Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

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PainRack
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by PainRack »

For more details.
http://www.chron.com/opinion/editorials ... 467650.php
The Houston Community College system has never figured more prominently in this region's economic future than it does today. HCC voters gave the often troubled institution a ringing vote of confidence last fall with their approval of a $425 million bond issue. The bonds will fund a health care education college in the Medical Center, as well as upgrades in facilities across the system.

Prior to voter approval last November, the HCC board took the extraordinary step of passing a resolution assuring voters and entities such as the Greater Houston Partnership of its commitment to keep an appropriate distance from the bidding process for contracts.

As longtime Houstonians will recall, HCC's history has been marred by episodes of HCC board members using their influence improperly to steer contracts to favored parties - whether relatives, friends or political allies.

Since last August, when those board assurances were given, the leadership and some of the make-up of the board has changed. Chancellor Mary Spangler has had her contract bought out and has left. A leader on the prior board, Mary Ann Perez, won election to the Texas House and departed. Former HCC board chair Richard Schechter, a strong voice for reform, has resigned.

Meanwhile, the board's commitment to arm's length regarding contracts has been all but forgotten. Board members seeking to require contracts to give preference to Houston-based bidders on construction of new facilities and other major tasks have made an end run around the resolution by pushing for changes in state law to allow for those preferences to be created.

Meanwhile, the letting of contracts for the improvements outlined in the bond issue has been postponed, presumably in hopes that the Texas Legislature would fix things to the board majority's liking.

This just smells.

The last time we wrote about the HCC board and its troubles, we said we'd be watching and urged community leadership groups such as the Greater Houston Partnership to do likewise. We have watched, and so has the Partnership. We're not happy with what we're seeing.

Reneging on its commitment to voters not to meddle in the procurement process doesn't cut it. Fortunately, it appears the bill is stalled and just about dead in Austin. The Partnership says it would prefer to put the matter off until next session, in 2015. We're less kindly disposed: Let's drive a stake through the heart of this bill and bury the idea for good.

While we're at it, let's put off naming a new chancellor until after next November's election, when no less than five of the board's nine members are up for re-election.

We've seen enough evidence of an appetite for mischief to have real misgivings about the current board's judgment to entrust it with a chancellor search and selection.

There's plenty else to do, starting with keeping the promise to stay out of it as bids are let for new facilities. Time's wasting, and thousands of students who will become part of tomorrow's skilled work force are waiting patiently for completion of the new medical and engineering facilities to come.

We'll be watching.
The HCC has been mired in troubles, from funding to accusations of corruption.
On Friday, Houston news station KHOU reported on the surprising election of Dave Wilson, a white anti-gay activist who beat a 24-year incumbent in a heavily Democratic and African-American district at least in part by pretending to be black. That story has blown up, but what few outlets are noting is that Wilson is a longtime and, heretofore, unsuccessful foe of the college system he has just joined.

During his run for District II trustee of the Houston Community College System, Wilson’s campaign materials never showed his face. Instead, they featured black families beside the words, “Please vote for our friend and neighbor Dave Wilson.” One mailer crowed, “Endorsed by Ron Wilson,” suggesting the support of a former state representative who is African American. But actually the endorsement came from Wilson’s cousin Ron, who lives in Iowa.

Wilson, an electrician known locally for nuisance lawsuits and homophobia, doesn’t deny his intent to mislead. “Every time a politician talks, he’s out there deceiving voters,” Wilson told KHOU.

But besides being non-representative of his district politically and racially, Wilson joins the ranks of conservative neophytes elected to political bodies they openly despise. At a tea party event in October of last year, Wilson delivered a 76-slide presentation on why voters should reject the $425 million bond proposal to fund HCC, the gist of which was that enrollment was down and money is expensive. Despite his heroic PowerPoint, that bond passed. In 2011, Wilson sued the HCC trustees to prevent the purchase of land Wilson claimed was overpriced. The suit was summarily dismissed with prejudice and Wilson had to pay court costs.

Most of Wilson’s 20 years of relapsing-remitting political activity in Houston has gone like that. But he has had one other taste of victory. Before turning his eye on HCC, Wilson fought homosexuality. In 2001, he gathered enough signatures to put a referendum on the ballot denying benefits to same-sex partners of city employees. That referendum passed. He followed up by running for mayor on an anti-gay platform, sending out tens of thousands of mailers saying Annise Parker, who is gay, should not be mayor because “homosexual behavior leads to extinction.”

In 2009, Wilson’s homophobia took a pitying stance. In one flier, he said, “I have nothing but compassion, respect, and sensitivity toward those trapped in homosexual behavior.” But by the time Parker won a second term, Wilson had gotten uglier. A capture of campaign website from December of 2011 features a Bible verse from Romans over an unsigned cartoon of Parker high-fiving Jerry Sandusky while saying, “You’re hired!”

