Neo-Nazi party in Greece could enter Parliament

[Alkaloid]

See, I buy that as the reason people vote for them, but it doesn't seem to be a plan going in. Frankly, parties like that seem to be so focused on their own agenda and so lacking in self awareness that this sort of cynical manipulation should be beyond them. And it doesn't work the other way either, the far left can't display a hammer and sickle or something that clearly resembles them without ridicule, and the USSR was a much scarier threat for a much longer time in living memory for a far larger number of people than the Nazis were.

[Norseman]

My impression is that these parties take advantage of one thing.

Nearly everyone in Europe perceives the Nazis (with reason) as having been darkly evil and incredibly dangerous... and that creates a perception of strength. They were a powerful enemy, and therefore powerful. When you feel powerless, and the establishment has no answers for you, there is a certain satisfaction in deliberately drawing on a legacy of power associated with 'the bad guys.' The establishment doesn't want you to think like this, it isn't acceptable as part of the received wisdom... and so it must be a powerful secret!

Could something like that be part of the thought process? It helps to explain the picking and choosing aspect. These people aren't adopting cloned German Naziism as a self-consistent ideology. They're taking the parts of the "dark side lore" of Naziism that suit them, and using them to build a narrative that appeals to disaffected right-wingers in European countries.

I think that there could be a lot of truth to that yes. I would also throw in that there are often no real checks and balances on extremists. Basically extremist parties in Europe often have a few issues that genuinely resonate with the common man (immigration, crime related to immigration, economic upheavals as a result of globalization, and a sense of powerlessness in regards to the EU), but which the mainstream parties refuse to touch. So the extremists take up these causes, which taint them even further in the eyes of the mainstream. However this gives these extremists a constant source of funding, support, and fresh blood that they'd normally lack.

Now usually there's a moderating element in that these parties often gain enough support that they realise: Hey, there's a lot of people who'd vote for us if only we at least tried to seem respectable. Or even a moderating element through having a lot of moderates join the party, because it was the only game in town, and then slowly start to remove the more objectionable parts of its program.

What makes the Golden Dawn so unique is that they are an unreconstructed, unmoderated radical party who suddenly got an election victory. Even Jobbik, the closest equivalent, had some degree of moderation before they gained power. I'm wondering if this could be a result of the speed at which everything went to pot. In the rest of Europe the more extreme parties have often spent decades slowly gaining power and support, rather than suddenly gaining influence due to an emergency.

[Simon_Jester]

See, I buy that as the reason people vote for them, but it doesn't seem to be a plan going in. Frankly, parties like that seem to be so focused on their own agenda and so lacking in self awareness that this sort of cynical manipulation should be beyond them.

Why do you think the older members of the party joined up? The same effect is working on them. They're not cynics just trying to get into power. They're people who have themselves been drawn in by that same idea: "the status quo has nothing for us, let's tap into these old 'forbidden' ideas because they must have something going for them."

And it doesn't work the other way either, the far left can't display a hammer and sickle or something that clearly resembles them without ridicule, and the USSR was a much scarier threat for a much longer time in living memory for a far larger number of people than the Nazis were.

The recent memory makes them less useful, not more- because they're clearly remembered as enemies, not just as a big powerful scary monster of the dim, half-forgotten past. Also, the USSR kind of... broke up in a way the Nazis did not. Germany was defeated by sheer military might, which makes it in some ways easier for a neo-Nazi to insist that there was nothing inherently wrong with the way their government and society worked.

[Norseman]

Also Nazi Germany was sexy. Their propaganda was smooth and seductive, their buildings impressive, their uniforms amazing, etc. The Soviet Union? Gaudy uniforms and ugly women driving tractors.

[hongi]

I must be the only one who prefers the Soviet aesthetic to the Nazi one. I could wax poetic about the Hind all day.

[mr friendly guy]

Simon, why do you suppose these guys aren't drawn to the United States then. The US is certainly more right on the political spectrum than Europe, and they are definitely more powerful than the Nazis ever were. So wouldn't under your hypothesis, these guys will be drawn to the US.

[Broomstick]

You mean aside from the fact that the party's leader published a well known book outlining every part of his plan, including his desire to invade sovereign nations and enslave their populations?

