Government bans workers from reading WikiLeaks

[Broomstick]

Perhaps they report what is given to them, and the Bush Administration provided so much damn material. The same could be said for WikiLeaks. WikiLeaks reports the best bits of what is handed to them, and the US has provided them with ALOT of material. That doesn't mean that they are specifically anti-US, it also could mean than the US has done much to be exposed.

It could also mean that Americans are more likely to take some risks to expose government misbehavior than some other cultures. Mr. Manning (the one who sent WikiLeaks the current heap o' shit) took some major risks for no apparent material gain. Why? He's certainly not the first US insider to expose the dirty laundry.

Which is not to say people from other nations aren't capable of self-sacrifice for an ideal. I'm certain they are. It's just that (apparently) we haven't had an insider from Russia or China or North Korea or France or Germany hand over a ton of stuff to WikiLeaks. Yet. That we know about.

[Broomstick]

What bugs the hell out of me, more than anything else, is that I've had long arguments with people convinced that we need to charge Julian Assange with espionage under US law...because American classification rules apply worldwide, apparently.

When this all first broke I had to inform the Other Half that Assange could not be charged with treason... because he wasn't a US citizen. I think there are a quite a few people in the US who still don't realize he's Australian. He's a white guy who speaks English, right? Must be American!

And yeah, a certain number of asshats who don't understand US law is not universal.

More and more folks are getting the message Assange isn't American, but when this current round of WikiLeaks hit a lot of people had never heard of him or his website before and really didn't know shit about him. Says something, I suppose, that the kneejerk response of a lot of a Americans to some guy exposing confidential US government documents was the assumption he was an American.

[Thanas]

Which is not to say people from other nations aren't capable of self-sacrifice for an ideal. I'm certain they are. It's just that (apparently) we haven't had an insider from Russia or China or North Korea or France or Germany hand over a ton of stuff to WikiLeaks. Yet. That we know about.

Then you are misinformed. Look up past leaks.

[Broomstick]

I meant in the same quantity. I am actually aware that there has been stuff from other countries, but the current pile of stuff from the US is significantly larger than what WikiLeaks has released from other countries, unless they've gotten a large stash we haven't heard about yet.

[Molyneux]

In that case, I think I just don't understand something. How can he have committed a crime under American law when he is neither a US citizen, nor stepped onto US soil?

There's precedent. A UK hacker was extradited after he hacked into computers in the Pentagon.

For Assange, he can be charged with as many charges as the Attorney General can think of really. Conspiracy etc. etc.

That still doesn't sound to me like it applies - hacking into American computers is still attacking something that's on US soil, even if you do it electronically.

[Shroom Man 777]

It's not that people are America are more capable of self-sacrifice for an ideal or are more noble than others, because they aren't. It's cause the American government is less murderous, since in Russia and China you've got higher percentages of murdered or imprisoned journoes. It's also because the American security apparatus is shit. And it's because America is engaging in more objectionable activity than, say, Germany or Lithuania or Monaco.

And also, as I said elsewhere:

The only reason Wikileaks' material on the USA are so prominent in the media and news right now compared to leaks from other parts of the world is the same as why any other thing involving the USA is so prominent compared to other things from other parts of the world. It's because nobody gives a shit about the rest of the world, because the only thing important in the universe is America and everything else happening in the rest of the world doesn't matter - just like the rest of the world, really.

Man, you Americans should know this, of all people.

I meant in the same quantity. I am actually aware that there has been stuff from other countries, but the current pile of stuff from the US is significantly larger than what WikiLeaks has released from other countries, unless they've gotten a large stash we haven't heard about yet.

It is because the security apparatus is so shit that one guy, that guy, was able to get so much by himself. Whereas elsewhere it might be more difficult (and dangerous) to get much smaller quantities of informations.

I mean, shit, where else can you have an army officer end up with secret files from the State Department/Ministry of Foreign Affairs? That's like some janitorial services officer ending up with top secret weapons blueprints. Or some guy at the post office finding classified war plans, CIA documents, or 1960s graphs (whoops!).

[Broomstick]

It's not that people are America are more capable of self-sacrifice for an ideal or are more noble than others, because they aren't. It's cause the American government is less murderous

Given the bloody hands in the US government that is actually a frightening statement....