The electorate that, perhaps inadvertently, elected Wilson last week also granted Parker a third mayoral term.

Wilson hinted at his new campaign strategy during his last failed run. Perhaps sensing that gay-bashing had lost its value as an electoral tool, Wilson released a statement two days before the 2011 election stating that he was not in the Ku Klux Klan, that Parker’s camp had spread a rumor to that effect, and that he had been a member of the NAACP for several years.

How much Wilson’s racial subterfuge helped him in last week’s election is unknown. The HCC system has been plagued by poor performance, and other trustees were forced into runoffs. But the effect could have been tiny and still decisive. Wilson beat incumbent Bruce Austin by only 26 votes in a race with more than 11,000 cast. Austin has asked for a recount, but with electronic voting, a reversal seems unlikely. An HCC trustee term is six years.
Wilson actions against the college happened in the last two years!

You literally couldn't have known that the man didn't exist if you were a stakeholder. Now, its entirely possible that this was a protest vote and the racial campaign HELPED the protest vote to emerge. Just look at the angle.
HCC is in trouble.
We have a guy who been campaigning against the 'corruption' in the system.
He presents himself as someone on your side, willing to lead.

Sounds like a good candidate, eh? At least, he's not Bush/Austin.

But none of this STILL changes the fact that if any of the 26 votes margin was won by Wilson racial campaign, the voters SHOULD be mocked for not doing their due diligence in working. Again, this isn't a mayoral campaign where his actions will inevitably affect yours. Its an election for a COMMUNITY college. If you're that interested in campaigning for an issue, you should be bothered to do due diligence.


Or are we no longer mocking the dihydrogen monoxide crowd for not doing due diligence?
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

Treating everyone equally in a system that invisibly privileges the oppressor as the default and correct while pretending it's just an unbiased standpoint ends up not only perpetuating existing bigotries but solidifies them by removing any ability to examine them openly.

So no, "treating everyone equally" is not in fact the best way forward to end bigotries, no matter how simple and thus appealing it sounds. Again, this is basic, 101-level stuff.

Are you one of those people who thinks affirmative action is wrong because it's "racism"? After all all racism is bad, right?

Except even with affirmative action in place, black people who are more qualified get hired less than lesser qualified white people, get less scholarship money despite having scholarships set up specifically for black students, and earn significantly less than their equally-qualified white cohorts.

If we "treat everyone equally" in the naïve sense you are proposing, then all of those get worse!
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Ralin »

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:Treating everyone equally in a system that invisibly privileges the oppressor as the default and correct while pretending it's just an unbiased standpoint ends up not only perpetuating existing bigotries but solidifies them by removing any ability to examine them openly.

So no, "treating everyone equally" is not in fact the best way forward to end bigotries, no matter how simple and thus appealing it sounds. Again, this is basic, 101-level stuff.
No, it really doesn't. And if you seriously believe that it's okay base decisions like who should serve in public office on the color of someone’s skin than you're the racist here. Not me.
Are you one of those people who thinks affirmative action is wrong because it's "racism"? After all all racism is bad, right?
Eh, affirmative action essentially boils down to social engineering to increase the number of educated, successful members of a given minority group so that there'll be a domino effect helping others. It's getting close to racism and I don't entirely agree with how it's been done, but I don't have a problem with the idea of it.
Except even with affirmative action in place, black people who are more qualified get hired less than lesser qualified white people, get less scholarship money despite having scholarships set up specifically for black students, and earn significantly less than their equally-qualified white cohorts.

If we "treat everyone equally" in the naïve sense you are proposing, then all of those get worse!
No, it gets worse if we go down the route you're advocating, because it perpetuates the idea that it's okay to treat people like avatars of their ethnicity. My way would end that because it would lead to people not fucking discriminating in favor of equally qualified white people.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

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PainRack wrote:AGAIN. If you DIDN"T bother to investigate the credentials of your chosen candidate, don't fucking vote!
You know, I can't help but hear overtones of 'it's her fault, she should have worn longer skirt and lose the make-up, the whore' :roll:

Some people have problems formulating informed choice even without candidates lying. With them doing so, it becomes a real threat to democracy. Certain European countries even go so far to nominate election judges just before voting to ensure speedy, immediate trial if one candidate sues another accusing him of lie (and if he is found in one, he receives order of speedy redress, too). So, sorry, I will keep placing blame on a liar who is rotten enough to publicly gloat about it.
Ralin wrote:No, it really doesn't. And if you seriously believe that it's okay base decisions like who should serve in public office on the color of someone’s skin than you're the racist here. Not me.
I like how you ignored my question, so here, have it again: given two equally skilled candidates, one of your skin color, one of different, which one are you going to pick? Honest answer, please.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

Ralin wrote:
Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:Treating everyone equally in a system that invisibly privileges the oppressor as the default and correct while pretending it's just an unbiased standpoint ends up not only perpetuating existing bigotries but solidifies them by removing any ability to examine them openly.

