German car companies: No christmas vacation for workers

[Zaune]

J, I haven't got the specialist knowledge or the patience to add much towhat Thanas has already said, but consider this.
Building a wall around one's borders and leaving one's neighbours to sink or swim ended really well the last time we had a serious global recession, didn't it?

[J]

I'm not advocating heavy tariffs and trade restrictions as was done in the Great Depression, that would cause no end of trouble in today's economy. What I'd like to see is the proposed ESM policies go into effect today to fence off the bad debts in the private sector where they can be defaulted or otherwise resolved without bankrupting nations. At the same time it allows the EU to properly resolve the finances of troubled member nations without resorting to an endless series of taxpayer funded bailouts. That is the best case and what I want to happen, the EU retains its unity and gets its house in order.

The problem is I don't believe it's politically feasible, the banks would never stand for it and they have far too much influence, in addition I doubt troubled nations nor their governments & citizens would be too happy with being forcibly restructured by the rest of the EU.

Since we can't do the above the question is what actions can be taken when the PIGS and other troubled countries start going under? We can continue with the bailouts as was done with Ireland and Greece until every EU country is bankrupted or we start withholding bailouts to some countries which in effect cuts them off from the EU. Those are your choices; let the gangrene spread and take your chances or amputate.

[Starglider]

I don't skip vacations just to keep up appearances, I do it because I proactively have several projects that I'm working on in unison and I can't afford to leave and have the quality of these releases slip.

You can say that there is no way to produce quality products without taking regular vacations but I've taken a total of 5 or 6 vacation days in four years and the products I produce are performing strongly in the marketplace.

There are three possibilities;
a) your company is hiring crap staff who are incapable of working without constant supervision, yet you manage to ride them so hard and so precisely that they turn out good results (in which case I hope your company has key man insurance...).
b) you are using the wrong process and/or have delusions of grandeur
c) you are outright lying; either you are a workaholic who doesn't want to take vacation days in the first place, or your management do in fact value timesheet completion above all else.

Based on both personal experience with numerous project managers and various courses I have been on, (b) is overwhelmingly more likely. Two week vacations can be a serious issue, but no sensibly structured team is going to suffer from the manager taking a long weekend to do a city break or a sports holiday. In software, properly implemented Scrum (or similar) creates a team that self-manages well enough for a week without the team lead to not be a big deal. Depriving your staff of key information and the authority to self-manage is foolish even if you never take vacation, since the project will be wrecked if you have a serious illness, family emergency or even have to go on and spend a week at the customer site in New Zealand.

[The Kernel]

There are three possibilities;
a) your company is hiring crap staff who are incapable of working without constant supervision, yet you manage to ride them so hard and so precisely that they turn out good results (in which case I hope your company has key man insurance...).
b) you are using the wrong process and/or have delusions of grandeur
c) you are outright lying; either you are a workaholic who doesn't want to take vacation days in the first place, or your management do in fact value timesheet completion above all else.

Or "D", you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Based on both personal experience with numerous project managers and various courses I have been on, (b) is overwhelmingly more likely. Two week vacations can be a serious issue, but no sensibly structured team is going to suffer from the manager taking a long weekend to do a city break or a sports holiday. In software, properly implemented Scrum (or similar) creates a team that self-manages well enough for a week without the team lead to not be a big deal. Depriving your staff of key information and the authority to self-manage is foolish even if you never take vacation, since the project will be wrecked if you have a serious illness, family emergency or even have to go on and spend a week at the customer site in New Zealand.

This is completely off-topic from this thread so I'm not going to bother getting into this with you. Suffice to say unless you have actually worked as a product manager (which is COMPLETELY different from a project manager which you'd know if you knew anything about the subject) you are arguing from a place of complete ignorance.

[Andrew J.]

European integration is the instrument through which Germany finally managed to conquer Europe. It's not going to give that up lightly.

[Thanas]

You're an idiot.

[FTeik]

European integration is the instrument through which Germany finally managed to conquer Europe. It's not going to give that up lightly.

Why would they want those bankrupt countries anyway?

[Korgeta]

....due to the heavy demand.

Link in German
- Opel is going to slash vacation time by one week
- VW is going to do the same in some plants, one plant even works throughout the holidays
- Audi is doing extra shifts
- BMW has completely cancelled all christmas vacations in Leipzig and the largest plant of all, the one in Dingolfing.

More promising signs for the German economy.

While that is a promising sign, I can't see it as a good thing for those working who were looking forward and may have already made bookings for the christmas period cut because of demand, though would people get paid extra during the christmas period because of this? This is sometimes the case for support workers who have to do christmas breaks (though not too sure about the private sector let alone with those working at car plants)

And in the minor off topic question popping up. Been to paris, fun, been to Rome, nearly died (heatstroke) mind you I have never seen a more beautiful city then Florence during my time at Italy.

[Thanas]

....due to the heavy demand.

Link in German
- Opel is going to slash vacation time by one week
- VW is going to do the same in some plants, one plant even works throughout the holidays
- Audi is doing extra shifts
- BMW has completely cancelled all christmas vacations in Leipzig and the largest plant of all, the one in Dingolfing.

More promising signs for the German economy.

While that is a promising sign, I can't see it as a good thing for those working who were looking forward and may have already made bookings for the christmas period cut because of demand, though would people get paid extra during the christmas period because of this? This is sometimes the case for support workers who have to do christmas breaks (though not too sure about the private sector let alone with those working at car plants)

Yes, they get paid extra.

And in the minor off topic question popping up. Been to paris, fun, been to Rome, nearly died (heatstroke) mind you I have never seen a more beautiful city then Florence during my time at Italy.

Venice beats Florence IMO.

[Korgeta]

And in the minor off topic question popping up. Been to paris, fun, been to Rome, nearly died (heatstroke) mind you I have never seen a more beautiful city then Florence during my time at Italy.