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

There's precedent. A UK hacker was extradited after he hacked into computers in the Pentagon.

For Assange, he can be charged with as many charges as the Attorney General can think of really. Conspiracy etc. etc.

That still doesn't sound to me like it applies - hacking into American computers is still attacking something that's on US soil, even if you do it electronically.

Conspiracy to commit treason? He did after all help that Private to steal the data and then transmit it to them.

[Mr Bean]

Conspiracy to commit treason? He did after all help that Private to steal the data and then transmit it to them.

Treason requires you to betray a trust. Being not America, British or any of the other countries leaked about he can't be charged with that either since he can't by default be a traitor. Otherwise every Tom, Dick and Larry Nazi should have been charged with treason for daring to fight back in WWII or we should have rounded up the pilots who bombed Pearl Harbor been accused of terrorism. Or any of the VietCong or Al-Q for that matter with treason or conspiracy.

You must be American or trusted by America in some way & working for them to commit treason against it.
It's a definition thing. If I take someone from their home, tie them up and drive across state lines I am not guilty for murder, nor am I guilty for blackmail nor dispiriting booze without a license. I have to do the acts and commit those crimes before you can charge me for them. Even if I do have someone tied up and in the trunk of my car I've not killed anyone, tried to blackmail anyone or sold booze yet so you can't charge me with those crimes, Kidnapping? Sure you can charge me with that, because I've done that. And only that so far.

[Broomstick]

There's precedent. A UK hacker was extradited after he hacked into computers in the Pentagon.

For Assange, he can be charged with as many charges as the Attorney General can think of really. Conspiracy etc. etc.

That still doesn't sound to me like it applies - hacking into American computers is still attacking something that's on US soil, even if you do it electronically.

Conspiracy to commit treason? He did after all help that Private to steal the data and then transmit it to them.

WikiLeaks doesn't help anyone steal anything - they wait for stuff to be given to them.

The UK hacker stole something from a machine located in the US. That's theft. That was the basis for extradition. WikiLeaks arguably received stolen goods, but they didn't do the stealing.

And if Assange is Australian (which he is) then he can't commit treason against the US since he is in no way obligated to act in the interests of the US. Espionage, yes, that's possible, and it's possible someone in the US government will resort to extra-legal means, but I really don't see much of an opening to charge him with breaking US law.

[Gil Hamilton]

To be fair, he is pretty much guilty of espionage, and if he's ever stupid enough to enter American jurisdiction he'll get snagged and probably charged with exactly that. Coupled with America will probably pressure it's allies to extradite the guy if possible too. So, that argument does hold water, even if you don't like it, the fact of the matter is he precipitated the release of a shit ton of classified US documents.

Doesn't espionage have to for the benefit of a foreign power or for the purpose of damaging the US government, but not only that, have to be specifically related to national defense as outlined in the Espionage Act? As far as I can tell from reading the Act, Assange didn't release the information specifically to harm the national defense of the US or was acting on behalf of a foriegn power. In order to get him for Espionage, you have to demonstrate that he was deliberately attempting to harm the United States and/or was acting on behalf of a foriegn power.

That's the thing, no one has tried anything over this. If they had a slam dunk espionage case, you'd think a warrant for his arrest would exist so that they CAN snag him if he steps foot in US jusidiction, wouldn't you?

[Uraniun235]

In that case, I think I just don't understand something. How can he have committed a crime under American law when he is neither a US citizen, nor stepped onto US soil?

Not needed for espionage. The only thing needed is that he has classified US documents and didn't destroy/return them immediately. Just like this text attachment under most official emails says...

Technically, using those information is a form of espionage.

Really, so if I post cables from Wikileaks here on SDN to back up an argument, do you think that qualifies as espionage?

[Phantasee]

Oh shit, am I in trouble if I post part of a cable? Hope you guys weren't reading the other thread...

[Stark]

Amusingly the email 'omg delete anything' blurb is totally unenforceable. If someone emails me secret moonbase plans by accident, they lose.

[Shroom Man 777]

It's not that people are America are more capable of self-sacrifice for an ideal or are more noble than others, because they aren't. It's cause the American government is less murderous

Given the bloody hands in the US government that is actually a frightening statement....

