7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Lonestar wrote:
Phantasee wrote:I've always wondered about it. The Indian army needs to use NBC gear to protect against both Pakistan and China, and a large proportion of the Indian forces is Sikh.

Well, I knew that the helmet thing was bullshit. I couldn't imagine that the Indian military would just shrug and go "whelp" if they couldn't easily make sure everyone could wear a helmet.

I considered NBC gear a whole nother bag of 'Taters, my line of thought essentially being "they'll be in full suits". Vaseline didn't even occur to me.
Here is a picture from the Army.mil article above of Rattan putting on his gas mask:

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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Lonestar »

reeeeeeeeeed x

EDIT: Also, I don't need a picture, I believe the article and Aaron saying how the bearded ones do it.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Sea Skimmer »

He might also just be accepting a little bit of tear gas exposure anyway. Vasline wont keep out nerve agents, but then that is what the hood and full suit are for. The Indian army meanwhile, well they have pretty bad equipment, they didn't really train for chemical warfare until very recently and may in fact have just not cared. They've been willing to take more then two decades just to buy new towed howitzers after all, even if it means dozens of units are under equipped or using actual WW2 vintage stuff. China didn't equip its troops with full NBC protective gear for a long time, and Pakistan has never been in a reasonable position to use chemical weapons so the threat was kind of limited. Different situation from the US vs must be ready for any war anywhere.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Aaron MkII »

The ones in the pic are bigger then the CFs, might make it easier to seal then the narrow strip we had. With the vaseline.

I wonder if he would have an easier time with our head piece though, it was almost like pantyhose in the top and back.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

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Phantasee wrote:Almost every man in there over 25-30 that came from India has lived under a government that has done so much to kill them and destroy their communities. They're not strangers to a fight.
You DO know that there have been Sikhs in this country since the 19th Century, right? Quite a few of those men in that 25-30 age range didn't come from India, they were born and raised right here in America. I can't call them "foreigners" when their family has been in the US longer than mine has. They might have visited India, but they haven't lived there, "under a government" that oppressed them. Quite a few of them have probably never been outside the US in their lives, just like other Americans.

This gets right back to the notion that brown people somehow aren't "real" Americans. They are. They've been here for generations.
Phantasee wrote:@Broomstick: Sikhi isn't a warrior religion, not quite,
Not at all, actually.
..but Sikhs consider themselves Warrior-Saints.
And a lot of Christians consider themselves God's Soldiers and the Jews think they're the Chosen People and so on and so forth.
There's an interesting combination of spiritual and temporal responsibility in Sikh teachings. Sikhs have a duty to act whenever they see injustice, including attacks on innocents. Sikhs are very aware of their own history, and remember well the many attempted genocides and mass murders of their people throughout history.
Blah, blah, blah... do they have mandatory military training? No. Do they insist on physical self-defense training for their kids/teens/young adults? No.

Sure, there is a tradition of Sikhs serving in a military capacity. You can say that about a lot of other people. Ditto for the whole act against injustice, etc. You have a lot of Sikh docotrs, too, but no one is attributing some magical medical ability to them due to their religion. Lots of people are aware of their own history and remember attempted genocides and mass murders. NONE of that makes the Sikhs some elite group of superhumans or “born warriors”.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Aaron MkII »

Do yank troops carry the bunny suit all the time on deployment or do they stick in a barrack box and forget it like we do? Unless there is a credible nbc threat.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Lonestar »

Onboard ship the "bunny suits" are only in repair lockers. In the AG and GOO you have to carry your gas mask in the little satchel with you at all times though.

The entire ship is suppose to be buttoned down in case of a chemical attack, and only trained personnel are suppose to go outside in bunny suits to check the conditions.

It's always great for you to be buttoned down in a chemical warfare drill, go through a storm, and see water leak in.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

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Don't tell me what you think you know about the Sikh Diaspora, please.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Aaron MkII »

Yeah we had to have the mask at all times too.

