamming both feet down and catching the accelerator (leading to this kind of 'unintended acceleration' issue), but it would be real nice if more people drove by moving their feet and the pedals were notably distinct in foot placement.
It would also cause you to basically have to fully retrain yourself if you ever do drive a manual - the left foot is used to control the clutch. Randomly pressing on the clutch when you want to brake (which is what would happen if you do train yourself to press the brake with your left foot) is extremely dangerous since when you press the clutch, you detach the engine, losing any engine breaking you would normally have, which, if you are trying to stop and haven't yet pressed the brake pedal fully, can cause issues. Its actually one of the few ways you could cause a claim of temporary "sudden acceleration" on a manual.

That's basically the "oh, some people tell you not to do that" issue from the video.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by eion »

Just a note on push-button starts: They're used in many cars not for safety or security reasons (though they do have benefits in those regards) but because they are cheaper. With a push button start you no longer have to include a lock cylinder on your steering wheel, which means you don't have to make the steering wheel as sturdy or large. You also are spared the actual cutting of a key (except if you have one to unlock doors manually) and instead can simply program a code in, and that code can be changed easily in comparison to a key.

It may be intended to evoke "race care style" but it's all about saving money.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by aieeegrunt »

Elfdart wrote:I thought this whole Toyota "sudden acceleration" thing smelled to high heaven from the beginning.

It's just the work of ambulance chasers looking to make money off a company with deep pockets. I don't think it's a plot by other carmakers, since they are targeted for similar shakedowns, like Ford was with the Crown Victoria. The cars aren't defective -the legal system that doesn't disbar shyster lawyers is defective.



Darth Wong wrote:I expressed my incredulity at this story when I heard about it, especially the obvious question about why he didn't just shift it into neutral. My exchange with Rebecca went something like this:

<snip>

Her: "I don't know. I don't know anything about transmissions."

Me: "Well of course you don't. You're a girl. But this is a man. He has a fucking responsibility to have at least some kind of knowledge of what a transmission does."

Her: "That's pretty sexist, isn't it?"

Me: "Yes."
You're a very lucky man. I just laughed when someone cracked a joke about women drivers and I ended up sleeping on the fucking couch.
Any woman who'd treat me like that would be out the door, but I'm absolutely ruthless when it comes to relationship angst. There's always another woman waiting.
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Molyneux
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by Molyneux »

eion wrote:Just a note on push-button starts: They're used in many cars not for safety or security reasons (though they do have benefits in those regards) but because they are cheaper. With a push button start you no longer have to include a lock cylinder on your steering wheel, which means you don't have to make the steering wheel as sturdy or large. You also are spared the actual cutting of a key (except if you have one to unlock doors manually) and instead can simply program a code in, and that code can be changed easily in comparison to a key.

It may be intended to evoke "race care style" but it's all about saving money.
So another case of "cost-cutting costs lives", as far as I can see.
I really can't see any kind of safety benefit from a keyless start.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by FSTargetDrone »

A couple of people PMed me asking about the key system my car uses, so since at least two people are interested, I recorded 2 short clips.

With the mechanical key inserted to the transmitter (as normal).



With the mechanical key removed:



You have to step on the brake pedal before pressing START. Otherwise, nothing happens. Of course, it's a good idea to do that in general. The electronic key can't be removed from its dock while the car is running.

I'm not sure why depending on a button press is any less safe than twisting a mechanical key in the event I need to shut off the engine in a hurry. Both involve electrical contacts opening and closing, so what does it matter?
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by aerius »

FSTargetDrone wrote:I'm not sure why depending on a button press is any less safe than twisting a mechanical key in the event I need to shut off the engine in a hurry. Both involve electrical contacts opening and closing, so what does it matter?
The button isn't a physical switch. When you press the button it sends a signal to the car computer which then decides whether or not to start/stop the engine. That then sends another signal to the rest of the electronics to do the actual start/stop of the engine. The problem is there are now several more points of failure for the system; the button subsystem, the computer interface & software, and the connections to the ignition & engine systems. If something in there fails or gives the wrong signal the system goes down and there's no way to override it.

With a key you have an actual physical connection to the ignition system, it's simple and damn near failure proof. There are far fewer places where the system can fail, and when you turn the key off it physically breaks the contacts and shuts everything off. It's a simple Murphy resistant system.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Makes sense. Well, there is little I can do about it!

Ever notice how a lot of newer cars don't have key lock cylinders on the passenger side door? That certainly speaks to the cost-savings route of deleting such things in general. I don't think my car even has a key lock cylinder on its tailgate. Never actually noticed it.
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Re: Toytoa Prius that couldn't stop? It's probably a hoax.

Post by aerius »

We noticed the same thing when we got our new Buick. My wife & I had the keys out in the dealer lot and were looking around for the hidden trunk lock, and it was only after looking over the back end of the car several times that we realized there wasn't one. You can't use the key to open the trunk, it only opens from the remote buttons inside the car and on the key fob. But at least it still has a key lock cylinder on the passenger side door, though only the front doors have them. I don't think I've seen lock cylinders on the rear doors since the 1980's.
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aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. :)
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P
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