So no, "treating everyone equally" is not in fact the best way forward to end bigotries, no matter how simple and thus appealing it sounds. Again, this is basic, 101-level stuff.
No, it really doesn't.
Why?

Is it because your gut says it doesn't? Where are you coming from that goes against decades of analysis of institutionalised power structures? That goes against study after study that shows that people who are "race blind" are massively racist compared to people who understand and accept that race exists as a social construct that has consequences? That goes against the fact we can all see that women are not legally discriminated against yet end up massively disadvantaged in professional society because we're not trained to act the way society deems is "professional" (in a masculine sense, but that's the unstated and unexamined part)?
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

Ralin wrote:
Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:Do you think everyone has the same access to the Internet and free time to do it? Has the same instinctive mindset to immediately look up candidates online? Is able to find sufficient information (everything google finds now is either related to this news story or is his own website. remember, local candidates with no active political history don't necessarily have a strong web presences)?
No, but I do think that if they don't have those things they should do the right thing and not vote, and I feel perfectly comfortable mocking them when they vote anyway and it blows up in their racist faces.
This post is old but I was thinking about it earlier today.

We have a situation where unequal access to information is combined with the allowance of candidates and those speaking on their behalf to openly deceive and lie, and your solution isn't to try to rein in the freedom to deceive on the part of the candidates but to demand a restriction on voting in some jim crowesque standard that people who lack all the resources of society don't deserve to vote?
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

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Irbis wrote: I like how you ignored my question, so here, have it again: given two equally skilled candidates, one of your skin color, one of different, which one are you going to pick? Honest answer, please.
If I got two equally skilled and qualified candidates and I was hiring for something like the police where having minority members of the workforce is important for public relations or something like that? Probably I'd flip a coin or something.

I’m making serious plans to emigrate to China once I have my master’s degree. You’re not going to have much luck proving that I have a problem with people who don’t look like me.
Grandmaster Jogurt wrote: Is it because your gut says it doesn't? Where are you coming from that goes against decades of analysis of institutionalised power structures?
Because endless reflection and calculating how much ‘privilege’ someone has or speculating on whether someone’s skin color is going to make them more sympathetic to X minority doesn’t work. Obama’s black; have you seen him doing a whole hell of a lot to help black people in the US as president?
That goes against study after study that shows that people who are "race blind" are massively racist compared to people who understand and accept that race exists as a social construct that has consequences?
I know I’m not “race blind!” I know damned well that I react differently to black people and that race has a huge influence on our lives, and that’s why I say it’s important not to empower that construct with more racism
That goes against the fact we can all see that women are not legally discriminated against yet end up massively disadvantaged in professional society because we're not trained to act the way society deems is "professional" (in a masculine sense, but that's the unstated and unexamined part)?
And you think the answer to that is what? Give women extra privileges and protections and hope that’ll balance it out? You can lessen those advantages by being aware how you’ve been conditioned to be a sexist and overcoming them, and convincing other people to do the same. Not by trying to turn the tables and give the other party a taste of their own medicine.
We have a situation where unequal access to information is combined with the allowance of candidates and those speaking on their behalf to openly deceive and lie, and your solution isn't to try to rein in the freedom to deceive on the part of the candidates but to demand a restriction on voting in some jim crowesque standard that people who lack all the resources of society don't deserve to vote?
My solution is to not vote if you don’t know what you’re talking about. It’s not a complicated concept, and I have every faith that people of all races and ethnicities can grasp it. I’d say the same thing about my grandmother’s last minute decision to vote for McCain because someone convinced her that Obama wanted to kill babies.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by AniThyng »

On the general topic of race and misrepresenting oneself, I am reminded of the situation in Malaysia involving the chinese-dominated opposition party DAP - in an effort to appear more like a true multi-racial Malaysian party, one of the key frontmen now is a person named Zairil Khir Johari - the stepson of a former respected education Minister - and he is presented as a Malay Muslim willing to work within a party that the governing Malay party characterizes as a chinese chauvinist, racist party.

Unfortunately for this narrative, Zairil himself is ethnically Chinese - his mother married the late Khir Johari when he was 12, and it was at that point onwards that he adopted his Malay name and ostensibly adopted Islam. And I suspect being the stepson of a member of the massively priviledged malay elite hardly confers upon one any real experience of the actual malay experience.