And I've heard the same about our ships. Good argument to be on the subs.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by ArmorPierce »

Aaron MkII wrote:Do yank troops carry the bunny suit all the time on deployment or do they stick in a barrack box and forget it like we do? Unless there is a credible nbc threat.
Every other nationality has people arguing that their nationality has a innate spirit that makes them superior at this or that or makes them a warrior people. The turks thinks the same, arabs think the same, americans think the same and the israelis think the same, basically any ultra nationalistic people thinks the same.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Lonestar wrote: It's always great for you to be buttoned down in a chemical warfare drill, go through a storm, and see water leak in.
That sounds wonderful, but in fairness the overpressure, if the ship even has that, isn't supposed to be more then a fraction of a pound per square inch. So water under any kind of pressure should easily leak through gaps that chemical vapor never would. In theory anyway. Hopefully a storm washes off most of the nerve gas before the leaks start.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

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This isn't fucking Testing! So the lot of you had better cut out the goddamn Klingon/Viking bullshit +1 post pissing contest right now.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

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Stupid Viking bullshit dumped into the Barrel. Please don't make me do it again, I don't like to be angry. It ups my blood pressure and I become cranky.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Thanas »

Also, the attack on the Golden Temple is a more complex situation than "Government seeks to destroy Sikhs".
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by ArmorPierce »

The argument over sikhs being super soldiers aside, what's up with this statement that most sikhs in the usa are farm laborers?

I know plenty of sikhs out here in jersey new york area and they are mostly professionals, doctors and business owners.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Phantasee »

How many farms are in the Jersey New York area? IIRC a lot of Sikhs settled in California, and worked on the farms there. You see the same thing with early Sikhs in BC, they worked the farms of the Lower Mainland or the mills of the interior. East coast Sikhs are more likely to be urban professionals.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

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Dominated the BC trucking industry as well, I grew up in BC and remember Sikhs labouring at the blueberry farms, which they eventually bought.

The one and only Sikh i know in Ontario is actually my GP. Wonderful man.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

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Aaron MkII wrote:Dominated the BC trucking industry as well, I grew up in BC and remember Sikhs labouring at the blueberry farms, which they eventually bought.

The one and only Sikh i know in Ontario is actually my GP. Wonderful man.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

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General practitioner, family doctor.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

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Aaron MkII wrote:General practitioner, family doctor.
ah thanks, I wasn't familiar with that specific acronym so that's why I asked.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Thanas »

OK guys, no more off topic.

I do not want to lock this, but if people do not get back to the shooting and continue to let this thread meander (a crime I myself am guilty of, I admit), this will be the inevitable outcome. So no more off-topic, this is about the shooting, and the shooting only.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Phantasee »

Over 100 people at a candlelight vigil tonight in Edmonton. The youth group putting it together organized it well, they spent an hour discussing how the events had affected them and what their thoughts and feelings were. The Deputy Premier showed up, as well as a couple other MLAs and a city councillor. It was the youth that impressed me, though. A lot of people under 30 out tonight to show solidarity with the victims of this attack. Wasn't all Sikhs out, I saw a few Muslims out, Christians, etc.

One thing that really moved me was how there was no "we're Sikhs not Muslims", everyone seemed to emphasize that it would have been wrong no matter who was attacked, and it's not productive to differentiate Sikhs from Muslims if that normalizes violence against Muslims.

Good group of kids out here.

EDIT: I should mention, this was over 100 people out despite an impending severe thunderstorm that broke over us towards the end.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

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Another person who deserves credit is the Sikh gentlemen who seemed to be a high-up official amongst the American Sikh community, who was being interviewed by an Indian channel. The interviewer ranted a bit about "racism" in America etc etc, only to be gently corrected by this person. The Sikh representative pointed out that the man who took 7/8 bullets and prevented further deaths of people in the temple was white too, and it's not fair to stereotype a country based on the actions of one man.

Lots of grace under trying circumstances.

Some Indian TV channels have handled the issue well (CNN-IBN and NDTV) while others (Times NOW) have been absolutely horrendous. If nothing I've confirmed which channels I'm going to permanently avoid.
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Phantasee »

Lt Brian Murphy was shot 9 times, including once in the face/neck.
Disparate heroes in Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting
A Sikh temple leader and a police officer pay dearly for their acts of bravery in the midst of a gunman who opened fire on the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin.
By Kim Murphy, Los Angeles Times

August 6, 2012, 8:52 p.m.
OAK CREEK, Wis. — They couldn't have come from two more different worlds: One of them, Lt. Brian Murphy, a classic New York-style cop with more than two decades on the streets. The other, Satwant Singh Kaleka, a deeply religious native of India who came to the U.S. as an impoverished immigrant and made his way up buying gas stations.

Yet here they were, both cut to the ground and shedding blood at different parts of the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin on Sunday. Both had come up against the gunman whose murderous path ultimately left six people dead. Murphy was armed with a police weapon, Kaleka with a butter knife. Both paid dearly, Kaleka with his life, Murphy nearly so — he lies critically wounded in a hospital, but is expected to survive.

