Ukraine War Thread

[Thanas]

Basically, the protestors won. BAck to the constitution of 2004 and new elections.

Meanwhile, a group of numerous political scientists said that the fascists are only a small part and as far as all their indicators agree, this should not be taken as a fascist makeover. According to them, who claims that has consumed too much bad media and does not really know the Ukraine. See this which was published by one of the left leaning German think tanks.

Make of that what you will.

[fgalkin]

Yeah, the 2004 Constitution. The same one that was forced through after the Orange Revolution and criticized as unconstitutional by the Venice Commission. A great victory for democracy indeed.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Thanas]

Yeah, the 2004 Constitution. The same one that was forced through after the Orange Revolution and criticized as unconstitutional by the Venice Commission. A great victory for democracy indeed.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Do you think the new constitution granting more powers to the presidency would be better?

[fgalkin]

Yeah, the 2004 Constitution. The same one that was forced through after the Orange Revolution and criticized as unconstitutional by the Venice Commission. A great victory for democracy indeed.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Do you think the new constitution granting more powers to the presidency would be better?

There is no "new" constitution. There is the original constitution of 1996. And there are the amendments of 2004, that were struck down as unconstitutional in 2010. The current constitution is the original.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Irbis]

Meanwhile, a group of numerous political scientists said that the fascists are only a small part and as far as all their indicators agree, this should not be taken as a fascist makeover. According to them, who claims that has consumed too much bad media and does not really know the Ukraine. See this which was published by one of the left leaning German think tanks.

Ah, yes, old, extremely overused Maidan cliche "look, we're not extremists" illustrated by photo of some random pretty female student, all while ignoring 50 bald thugs with nazi flags and emblems just off the cadre. I like how the article mentions various groups taking part in the protest, but doesn't list 'gays' among them. Was it too big lie for the author to add them? Oh, but look, stating it was Russia that started war with Georgia in 2008 wasn't. "Specialists", my ass.

Anyway, the article (without a single source) is sort of right - these people are not all fascists. But, having said that, fascists are biggest, best organized group and when it will come to dividing the spoils, they will capture disproportional amount of power and influence over disorganized liberals. They already captured enough guns and money for a small war.

Really, what can some sheltered western activist (who didn't lived entire life in a country where bald extremists weren't harmless photos, but something you encounter on the streets, having to think fast to not become their next victim every time you see one) say about the protest without ever experiencing its parts? True, there are several Ukrainians on the list, but at glance, all of them have Ukrainian names and/or are from the west Ukraine, activists without actual university degree. Not very trustworthy - they couldn't procure signatures of real scientists and members of these allegedly diverse organizations taking part in protests?

By the way, want to see another German left TT with sources? There's this. Make of it what you will.

[Block]

Really, what can some sheltered western activist (who didn't lived entire life in a country where bald extremists weren't harmless photos, but something you encounter on the streets, having to think fast to not become their next victim every time you see one) say about the protest without ever experiencing its parts? True, there are several Ukrainians on the list, but at glance, all of them have Ukrainian names and/or are from the west Ukraine, activists without actual university degree. Not very trustworthy - they couldn't procure signatures of real scientists and members of these allegedly diverse organizations taking part in protests?

You probably didn't mean it this way, but you're not saying activists without university degrees are less trustworthy than those with them are you? Or that a scientist knows anything more about politics than anyone else?

[Kinyo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26299670

Not able to quote the article at the moment but the president has abandoned Kiev and the speaker has been replaced.

[Siege]

Apparently Ukrainian MPs have voted to oust President Yanukovych and hold early presidential elections on 25 May. The opposition is in control of the capital. They claim Yanukovych either resigned or promised to resign; Yanukovych himself has relocated to Kharkov, denies he did anything of the sort and is decrying the events in Kiev as a coup.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Apparently Ukrainian MPs have voted to oust President Yanukovych and hold early presidential elections on 25 May. The opposition is in control of the capital. They claim Yanukovych either resigned or promised to resign; Yanukovych himself has relocated to Kharkov, denies he did anything of the sort and is decrying the events in Kiev as a coup.

According to the BBC, the governors of the east are "taking control of their territories until "constitutional order" is restored in Kiev."

Yeah we have the makings of a break up.

[Thanas]

True, there are several Ukrainians on the list, but at glance, all of them have Ukrainian names and/or are from the west Ukraine, activists without actual university degree. Not very trustworthy - they couldn't procure signatures of real scientists and members of these allegedly diverse organizations taking part in protests?

How?

As for the rest of your post, it is basically a worthless ad hominem from somebody who does not have a degree or expertise in the field, unlike the guys there. If you think the Green party is an organization that loves fascists and covers for them without reason you are an idiot.

By the way, want to see another German left TT with sources? There's this. Make of it what you will.

Lolwhat? This is no think tank. It is a collection of material by people who are too afraid to put their names on the articles. Credibility zero. As for the rest of that website I would characterize them as anything but a fair and balanced look at German foreign policy. Every article on there is aimed at reinforcing the idea that Germany is some evil agent in the world. Which might sync well with your views but is not what any sane person would claim.

[Thanas]

Or to put it bluntly: Are there fascists? Yes. Are the majority of Ukrainians who support the revolution fascists? No.

[Thanas]

Yeah, the 2004 Constitution. The same one that was forced through after the Orange Revolution and criticized as unconstitutional by the Venice Commission. A great victory for democracy indeed.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Do you think the new constitution granting more powers to the presidency would be better?

There is no "new" constitution. There is the original constitution of 1996. And there are the amendments of 2004, that were struck down as unconstitutional in 2010. The current constitution is the original.