Um, how many people pre-WWII (or pre-Munich Agreement) even bothered to read Mein Kampf, let alone take Hitler's intentions seriously?

Probably more than you think. Estimated number of copies sold by the time Hitler became Chancellor was a quarter million (that's world-wide, not just in Germany) which for the time was pretty substantial. Of course, more people had heard of it than actually read it, and the more powerful Hitler and his cronies became politically the more people read the book.

No doubt when it first came out - and the author was in prison - plenty of people dismissed him as a kook but when he started gaining power? Not so much. Not to mention the German Nazis inspired folks in other countries to form their own rabidly nationalist groups. The ideas of [insert particular group] being the "master" race, other groups as sub-human (or even non-human), the notion of "superior" groups having a "right" to enslave "lesser" people, and so forth did not originate with the Nazis and, in fact, were distressingly common prior (and even after) WWII.

I can't speak for other countries, but in mine prior to us going to war with Germany there were definitely groups that were in full support of the Nazis, and others that might have disagreed with the more extreme aspects of their agenda but still had much in common with them. Not everyone believes in equal rights for all, nor does everyone favor democracy over other forms of government.

[Aaron MkII]

I must be the only one who prefers the Soviet aesthetic to the Nazi one. I could wax poetic about the Hind all day.

Your not.

[Skywalker_T-65]

I must be the only one who prefers the Soviet aesthetic to the Nazi one. I could wax poetic about the Hind all day.

Honestly, I prefer Soviet designs for things in most cases. I actually like the AK series. And the later generation MIGs and Sukhois are my favorite airplanes (by later generation I mean MIG-29 or SU-27). So no, you are not the only one who likes the Soviet aesthetic.

[Simon_Jester]

Simon, why do you suppose these guys aren't drawn to the United States then. The US is certainly more right on the political spectrum than Europe, and they are definitely more powerful than the Nazis ever were. So wouldn't under your hypothesis, these guys will be drawn to the US.

No, because it's about drastically transforming your own society, not just randomly fetishizing someone. This is not a pure exercise in power-worship. It's a matter of co-opting the symbols of forbidden (but still strong) power that demonstrate how different you think the world should be.

There are two good reasons that adopting American symbolism won't work for far-right parties in Europe.

One is that there really aren't any American symbols that would make sense for such parties. American political symbolism is mostly national, not ideological. And it's ideology that these people have and are trying to express- waving an American flag doesn't send the message they want.

Two is that the US really isn't that different from Europe, from the point of view of this sort of person: the US economy's in a slump, the government shows a discouraging lack of Men On Horseback to save the economy and the nation, there's a distinct lack of consciousness among the people of their collective racial and cultural destiny, and the damn dirty immigrants still have rights. The US is probably no less decadent than Greece, as far as the Golden Dawn is concerned. Indeed, the US is probably partly to blame for Greece's agony, because they're part of global capitalism, which Greek neo-Nazis don't like.

We can talk about how far-right America is all we want here, but to be honest, on a scale where the "right" wing is defined by totalitarian dictatorships, the US is really not very far to the right at all. Just as Europe is really not that far to the left when "left" is defined in terms of the old Communist bloc.

[Col. Crackpot]

Also Nazi Germany was sexy. Their propaganda was smooth and seductive, their buildings impressive, their uniforms amazing, etc. The Soviet Union? Gaudy uniforms and ugly women driving tractors.

That's pretty... fucked up. There are a lot of words i'd use to describe Nazism. Sexy is not one.

[Imperial528]

Actually I would say his point is correct. I wouldn't have put it that way, but a big part of fascist regimes is that they want to look superior. Often they make uniforms that are designed to inspire pride or power in their wearers and use powerful symbols and colors. The swastika is a good example, it's a fairly interesting yet simple geometric shape, and it was already fairly well known as a symbol of luck or with other good association in much of the world at the time of the nazi party's creation. Slap that on a flag with the German empire's colors and they made a rather appealing flag for nationalism.