The pain of tragedy seems always to be accompanied by a search for a compensating story of courage. In Oak Creek, there are two such accounts. The public has seized on Murphy and Kaleka as the heroes, their desperate bids to halt the gunman's rampage being told and retold in community halls, in newspapers and on talk radio programs.

FBI agents hugged Kaleka's son before telling him how his 65-year-old father had confronted the much younger gunman with the knife, keeping him away from his wife and other temple followers.

The Sikh community, for its part, started a Facebook page for "Sikhs expressing EXTREME gratitude to Lt. Brian Murphy" in appreciation for urging fellow officers to help the wounded inside the temple despite having been shot nine times at close range.

"You are a selfless hero," wrote Simi Burn Bassett.

Amardeep S. Kaleka, 34, of Los Angeles said his father had always believed strongly that America was going to be a place of new opportunities for him, his wife and his two boys when he arrived from India's Punjab region and settled in northern Milwaukee in the early 1980s.

He got a job working at a family member's gas station, Kaleka said. "He started working a third shift for an uncle and worked his butt off, 16, 18 hours a day. Then he went on to rent one, and then to own one, and at the end, he owned something like eight gas stations.… All with hard work. No tricks. Hard work."

Kaleka chastised his sons when they complained about discrimination or ill treatment, Amardeep Kaleka said. "He put the largest American flag right on the front lawn, and if you go there, you'll see the flag there. It looks like it was stolen from an elementary school standing there, it's so big," he said.

"We came home and we said, 'It's an eyesore; this thing is going to make us look foolish here.' And he said, 'You're an American now. You push the American dream. Study and knowledge and education, that's what's going to lead us forward.' "

Kaleka said his father used much of his earnings from the gas stations to help build the new Sikh temple, which opened in July 2007, not only with the help of his savings, but the pledges of 24 other community members who put up their houses as collateral for the loan on the property. The elder Kaleka became the president of the temple.

On the day of the attacks, Kaleka said, his father went to the temple much earlier than usual. Law enforcement agents told him a trail of blood led toward the kitchen from where the temple president confronted the gunman, suggesting Kaleka's knife may have wounded the attacker, though this has not been confirmed. Kaleka's wife was hiding in terror in a pantry.

"During the battle he took two wounds, but he was able to hold him off," the son said. "He was doing his best to keep that guy away and get them to security."

The gunman's next roadblock was Murphy, a 51-year-old New York native who still talked with the accent and confidence of a New Yorker. He has served 21 years with the Oak Creek force and was one of three finalists for police chief the last time the job came open. He had received a commendation in 2004 for an investigation into suspected sabotage of electrical lines, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

Oak Creek Police Chief John Edwards told reporters Murphy was "ambushed" as he approached the shooting scene.

"He was in very close proximity to the shooter. When he arrived, he came upon someone who was injured, and he was going to assist that individual when the shooter came around him, close to his squad car, and hit him at a close distance," Edwards said at a news conference Monday.

Other officers opened fire and killed the gunman, but when they attempted to help Murphy, he told them to go help the other victims first.

"He had been shot nine times — one of them very serious in the neck area — and he waved them off and told them to go into the temple to assist those in there," Edwards said.
Police administrators have declined further interviews about the confrontation pending the investigation, as have the officers themselves. James Palmer II, executive director of the Wisconsin Professional Police Officers Assn., which represents Oak Creek officers, said they had made it clear they didn't want to be the subject of folk tales.

"The officers at this point are really not interested in being viewed as heroes. They feel as though they were simply doing their job, and they are confident that any one of their colleagues would have acted in the same manner. For that reason, they don't view themselves as extraordinary," Palmer said.

"While I run the police association, I'm not a police officer, and I have to say I find that kind of extraordinary myself," he said. "Incredible, actually."
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Re: 7 Dead in Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Post by Phantasee »

I think it's worth looking at who the victims were, instead of assuming things about them:


Satwant Kaleka, 62
Image
Kaleka immigrated to the U.S. in the early 1980s with $35 and worked his way up to owning several gas stations, according to his son, Amardeep S. Kaleka, 42, of Los Angeles.

The elder Kaleka, the temple president, had come for Sunday morning prayers. When he heard gunshots, his son said, he "grabbed the nearest knife" – reportedly a butter knife -- and ran toward the sound.

"He tried to tackle the gunman," the son said. It was not clear whether Kaleka wounded the attacker, but investigators told the son "he slowed him down." That may have allowed other congregants to escape.