But it is convenient for the DAP to present him as a representative of Malays in their party when he is nothing of the sort.

I've talked about it before on this board, but viewed from the lens of western social justice, I am unclear of the Chinese in Malaysia position - I guess the closest comparision is with Jews - a minority that while wealthy and educated, is excluded directly from the actual political power structures*...

*and like Jews, most Chinese will never be obscenely wealthy bankers who can control the destiny of thousands with a single phone call.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by AniThyng »

Okay, Einstein, answer one question first - given two equally skilled candidates, one of your skin color, one of different, which one are you going to pick? Oh, wait, it's racism only when minorities do it, when privileged imbecile does it's just "informed choice" despite being racist according to his own stupid definition, too :roll:
This sounds like a particularly loaded question - if I had two equally skilled candidates, one a Chinese and one a Malay, which one should I, as a Chinese hiring manager pick? If I choose the Chinese, I will be villified as racist - if I choose the Malay, on the basis that he is Malay, I am choosing him literally for the colour of his skin as the deciding factor - and you can keep loading the question - Maybe the Chinese candidate is from a poor rural family who dumped all their life savings to send him to study in Australia while the Malay is from a elite political family with 4 BMWs. Or maybe the Chinese candidate is the scion of a wealthy family of bankers and the Malay is the son of farmers who managed to study in the UK on a hard earned government scholarship.

Fuck if I know what's the "correct" choice.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by aerius »

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:We have a situation where unequal access to information is combined with the allowance of candidates and those speaking on their behalf to openly deceive and lie, and your solution isn't to try to rein in the freedom to deceive on the part of the candidates but to demand a restriction on voting in some jim crowesque standard that people who lack all the resources of society don't deserve to vote?
Something to think about here. Will the people who were conned stand up and do something productive about it? We have a situation here where a slimy politician pulled an epic con job to get himself into power. What will the people do about it? Are they going to have mass protests in front of the buildings until the board removes him & passes election reforms to make election campaigns honest or are they just going to complain to the media for a week or 2 while going about their lives as usual?

Or to use a personal example. My city has an alcoholic crackhead mayor (now with hookers too) who's in the middle of a scandal with calls for him to resign. Ok, great, I want him gone, so what should I do? I can post shit on social networks & the internet about how he's an asshole and should be removed, which I guess is good venting but it ain't gonna do much. Or I can use those same channels to organize a dozen of my friends, a few hundred of their friends, and on down the line until we have thousands of people to stalk our major around & heckle him 'round the clock wherever he goes, and make his life a living hell to force his resignation.

Bottom line is we just can't whine & complain and expect shit to fix itself or get better. Whether it's sitting down with a person of influence and having a nice chat, slipping the right person some Benjamins, or taking part in a mass protest, actions need to be taken if we're going to improve our political system.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

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Irbis wrote: You know, I can't help but hear overtones of 'it's her fault, she should have worn longer skirt and lose the make-up, the whore' :roll:
You're FUCKING kidding me? Just how on earth is this victim blaming?
Its the responsibility of a voter to choose wisely. If they chose poorly, then its their responsibility.
Some people have problems formulating informed choice even without candidates lying. With them doing so, it becomes a real threat to democracy. Certain European countries even go so far to nominate election judges just before voting to ensure speedy, immediate trial if one candidate sues another accusing him of lie (and if he is found in one, he receives order of speedy redress, too). So, sorry, I will keep placing blame on a liar who is rotten enough to publicly gloat about it.
I'm sorry, but this is a fucking election for a COMMUNITY COLLEGE.

If you're a stakeholder, its your fucking DUTY to learn about what involved. Its not as if Wilson isn't that visible as an opponent.

Again. This is NOT a vote for mayor or something that will affect everyone living in the city. Its a simple vote where stakeholders have a say in who governs a state community college.


Now, if we were saying that voters should just merely accept the election of Wilson, you MIGHT have a point. But in this case, its Aerius pointing out that the voters didn't do their homework and its ralin saying that using race to determine someone acceptability to you gets you hoisted on your own petard.


And everyone here is loading the question. The REAL question is if I have a Black candidate who been accused of corruption and is one of the leaders leading an institution down the drain and if I have a White candidate who promises to change all that, who should I vote for? Now, what happens if I find out that the White candidate lied about his credentials?


Unfortunately, I'm quite sure the election laws in America doesn't disallow disqualification for lying about one credentials. And in this case, the voters didn't do due diligence. Tough. Anything else is posters trying to twist this as racism, but I will say this again. The REALM problem is that IF, IF voters chose Wilson based on his race and their dislike of Austin, then its endemic of the problem of democracy, namely, one where uninformed voters choose politicians based on their perception of him and the Alpha male as opposed to examining their positions and the issues.