The US government only kills journalists in warzones. That's an incredible amount of leniency, restraint and mercy they have and makes them to be totally laid back and slack compared to places like Russia, China or the Philippines.

One time, in the southern Philippines, there was this guy challenging the local governor's office. So his family members and dozens of journalists got into a convoy of cars and were headed for the polling station. But the local governor sent his private army, armed by the central government, and his goons killed and raped his rival's supporters/extended family and killed the journos as well, and buried them in a mass grave using heavy construction equipment (that I think was gov't owned as well). I think fifty people more or less died. Anyway, right now that governor is in trial, but there's not enough evidence to convict him.

Dozens of journos get murdered ever year in the Philippines, most probably by the government or the military.

Apparently those calling for Assange's assassination, and all those other lame internet tough guy posturing by fatty Americans, makes me think that these fatty Americans want their country to be more like the Philippines. But it makes sense, since a lot of fat old Americans come to the Philippines to retire and marry mail-order brides. Instead of wasting money on the airplane ticket fare, if they just instead turned their country into a shithole run by murderous thugs, they wouldn't have to fly to the Philippines, since they'd already be living in the Philippines!

Assange is proof that America is still not yet the Philippines. His continued survival, and Wikileak's continued success, is proof that America is better than that. And the more leaks and the more compromising material he reveals about America, the more hopeful I am of America's bright future.

I envy you. I wish we had an Assange revealing horrible information about our government and spreading it to the mass media so that our country will be humiliated in front of the international community. I mean, that Manila Hostage Crisis was nothing. We need more things to show the world just how shitty we are - for only then can we change. The day we have an Assange ruin the shit out of our government will be a wonderful day. We need an Assange to save us, just like how he is saving America.

[Knife]

Conspiracy to commit treason? He did after all help that Private to steal the data and then transmit it to them.

Treason requires you to betray a trust. Being not America, British or any of the other countries leaked about he can't be charged with that either since he can't by default be a traitor. Otherwise every Tom, Dick and Larry Nazi should have been charged with treason for daring to fight back in WWII or we should have rounded up the pilots who bombed Pearl Harbor been accused of terrorism. Or any of the VietCong or Al-Q for that matter with treason or conspiracy.

You must be American or trusted by America in some way & working for them to commit treason against it.
It's a definition thing. If I take someone from their home, tie them up and drive across state lines I am not guilty for murder, nor am I guilty for blackmail nor dispiriting booze without a license. I have to do the acts and commit those crimes before you can charge me for them. Even if I do have someone tied up and in the trunk of my car I've not killed anyone, tried to blackmail anyone or sold booze yet so you can't charge me with those crimes, Kidnapping? Sure you can charge me with that, because I've done that. And only that so far.

His original post said espionage, not treason.

[Shroom Man 777]

Even if Wikileaks is 'just another anti-US site', how does that attack the veracity of their sources or the outrageous behaviour of various governments? Its almost like you're attacking the messenger because you can't attack the evidence!

Seriously, man. It's totally like a style versus substance fallacy. Even if Wikileaks was an anti-US site, and even if it presented its leaks while calling America a retarded fuckpalming nozzledouche, as long as Wikileaks did the proper quantifications and calculations in assuming that the USA is a spherical mass of iron requiring XYZ megajoules to vaporize, then it's up to America to refute the evidence or concede, QED bitch. Would these guys rather have a MissMannersLeaks rather than a Wikileaks? Sounds like they should try hiding behind packing crates. America should try using trigger guards.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I envy you. I wish we had an Assange revealing horrible information about our government and spreading it to the mass media so that our country will be humiliated in front of the international community. I mean, that Manila Hostage Crisis was nothing. We need more things to show the world just how shitty we are - for only then can we change. The day we have an Assange ruin the shit out of our government will be a wonderful day. We need an Assange to save us, just like how he is saving America.

But unfortunately Shroom, everybody already knows that Philippines is a third world a country with an emerging economy and they already know shit like that happens in those countries. So nobody is interested in leaked documents from the Philippines. However, if it's any consolation, nobody would be interested even in leaks concerning small first world countries like Finland or Sweden, unless it was a really juicy rumor like the Swedish king sleeping around like dirty old man... Oh wait.