Another example would be modern nationalistic groups, they are often obsessed with things such as their country's flag and symbols of their country's power and the ideals they believe in, and they do not hesitate to show this pride and how good it makes them feel, in order to attract others to their movement and ideology.

[ChaserGrey]

Also Nazi Germany was sexy. Their propaganda was smooth and seductive, their buildings impressive, their uniforms amazing, etc. The Soviet Union? Gaudy uniforms and ugly women driving tractors.

That's pretty... fucked up. There are a lot of words i'd use to describe Nazism. Sexy is not one.

Fucked up, but true. Check out some of the "Nazi chic" in places like Korea and Thailand, where the Germans didn't have much of an impact. (One example: http://asiaobscura.com/2011/05/the-38th ... splay.html) Nazi uniforms look pretty snappy if you can ignore their horrible historical context, and that's all too easy to do if you're not American, European, or [Russian/From an ex-Soviet republic].

Edit to add: I should be clear that this isn't a widespread trend- if you click through the like above to the guy who actually took the photos, most of the translated comments say things like "You're an ignorant moron" and "Please, if someone asks what country you're from, lie". But I think it illustrates how easy it can be to fetishize Nazism if you can successfully blind yourself to the inconvenient parts of the historical record.)

[Panzersharkcat]

Also Nazi Germany was sexy. Their propaganda was smooth and seductive, their buildings impressive, their uniforms amazing, etc. The Soviet Union? Gaudy uniforms and ugly women driving tractors.

That's pretty... fucked up. There are a lot of words i'd use to describe Nazism. Sexy is not one.

Fucked up, but true. Check out some of the "Nazi chic" in places like Korea and Thailand, where the Germans didn't have much of an impact. (One example: http://asiaobscura.com/2011/05/the-38th ... splay.html) Nazi uniforms look pretty snappy if you can ignore their horrible historical context, and that's all too easy to do if you're not American, European, or [Russian/From an ex-Soviet republic].

Mhm. There's a reason there are fantasies about being ravished by someone dressed as a Nazi and not, say, a Republican. (Well, at least more of them, rule 34 and all.) I hold the opinion they had the best look-looking uniforms of all sides in the war.

[Simon_Jester]

Also Nazi Germany was sexy. Their propaganda was smooth and seductive, their buildings impressive, their uniforms amazing, etc. The Soviet Union? Gaudy uniforms and ugly women driving tractors.

That's pretty... fucked up. There are a lot of words i'd use to describe Nazism. Sexy is not one.

Not in the sense of "I personally find it appealing," but in the sense of "there's something aesthetic there." Hitler had a lot of artists and designers on staff, and he had the benefit of the art deco school- used it to full advantage.

With Hugo Boss designing the uniforms, Leni Riefenstahl shooting the movies, and Albert Speer designing the monuments, it's no wonder the Nazis wound up looking impressive.

Another example would be modern nationalistic groups, they are often obsessed with things such as their country's flag and symbols of their country's power and the ideals they believe in, and they do not hesitate to show this pride and how good it makes them feel, in order to attract others to their movement and ideology.

That's especially effective in Europe where waving the national symbols isn't socially accepted in much of mainstream politics. If dressing in the national colors and waving banners is against the rules, and yet it looks good, it grants power to whoever is far enough outside the mainstream to break the rules.

[Broomstick]

Simon, why do you suppose these guys aren't drawn to the United States then. The US is certainly more right on the political spectrum than Europe, and they are definitely more powerful than the Nazis ever were. So wouldn't under your hypothesis, these guys will be drawn to the US.

No, because it's about drastically transforming your own society, not just randomly fetishizing someone. This is not a pure exercise in power-worship. It's a matter of co-opting the symbols of forbidden (but still strong) power that demonstrate how different you think the world should be.

There are two good reasons that adopting American symbolism won't work for far-right parties in Europe.

One is that there really aren't any American symbols that would make sense for such parties. American political symbolism is mostly national, not ideological. And it's ideology that these people have and are trying to express- waving an American flag doesn't send the message they want.