Its NOT a good thing when elections are determined that way. It doesn't fucking matter if he's black or white, if fucking Micahael Steele was running against Hilary Clinton, should blacks vote for Steele just because he's more likely to know the black man point of view? If any woman voted for McCain because of Sarah Palin momma grizzly bear, they're STILL fucking idiots. Oh? They're hoodwinked? Then its society fault because they didn't endorse critical thinking in their voters,
Last edited by PainRack on 2013-11-15 12:19am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by PainRack »

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote: This post is old but I was thinking about it earlier today.

We have a situation where unequal access to information is combined with the allowance of candidates and those speaking on their behalf to openly deceive and lie, and your solution isn't to try to rein in the freedom to deceive on the part of the candidates but to demand a restriction on voting in some jim crowesque standard that people who lack all the resources of society don't deserve to vote?
You're fucking loading the question. Who said anything about not deserving to vote?

Its saying that if an uninformed voter didn't practice due diligence, its HIS responsibility and on HIS head if they elect an unqualified leader.
God Jogurt, do you have any idea how fucking offensive you can be?

You just essentially labeled Ralin, aerius and myself racist and accused us of endorsing voter suppression and denying people the right to vote based on race. Just WHERE the fuck did you learn your manners?
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by PainRack »

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote: This post is old but I was thinking about it earlier today.

We have a situation where unequal access to information is combined with the allowance of candidates and those speaking on their behalf to openly deceive and lie, and your solution isn't to try to rein in the freedom to deceive on the part of the candidates but to demand a restriction on voting in some jim crowesque standard that people who lack all the resources of society don't deserve to vote?
You're fucking loading the question. Who said anything about not deserving to vote?

Its saying that if an uninformed voter didn't practice due diligence, its HIS responsibility and on HIS head if they elect an unqualified leader.
God Jogurt, do you have any idea how fucking offensive you can be?

You just essentially labeled Ralin, aerius and myself racist and accused us of endorsing voter suppression and denying people the right to vote based on race. Just WHERE the fuck did you learn your manners?


Look.

None of us says what Wilson did was RIGHT. We haven't said what should happen to prevent such deception in the future but here's the thing........ neither has YOU.

Right now, its essentially one side saying "Voters should choose wisely, if they didn't, shit like this happen." and the other side saying "look, its ok for voters to choose wrongly because race matters! And not everyone can choose wisely."

Stop inserting odious comments and strawman positions.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by mr friendly guy »

The voters should be mocked for their stupidity (assuming they did vote because they thought he was black), although I will add a caveat that it may be unfair to hold them to such a high standard if they had poor social circumstances, eg poor, uneducated etc.

This of course doesn't excuse the candidate from lying and conning a stupid person, no more than it only becomes wrong if you con a smart person. The Nigerian scammers or the makers of the Secret don't suddenly get off scot free ethically just because they people they conned were fucking idiots.

edit - this wasn't addressed to anyone in particular. Just wanted to put in my 0.02 about what I think about the situation.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

No, no it's not. I am not responsible for those problems and I refuse to accept that it is ever right to discriminate against people on the basis of their skin color. Again, you get rid of racism by not being a racist and treating people differently according to their race. "Privilege" has turned into code for "My opinion matters more because I'm a minority," and that is just plain wrong.
No. That is not what it is at all. It is "I have a set of experiences that you cannot possibly understand, because you have faced No Such Thing Ever. Ergo, I have more information than you."

For example. I am gay. I have been the victim of numerous hate crimes. I know what it is like to to live in fear of being the victim of a hate crime. I know what it is like to be sexually assaulted as a hate crime in public, and have those around laugh instead of help, and the school authorities not report the assault to police as is mandated by law, on account of they themselves hating gay people. I know what it is like to know that someone I was close to was murdered and said murder was called a suicide by police (really hard to commit suicide by way of strapping yourself to a chair and duct taping a bag to one's own head) and pointedly not investigated.

You, by contrast, live a life of relative privilege. You have no idea what any of these things are actually like. You dont know what hate crimes actually do to a target community, because you have never experienced it. You dont know what it is like to be turned down for a job due to an intrinsic characteristic. You dont know what it is like to have to hide who and what you are when traveling through bumblefuck east Texas, for fear that you might get beaten, or tied to a fence post and left to die. You dont have to worry that if someone finds you checking them out that they might hurt you. You dont know what it is like to have someone complain to your employer that you are openly gay at work and they overheard you taking part in a workplace conversation about people's Significant Others, and then be subjected to special "no personal discussion" rules at work that no one else has to follow ever, in order to keep your damn job.