[Shroom Man 777]

That is what I mean. The day we get a person like Assange is the day we become a better country than we are today, it is the day when we have progressed and are not a shithole country. If we get an Assange leaking our shit, rather than a ditch full of dead journos, that actually means that we've become a decent country. It is a blessing, it is a curse, who is it? It is Spiderman Assange!

[spartasman]

Damnit Shroom, I never know whether or not to take you seriously. Maybe that's the point.

[Shroom Man 777]

Seriously, shithole countries like my own routinely murder journalists and activists, and all the government's reprehensible shit is never brought to the light. Whereas America, because it is not a shithole, doesn't kill journalists or activists (at least, not outside war zones, because it is easier to justify shits in war zones and because there really are accidents there), so their journos and activists and leakers can actually bring the reprehensible shit to light for people to see and hear. So the things that are happening now, Assange's public service, and the subsequent disgrace faced by the American government, that is a mark of a civilized nation. That is a good thing, and you people should be thankful for that.

Or would you rather have your government arm militia death squads who routinely murder and execute journalists and activists? Because that is what we have to live with in our part of the world.

The day where people like Assange in my country can leak the government's reprehensible shit out to the public, without being murdered en masse and buried in a mass grave, will be a great day. When that happens, I guess we can finally call ourselves civilized and decent. So, yeah, you guys don't know how good you have it.

[K. A. Pital]

Part of the thing is that Assange is not anywhere close to the USA and it would be painstakingly hard to dissappear him or kill him using "mob accident"-type scenario (although without doubt, this is possible even on foreign soil). Governments and especially militia death squads and criminal mobs of shithole Third World nations can kill whistleblower inside the nation, but outside - their arms are probably too short for that, heh. I do not believe the story with Assange is over yet, too.

[Phantasee]

I envy you. I wish we had an Assange revealing horrible information about our government and spreading it to the mass media so that our country will be humiliated in front of the international community. I mean, that Manila Hostage Crisis was nothing. We need more things to show the world just how shitty we are - for only then can we change. The day we have an Assange ruin the shit out of our government will be a wonderful day. We need an Assange to save us, just like how he is saving America.

But unfortunately Shroom, everybody already knows that Philippines is a third world a country with an emerging economy and they already know shit like that happens in those countries. So nobody is interested in leaked documents from the Philippines. However, if it's any consolation, nobody would be interested even in leaks concerning small first world countries like Finland or Sweden, unless it was a really juicy rumor like the Swedish king sleeping around like dirty old man... Oh wait.

Citation needed, buddy.

[Xon]

And yeah, a certain number of asshats who don't understand US law is not universal.

The Australian government has proven it will bendover backwards to let the USA prosecute Australian citizens in America under USA laws after extraditing them to the USA under some pretext.

[Lusankya]

And yeah, a certain number of asshats who don't understand US law is not universal.

The Australian government has proven it will bendover backwards to let the USA prosecute Australian citizens in America under USA laws after extraditing them to the USA under some pretext.

According to Gillard, Assange is "guilty of illegality", whatever that means. The Australian government is also considering the consequences of cancelling his passport.

Attorney-general Robert McClelland said the Australian government had considered cancelling the passport as global efforts continue to track down Assange but there were "issues in respect of serving a notice of cancellation."

"More importantly, there (are) issues as to whether it would be constructive or counter-productive to the law enforcement," McClelland told reporters.

Assange's passport would set off alarms if presented at an airport and McClelland questioned "whether it would be counter-productive to remove the identification that would in fact trigger the law-enforcement process."

The attorney-general said Australia was also examining whether Assange had broken any local laws and had indicated "that we will provide every assistance to United States law enforcement authorities."

Asked if Assange would be welcome to return to Australia McClelland said: "Any Australian citizen has their rights as an Australian citizen but that also includes the consequences of breaching any laws of another country.

Hell, the only thing an Australian passport is good for is cheap visas. As far as I'm concerned, whenever I go overseas, I should act on the assumption that how much the Australian government helps me is entirely dependent on how much Newspoll wants to help me, and even if Newspoll said that the government would lose 100% of their seats at the next election if they didn't help me, I still wouldn't expect much.