Two is that the US really isn't that different from Europe, from the point of view of this sort of person: the US economy's in a slump, the government shows a discouraging lack of Men On Horseback to save the economy and the nation, there's a distinct lack of consciousness among the people of their collective racial and cultural destiny, and the damn dirty immigrants still have rights. The US is probably no less decadent than Greece, as far as the Golden Dawn is concerned. Indeed, the US is probably partly to blame for Greece's agony, because they're part of global capitalism, which Greek neo-Nazis don't like.

You missed the part, reason number three, why these guys wouldn't be drawn to the US: immigration. Yes, there have been some terrible things done to discourage certain categories of immigrants at certain times, but at the same time there is at least lip service to being a "nation of immigrants" which is 180 degrees off from the "Greece for the Greeks" meme, the antithesis of welcoming, or even tolerating, immigrants from elsewhere. While there is pressure to assimilate and adopt American customs there is also a tendency to tolerate continuation of "old country" customs and for the nation as a whole to adopt things from elsewhere and incorporate them into the larger society.

If you're looking for an ethnically pure country the US is not one that comes to mind. We're an ethnic mish-mash and getting to be more so with every generation. I wouldn't be surprised if the Golden Dawn finds the US to be disgusting on account of that.

[Lord Pounder]

I think they are more of a protest vote at the moment, much as the BNP in England are. They are no threat.

[Broomstick]

Let's hope they don't become one. Greece has enough problems right now, they don't need to add batshit political bullshit and scapegoating to the list.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Just to add to that whole aesthetic thing, remember that Nazi uniforms were intentionally designed that way and you are being seduced by an international propaganda maneouvre of the Nazi party when you like them, they're intended to be very flashy and catchy. The SS actually commissioned Hugo Boss (I am not making this up--yes, the SAME Hugo Boss as the modern logo) to design their uniforms to be as eye-catching and impressive as possible.

[CJvR]

I thought Nazi and Soviet propaganda imagery was almost identical.
Über mench/prole/peasant determinedly working/fighting for the state/volk with the nazi throwing in a pinch of nostalgia. Both liked neo-classicistic architecture.

[Aaron MkII]

The Soviets were fond of really big hats:

[CaptHawkeye]

I thought Nazi and Soviet propaganda imagery was almost identical.
Über mench/prole/peasant determinedly working/fighting for the state/volk with the nazi throwing in a pinch of nostalgia. Both liked neo-classicistic architecture.

I don't think that Russian propaganda emphasized the superiority of Slavs as a race. It more emphasized the superiority of their political and economic system and that all in the world were supposed to (whether they wanted to or not) eventually join with it one day. This was flagrantly against the stated values of fascism, in that the world is to be ruled by an elite class with total power over all others.

[Mr. Coffee]

Also Nazi Germany was sexy. Their propaganda was smooth and seductive, their buildings impressive, their uniforms amazing, etc. The Soviet Union? Gaudy uniforms and ugly women driving tractors.

That's pretty... fucked up. There are a lot of words i'd use to describe Nazism. Sexy is not one.

It's pretty damn hard to not look sexy as hell when you're wearing Hugo Boss, dude.

[Crown]

I think they are more of a protest vote at the moment, much as the BNP in England are. They are no threat.

I tend to agree. There was a thread I started back in 04 (or 05) I think when Golden Dawn had invited Neo-Nazi groups to march with them in protest against an EU meeting that was being held in Thessaloniki to demand tighter border controls and the such, the march was besieged by left wing anarchists that were wading into the right wing groups with tire irnos, bats, and molotov cocktails. They got the shit beat out of them, riot police were there to protect the Neo-Nazis from being torn to shreds.

The thread in question, my memory is a bit off.

[Lord Zentei]

That's pretty... fucked up. There are a lot of words i'd use to describe Nazism. Sexy is not one.

It's pretty damn hard to not look sexy as hell when you're wearing Hugo Boss, dude.

Indeed. Nazi uniforms looked damn good, too they were wasted on the Nazis.

OTOH, as for the architecture of both Nazis and the Soviets, I never cared much for either of them. Though arguably they were less dull than the glass boxes of late 20th century America and Western Europe.


On topic: not being an expert on Greek politics, but it seems to me that Greece is in for a political stalemate until further elections, as I can't see the Coalition of the Radical Left working with either of the other two main parties. And will anything change even then?