So, when it comes to political candidates, am I more likely to vote gay, unless a gay candidate is diametrically opposed to my other political positions. Sorry, that is just how it is. Why? Because things like anti-discrimination laws and hate crime legislation are important to me, and I cannot count on a straight politician. I just cant. They might be supportive, but they dont have a vested interest in making damn sure such things pass and so the things important to me on the level of my fundamental existence are politically expendable to them. A gay candidate if elected DOES have a vested interest in making sure the things that benefit me get done.

The same is true for race, ethnicity, hell... sex and gender. You dont find men who are willing to endure a fillibuster in the TX state senate to block an anti-abortion bill. Wendy Davis however, did exactly that, because she has a vested interest by way of actually being a woman in such measures failing.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Ralin »

Nice try, but it doesn't work seeing as I'm bisexual and come from Louisiana. Please, tell me more about how privileged I am to have grown up in a trailer park being physically abused by my retarded brother, mister doctoral student who gets paid by his state-funded university to study his interests.

The difference between us isn't privilege. You're just a pretentious coward with a persecution complex. But hey, thanks for proving my point that 'privilege' devolves into an excuse to try to silence others and justify one's own bigotries.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

Damn straight oppressed voices should be given extended priority. Even ignoring how the oppressed people tend to have insight, perspectives, and experiences that others don't and thus have more to offer in a lot of topics, the privileged viewpoint is the one shown everywhere and treated as the true one. The best way to fight that is to give extra weight to those viewpoints ignored by most of society.

Also, you dramatically misunderstand the concept of privilege if you think it's a matter of how good an individual's life is. Again, you reject and dismiss a concept you put no effort into understanding at all. Why is that?
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Ralin »

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:Damn straight oppressed voices should be given extended priority. Even ignoring how the oppressed people tend to have insight, perspectives, and experiences that others don't and thus have more to offer in a lot of topics, the privileged viewpoint is the one shown everywhere and treated as the true one. The best way to fight that is to give extra weight to those viewpoints ignored by most of society.
That's not how equality works.
Also, you dramatically misunderstand the concept of privilege if you think it's a matter of how good an individual's life is. Again, you reject and dismiss a concept you put no effort into understanding at all. Why is that?
I understand it and reject it because it takes a basically sound idea and turns it into an "I win, shut up" button for anytime you want to win an argument with someone who is white, straight or whatever.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ralin, if that's your standard of equality then we can live in perfect equality and still have all the minorities "mysteriously" be miserable, because no one bothers to stick up for them.

There's a huge pre-existing incentive to pander to majorities in a democracy, and to pander to bigoted members of the majority, EVEN IF it means screwing over some other smaller minority group.

If even the minorities don't try to stick up for themselves, they will be predictably and repeatedly screwed over by relatively indifferent majoritarian politicoes.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Batman »

Equality works when everybody actually is treated equally and for the time being and for the US, blacks are not, and last I checked, one of the things a democratic government is supposed to do is look after all its citizens, even those the majority doesn't particularly care about and to the extent that if they are decidedly disadvantaged within the society unfortunately in evidence, they get exceptional treatment as to render them not decidedly disadvantaged anymore.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Nice try, but it doesn't work seeing as I'm bisexual and come from Louisiana. Please, tell me more about how privileged I am to have grown up in a trailer park being physically abused by my retarded brother, mister doctoral student who gets paid by his state-funded university to study his interests.

The difference between us isn't privilege. You're just a pretentious coward with a persecution complex. But hey, thanks for proving my point that 'privilege' devolves into an excuse to try to silence others and justify one's own bigotries.
Oh. You want to get into the pissing contest with me? I got where I am in spite of all the bullshit I have had to put up with. That list of shit? Yeah. That happened. All of it. I have chipped teeth because at one point, someone decided they wanted to make good on Leviticus. On top of that, I grew up in poverty with a religious psycho for a father and you dont want me to get into how bad that got. I worked hard, and took on a titanic quantity of debt.
I understand it and reject it because it takes a basically sound idea and turns it into an "I win, shut up" button for anytime you want to win an argument with someone who is white, straight or whatever.
No. It does not. What it DOES do is lend extra weight to a given argument. If a white person says "structural racism no longer exists, and I dont see why we still need affirmative action in university admissions", and a black person disagrees, and you have no other information, who the fuck are you going to believe?

The person who has the luxury of putting their head in the sand, or the person who has to worry about whether or not they are allowed to walk in a given neighborhood and who has 2/3rds the call-back rate on job applications because their name is Tyrone?