Your semantics are noted but you are not answering the question.

[K. A. Pital]

House of former Prosecutor General of Ukraine.

Like I said, I'm not shedding a single tear for them:
http://4ubuk.blogspot.se/2014/02/blog-post_23.html

[Thanas]

But does it beat Janukowitsch's Galleon?

[K. A. Pital]

But does it beat Janukowitsch's Galleon?

Of course. Yanukovich's premises, although obscene, don't fall into the same level of sheer madness. The stars are truly right.

[Melchior]

House of former Prosecutor General of Ukraine.

Like I said, I'm not shedding a single tear for them:
http://4ubuk.blogspot.se/2014/02/blog-post_23.html

The (incredibly limited) amount of books there is very striking.

[Metahive]

I bet he wiped his ass with platinum toilet paper, too. This is that special sort of "splendor" that carries the stench of tackiness seen so often when some tinpot dictator (or South American druglord) is disposed of. It's like they know that the good times will eventually end so they pile on the bling as quickly and massedly as possible.

I wonder, do the Koch brothers or other Western plutocrats live in similar estates?

[K. A. Pital]

I wonder, do the Koch brothers or other Western plutocrats live in similar estates?

Yes, but they are good at hiding the most obscene parts of it. The intellectual elite (IT billionaires) generally shuns this stuff; this is why in the war between old capitalists and new capitalists I support the latter.

[fgalkin]

So, the first order of business of the "reformed" government, is to what? Restore order? Rebuild the police? Try to fix the economy?

It's to repeal the law making Russian an official language. Because "Jewish-Muscovite Mafia"

http://lenta.ru/news/2014/02/23/language/

Yeah, that will go over well.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Melchior]

I wonder, do the Koch brothers or other Western plutocrats live in similar estates?

I know people with Picasso originals and the like on their walls, they either have better taste (generally the case with people with significant art collections) or employ people to make it look like they have better taste (I wouldn't live in that place either).

[K. A. Pital]

So, the first order of business of the "reformed" government, is to what? Restore order? Rebuild the police? Try to fix the economy?

It's to repeal the law making Russian an official language. Because "Jewish-Muscovite Mafia"

http://lenta.ru/news/2014/02/23/language/

Yeah, that will go over well.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

That's worse actually - Russian didn't have a state language status. It had the status of a regional language. For the East, which speaks Russian predominantly. Now it lost even that, so like I said before, the very East of U. won't stay in the "united Ukraine" much longer, parts of it are already falling off, like Crimea.

[Lolpah]

For those looking for an English-langage source, The Guardian also reports on the language issue:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... -eu-russia

One of the first issues the parliament tackled this weekend was that of the language, annulling a bill that provided for Russian to be used as a second official language in regions with large Russian-speaking populations.

Holy shit.

[K. A. Pital]

For those looking for an English-langage source, The Guardian also reports on the language issue:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... -eu-russia

One of the first issues the parliament tackled this weekend was that of the language, annulling a bill that provided for Russian to be used as a second official language in regions with large Russian-speaking populations.

Holy shit.

Holy shit? Is that all you can say, moron? Are you really that fucking dumb to say that now, as if you didn't expect this to happen, fucktard? Did you really not see a horde of radical nationalists at the protests? What did you think could be the solution to an ethnically and linguistically divided nation on the verge of bankrupcy? What did you think these people, who haven't been a part of Russia for the last 400 years before 1939, were going to do to the eastern lands that were never theirs to begin with? Drink vodka together and play some balalaika?

Just where the fuck are you all fucking idiots educated? Have you fucking forgotten Yugoslavia, you stupid worthless shitheads? That's what happens when nationalists are the only real political force outside the oligarchy.

[Steve]

Stas, seriously? Unless you two had some exchange in PMs, the only thing I've seen him say in this thread was asking for you to elaborate on a comment about disintegration. Calling him a moron and fucktard doesn't seem justified.

[K. A. Pital]

Stas, seriously? Unless you two had some exchange in PMs, the only thing I've seen him say in this thread was asking for you to elaborate on a comment about disintegration. Calling him a moron and fucktard doesn't seem justified.

I didn't have an "exchange" with him in PMs. But it was the last straw.

How fucking stupid can a poster be? There's no "holy shit" factor here for anyone who has been following the events. It was a revolution; not just a protest. The government collapsed. Order right at the doors of the Parliament of that sorry state is being upheld by right-wing paramilitaries, police and others dropped weapons and handed entire warehouses full of firearms to them - some before Yanukovich's pathetic Markos-like flight from Kiev, other ones after, when the Western deputees took the Parliament under full control.

The East is de-facto in the process of a separatist riot, and especially Crimea, and at that very moment they prohibit Russian as a regional language; that is no coincidence or surprise, since key right-wing paramilitary leaders said and still are saying that "derussification" is a top priority for the future building of the Ukrainian nation. In a country where half of the population is Russian-speaking.

I understand that people don't have much info outside the BBC; maybe some Russian propaganda on "Russia Today" provides a very lopsided counterpoint (Banderovite nazis yadda yadda), but truth be told, I'm tired of Westerners being completely unable to figure out who is holding the weapons in a civil conflict. Nationalists aren't some fluffy politicians. Nationalists are essentially tribal leaders, apes with frag grenades. If you can't figure out that nationalists would try to crush minorities when they are in the process of "building" an identity for themselves, you are a moron and an idiot. It has nothing to do with whether nationalist idiocy is justified or not; maybe in a nationalist worldview it is, and the West hasn't known anything but.

But being so oblivious is... Just no. Please no.