Kaleka was shot at least twice in the hip, his son said. He dragged himself away as the gunman left to continue his attack.

The son said a priest comforted his father, who murmured prayers as he bled. The priest called the son, but ambulances could not reach them in time. "He bled out," the son said.

"He did his best to protect this temple," the younger Kaleka said. "This was like his child."

The victim’s brother, Jagit Singh Kaleka, 67, said he sponsored him in 1982 when he immigrated to the U.S. Although they faced discrimination "on a daily basis," Jagit Singh Kaleka said, his brother never lost sight of his "American freedom dream."



Sita Singh, 41
Image
Singh moved to Wisconsin from New York City about six months ago to serve as a priest at the temple. His older brother, Ranjit Singh, also served as a priest and also died in the attack. Both men had lived at the temple.

According to the Associated Press, the temple's secretary, Inderjeet Singh Dhillon, said that the younger Singh made sure guests were well fed, even if he couldn't always express it in English. Dhillon said that when five English-speaking visitors stopped by, Singh insisted — using only gestures that made fellow temple members laugh — on “food for everybody.”

Dhillon told the AP that the younger Singh would wake up every morning between 4:30 and 5 to read the Sikh holy book. Afterward, he would see which visitors had come in and ensure all had prasad, the food offering given at the end of every prayer session.

“It was very important to him that whoever came always left with prasad,” Dhillon told the AP.





Ranjit Singh, 49
Image
In a news report on Indian television about the bloodshed in Wisconsin, female relatives are seen wailing over his death in India. Among them sits a teenage boy holding a photograph, quietly crying and staring down at the image of his father, clad all in purple.

Gurvinder Singh, 16, never met his father. The boy was 7 months old when Singh left India for the United States, according to NDTV. The station reported that Singh had hoped to secure a green card and that his family could join him someday. Singh’s younger brother, Sita, was also among those killed at the temple.

NDTV reported that Gurvinder had been looking forward to meeting his father, who planned to travel to India in November for the holiday of Diwali. During the festival, oil lamps are lighted to symbolize the triumph of good over evil.







Suveg Singh Khattra, 84
Image
A farmer from Punjab, Khattra and his wife, Nachattra Kaur Khattra, came to the United States from India in 2004 and lived with his son and his family.

He was a devoted worshiper who passed time at home listening to holy readings on television and radio, said his granddaughter, Sandeep Kaur Khattra, 24.

Khattra found comfort and companionship at the temple, attending every day. He liked to arrive early to pray, chat or prepare food. When no one from his family was available around dawn to take him — which his son, a cab driver, often did — he would walk the two miles.

Like Prakash Singh, another victim, he often volunteered in the kitchen. “He was a very religious guy, a very honest person,” Inderjeet Singh Dhillon, a temple member said. “And he never forgot to make a cup of tea for everyone. He’d say, ‘Wait a minute, don’t go, I have tea for you.’”

His days at the temple grew longer when his wife died in 2010, his granddaughter said: Usually, he stayed from early morning until midafternoon.

“I think that's where he felt at peace,” she said. “That's where he wanted to be.”



Prakash Singh, 39

Singh came to the U.S. from northern India nine years ago and had been working at the temple as a priest, worshipers said.

He had been waiting to get his green card so he could bring his wife and three children from India, according to Inderjeet Singh Dhillon, the temple speaker and secretary (no relation to the Prakash Singh).

Sikh men traditionally take the name Singh, meaning lion; women take the name Kaur, meaning princess.

Prakash Singh, who lived at the temple, was known for helping in the kitchen and being attentive, the temple secretary said. “He never forgot to make a cup of tea for everybody,” she said. He called him “a very religious guy, a very honest person, dedicated every day to his job.”



Paramjit Kaur, 41

The only woman killed in the attack on the temple, Kaur was the mother of two sons, ages 18 and 20. Kaur and her husband immigrated from India’s Punjab region about five years ago. The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reported that she lived in Oak Creek and worked at BD Medical Systems, a factory that makes medical instruments and reagents.

The Associated Press reported that friends described her as outspoken and sweet and devoted to her faith and family. She worked long hours at the factory — often 11 hours a day, 6 days a week — to provide for her family.

Manpreet Kaur, no relation, said that when she gave birth to her son this year, Kaur would visit her in the hospital after she got off work. Kaur would bring food for the new mother.

“She always knew what I needed and would bring it for me,” Manpreet Kaur told the AP.

From LA Times.
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