We all live in a Cartesian bubble. We cannot observe all of another person's life. When a female colleague of mine points out the difficulties women have in academia, I listen, because I dont know what they go through, because I am not them. I am male. I dont have to deal with things like having a reduced chance of getting tenure simply because I have to work the double shift of academia and child-care, while at the same time being looked down on by society if I elect not to have children. This is not stuff I experience, ergo, I ought understand my limits.
That's not how equality works.
And when we live in a society when everyone really is equal and all bigotry erased, you will have a point. But we dont live in such a society. I still have to worry about being the victim of a hate crime when I go to my field sites in east texas. Ergo, when I vote, ergo, when I vote, I will up-weight issues important to me. I know another LGBT person has a better chance of some of those issues being personally important to them. Therefore, I know they have a personal stake in fighting for them that a straight but supportive person lacks. Therefore, when given the choice, I will vote for that person unless other considerations apply.

This is the same reasons why veterans like to vote for veterans. Because veterans have a personal stake in making sure their comrades in arms are taken care of after they are discharged. It is not bigotry to recognize this.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Channel72 »

Ralin, you're simply wrong.

As long as we're all sharing personal stories here to gain tolerance-cred: I'm a ridiculously privileged white guy. I'm Jewish, but it doesn't matter because I'm not a visible minority, and I live in New York so whatever. I've never had to deal with anything remotely close to the sort of thing Alyrium is talking about. Most people I interact with are respectful to me, which is awesome.

That being said, I'm a fucking racist asshole. Yeah, it's true, unfortunately. And I suspect a lot more people are in fact, quite a bit more racist than they'd care to admit. It's hard not to be, in America at least. Your brain is wired to make you racist.

You see, every day I walk around New York City. About 5 times a day, on average, a random homeless person asks me for money. Usually, I ignore them (again, I'm an asshole). About 90% of the time, said homeless person is black. Therefore, my brain is conditioned to assume that random black guy talking to me on the street = homeless beggar. The funny thing is, sometimes, a non-homeless black guy will stop me to ask for directions. Yet, my brain is conditioned to think: black skin = homeless guy begging for money. So, I just ignore him and keep walking. If a white, Asian, or Hispanic guy stops me, I'll actually pause to listen to what he has to say. But if he's black, I pretty much automatically assume he's asking for money.

Yeah, I'm pretty much a racist asshole. And I vote Democrat!

The point is, the system is pretty much stacked against black people from the get-go. That will probably change in a few decades, especially after a generation grows up under a black president. But for now, we really need to acknowledge that "racism" is only really meaningful when it is directed towards an historically persecuted "underclass". Black people might have certain prejudicial biases against white people, but who the fuck cares? They have no power over white people. So, really, it's not particularly surprising that they fall back on voting for people of their own skin color. The entire power structure is conditioned to view them as potentially more "threatening", so what choice do they have?? I'm a fucking educated, enlightened, Jewish Democrat, and I'm still more likely to be more threatened by a random black guy I meet on the street in a dark alley than a random white guy I meet in the same dimly-lit alley. It's sad, but true.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

Ralin, and anyone else who posits that True Equality means treating everyone "equally" in the most naïve sense, I'd suggest you look up the writings Iris Marion Young. She has a lot of work specifically on this subject and can probably explain it a lot better than I can.
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by energiewende »

Ralin is the only person making sense in this thread. The huge movement in the US to legitimise discrimination provided it's committed by groups other than those doing it in the 19th century is going to tear the country as it transitions from an overwhelmingly majority white biracial society to a true multiracial society with no majority ethnicity. This sort of thing needs to be stamped down on hard. When US has science PhD students (apparently) saying things like:

"What it DOES do is lend extra weight to a given argument. If a white person says "structural racism no longer exists, and I dont see why we still need affirmative action in university admissions", and a black person disagrees, and you have no other information, who the fuck are you going to believe?"

we are in trouble. This is an explicit affirmation of an ad hominem fallacy. The fact these two people hold contradictory opinions with no substantive argument behind them at all tells us nothing about which one is right!
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Re: Incumbents lose, fallout ensues

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ralin wrote:No, it gets worse if we go down the route you're advocating, because it perpetuates the idea that it's okay to treat people like avatars of their ethnicity. My way would end that because it would lead to people not fucking discriminating in favor of equally qualified white people.
I think the problem here is that you're conflating the end with the means.

In the desired end state, no person would be de facto inferior to any other because of their race. AND no person would be seen as inferior because of their race by any other person.

But that does not mean that we will achieve this goal by deliberately ignoring race at all times and in all places as soon as possible; we cannot necessarily assemble the end state simply by taking all the pieces and shoving them into a shape that vaguely approximates the desired goal.
___________________

I am going to illustrate this with an example.