Venice beats Florence IMO.

I went to Italy at 1999, and parts of Venice was sadly trashed with graffiti in regards to protests at the Kosovo war (for or against I wasn't too sure as my Italian wasn't too good) Had it not been the case i would have agreed with you with venice a better place then Florence, still both lovely cities to visit.

[Andrew J.]

You're an idiot.

I'm being facetious. Sometimes I forget that tone doesn't carry well over the Internet and I need to append a smiley to every sentence I don't want taken completely seriously.

[Lonestar]

Venice beats Florence IMO.

Venice smells like an open-air sewer.

[bobalot]

Is the recent success of the German economy is spread across Germany or simply concentrated in a few regions? We have a problem in Australia called the "two-speed economy", where the mining states are booming and the manufacturing/agricultural states are being crippled due to the higher dollar (caused by mining).

Venice smells like an open-air sewer.

A truly thought provoking contribution to the thread.

[Thanas]

Is the recent success of the German economy is spread across Germany or simply concentrated in a few regions? We have a problem in Australia called the "two-speed economy", where the mining states are booming and the manufacturing/agricultural states are being crippled due to the higher dollar (caused by mining).

It is spread across as the economy of Germany is currently in full gear.

[Skgoa]

The amount of "spread" is relative, though. Anyways, anecdote time: Dresden's software industry is growing faster than any other region's. If this trend continues, we will be at the top in a decade or so.

[Big Orange]

What could apply to Australia as a whole with the areas of mining oustripping the other parts of Australia might as well apply to Europe as a whole, with the heavily industrialised Germany outstripping Spain, Ireland, Italy, and Greece, if they're under the same currency.

I really liked Venice.

[Phantasee]

You're talking about Dutch Disease. Resources make gobs of money, drive up the exchange rate, kills manufacturing. I think we had a bit if that here in Canada where Alberta's and Newfoundland's oil and gas contributed to a strong CAD which hurt Ontario's manufacturing. The recession didn't help, of course, and the US did plenty to drop their currency (raising the CAD even higher).

[bobalot]

You're talking about Dutch Disease. Resources make gobs of money, drive up the exchange rate, kills manufacturing. I think we had a bit if that here in Canada where Alberta's and Newfoundland's oil and gas contributed to a strong CAD which hurt Ontario's manufacturing. The recession didn't help, of course, and the US did plenty to drop their currency (raising the CAD even higher).

Australia should be doing what the Norwegians did, which was to tax the mining boom heavily (oil for Norway) and put the proceeds into a sovereign wealth fund and/or build up infrastructure & local manufacturing. This would have the added effect of taking dollars out out circulation thus dampening inflation.

When this was proposed most Australians (being idiots) believed it was better that most of our mining profits be taken overseas. The fact that it crippled manufacturing, agriculture and tourism as well as feeding inflation was not really considered important.

[Thanas]

You're an idiot.

I'm being facetious. Sometimes I forget that tone doesn't carry well over the Internet and I need to append a smiley to every sentence I don't want taken completely seriously.

My apologies for calling you an idiot then. The problem is that I have heard people saying this in a completely serious tone. *Cue Brits*

[Stark]

What could apply to Australia as a whole with the areas of mining oustripping the other parts of Australia might as well apply to Europe as a whole, with the heavily industrialised Germany outstripping Spain, Ireland, Italy, and Greece, if they're under the same currency.

Uh, what? The 'mining areas' of Australia are featureless deserts and walled compounds. Are you saying that xyz state is carrying the other states?

[mr friendly guy]

It has been suggested that Qld and WA have been carrying the other states, although thats most likely a gross simplification.

[Stark]

It really depends what you mean; the federation is a little too inter-related to talk about it like separate nations. While Queensland has always been big on mining revenue, its hardly that they are 'bailing out' the other states. If the market changes again, Queensland will be back where it was in the 90s because, like Australia in general, it's a banana republic based on primary industry. Germany, on the other hand, is a high-tech and industrial producer.

[mr friendly guy]

True. Even in high school I knew we were primary a resource rich nation which is more vulnerable to changing economic conditions than a country which has a large industrial base. The message I got from economic class was we should produce high tech goods etc. Now in reality it seems we get by selling stuff to China, and let them produce the goods (high tech and low tech). From what I get from reading the papers, we expect the good times to continue because Asia (China, Japan, India and a lesser extent South Korea) will continue to buy. I think for the near future this will be true, and at least I have put my money where my mouth is and invested spare cash in mining stocks.

Back onto the other point, while I don't think WA or Qld "carries the country", the rhetoric from WA in regards to this is quite loud.

[Andrew J.]

You're an idiot.

I'm being facetious. Sometimes I forget that tone doesn't carry well over the Internet and I need to append a smiley to every sentence I don't want taken completely seriously.

My apologies for calling you an idiot then. The problem is that I have heard people saying this in a completely serious tone. *Cue Brits*

There is an element of truth to the joke; otherwise it wouldn't be funny. Germany has gained prestige and influence in Europe through economic strength that it was unable to (on a long-lasting basis, anyway) through military might, all while maintaining the moral high ground to boot! But to literally say that it conquered everyone else would definitely be going too far; everyone just owes Germany a lot of favors right now. (And no, changing your official language to German or cooperating with an invasion of Russia are too big to qualify as "favors", I think. )

[Thanas]

What is funny is that the stated intention of the EU was to bind Germany to its neighbours, to prevent another European hegemony struggle through compromise. This was pretty much the sole reason for France agreeing to join the EU. Of course, this strategy only worked with one half of Germany, once reunification happened Germany pretty much became the Nr. 1 country in Europe anyway.

But at least at the start it was a good way to prevent further German influence in Europe.