There was a time when your mode of argument would have been inappropriate. It would even have been harmful to the cause of spreading civil rights to racial minorities. I will discuss that below. Please understand that your mode of argument is closer to appropriate today, and that my argument is that it is not yet appropriate, given the world we actually live in.

Imagine that in 1953, someone had said "there is no Negro rights problem. Negroes have fully separate-but-equal facilities to Whites. Even by bringing this up, you imply that we are punishing Negroes for their race, and that therefore we treat one race differently from another, which serves only to stir up racial tension, and perpetuate this notion that the races must be at odds with one another."

Now, that is obviously, transparently wrong. As a simple matter of fact, conditions for blacks in America in 1953 were not equal. Socially, economically, legally, blacks got the short end of the stick in every way possible.

And when you read the hypothetical argument above, it comes across as an effort to kill the conversation about race and civil rights before it even begins. No one today would buy the idea that "stirring up racial tension" is somehow so bad that it can't be done, even if that is what's needed to make equality become a reality in the first place.
___________________________

Today, saying "we should not concern ourselves with people's race at all, ever, even when asking how best to fight discrimination" strikes me as similarly being an attempt to squash the conversation before anything gets accomplished. It means we basically stop even seeking feedback from the minority group about whether they feel discriminated against, or about whether they feel adequately represented by majority-born politicians who (like their predecessors 60 years ago) claim that everything is just fine and race relations are good.

energiewende wrote:Ralin is the only person making sense in this thread. The huge movement in the US to legitimise discrimination provided it's committed by groups other than those doing it in the 19th century is going to tear the country as it transitions from an overwhelmingly majority white biracial society to a true multiracial society with no majority ethnicity.
No, that is bullshit. What it's going to do is ensure that America does NOT become a class with a hereditary white aristocratic class, presiding over a hereditary white/Asian middle class, presiding over a hereditary black/Hispanic underclass.

Which is where we're headed due to the combination of class stratification (i.e. GINI coefficient) and racial status if we do NOT take steps to break the correlation between race and power in this country. It won't break itself; a passive insistence on meritocracy alone is simply not doing the job.
"What it DOES do is lend extra weight to a given argument. If a white person says "structural racism no longer exists, and I dont see why we still need affirmative action in university admissions", and a black person disagrees, and you have no other information, who the fuck are you going to believe?"

we are in trouble. This is an explicit affirmation of an ad hominem fallacy. The fact these two people hold contradictory opinions with no substantive argument behind them at all tells us nothing about which one is right!
Yes, it does, because one of them has directly experienced the racism.

If a Venezuelan and an Eskimo have an argument about conditions in the Arctic, and they contradict one another, a priori which one do you believe? If your answer isn't "the Eskimo," you're a babbling idiot, and you should shut up and go away instead of trying to participate in a discussion when you explicitly value ignorance as much as knowledge.

But surely you don't do that. Surely you would listen to the Eskimo tell you about arctic survival, not the Venezuelan. And if your answer is "the Eskimo," then you're making exactly the same conclusion you so despise Alyrium for making. You're saying that people who live in a certain environment probably know more about that environment, than people who live somewhere else and have the freedom to ignore that environment.

A Venezuelan pays no direct cost for being ignorant of conditions in the Arctic. They can easily live a full happy life, while having no knowledge whatever of the Arctic. They might be informed about the Arctic, they might even seek such information out on general principles. But there's no penalty for being wrong, so the odds of their having become fully, perfectly informed are very low.

An Eskimo pays huge costs for being ignorant of conditions in the Arctic- they die. They cannot possibly live while remaining ignorant of conditions of the Arctic, because that is where they live every day of their lives. They will make it their business to know every single detail of what it's really like in the Arctic. They will have a vast treasurehouse of knowledge on the Arctic, and on top of that will probably have learned and then forgotten more minor details about life in the Arctic than the Venezuelan ever knew.

There may be exceptions to this rule- maybe the Eskimo is an idiot, and the Venezuelan is a legendary arctic explorer. But as a general rule, it is true that a given person who's lived in the Arctic all their lives knows more about living there than a person who lives somewhere else, and only ever visits the Arctic if they feel like doing so on a lark.

Indeed, this is so obviously true on a common-sense basis that no one would even think to deny it.

Here's the catch. American blacks are to American racism as Eskimos are to the Arctic. They live there. It defines their existence, the terms on which they live, the set of things they can and cannot do. Almost without exception, they know more about it than you. The only conceivable reason they might make false claims about it is if they are complaining- and hell yes they have a right to complain after all the shit they put up with.
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