The Bergdahl Controversy

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Grumman
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Grumman »

SirNitram wrote:The entire 'controversy' can be summed up, however, as manufactured Poutrage that Obama got him back. He MUST be awful, because Obama hates the troops, etc, etc. Even if he is eventually found guilty, there's crazy shit like innocent until proven guilty. And are people seriously suggesting turning our justice system over to the Taliban to handle? No? Then they should shut up.
Not the entire controversy. I hope you agree that there are limits to what should be on the table to free one PFC, yes? If the Taliban had demanded the unconditional surrender of the United States in exchange for his release, for an extreme example, we'd tell them to shove it up their ass.

If it is true that two of the prisoners exchanged are wanted by the UN for being behind the murders of thousands of Afghan religious minorities, exchanging them for one lone grunt should not have been an option. Obama has failed twice - once by not making the trivially easy argument that Fazl and Noori should be removed from indefinite detention to face trial for war crimes, and once by ensuring that they never will face trial by freeing them for a bag of magic beans.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by SirNitram »

Wow, look at all those rebuttals to arguments I didn't make.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Gaidin »

Grumman wrote: Not the entire controversy. I hope you agree that there are limits to what should be on the table to free one PFC, yes? If the Taliban had demanded the unconditional surrender of the United States in exchange for his release, for an extreme example, we'd tell them to shove it up their ass.

If it is true that two of the prisoners exchanged are wanted by the UN for being behind the murders of thousands of Afghan religious minorities, exchanging them for one lone grunt should not have been an option. Obama has failed twice - once by not making the trivially easy argument that Fazl and Noori should be removed from indefinite detention to face trial for war crimes, and once by ensuring that they never will face trial by freeing them for a bag of magic beans.
Eh, whatever. They knew it was coming since 2011 when the five taliban prisoners' names were dropped in the media, and somehow the negotiations stalled, and then a week or two later Bergdahl's parents said it was about their son. Yea. Forgive me for not feeling sympathetic for their anger over trading them for Bergdahl at the end of a conflict, POW for POW.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Grumman »

SirNitram wrote:Wow, look at all those rebuttals to arguments I didn't make.
SirNitram wrote:The entire 'controversy' can be summed up, however, as manufactured Poutrage that Obama got him back.
You tried to reduce the "entire controversy" down to a soundbyte that omitted the most important details. Hell, you didn't even mention the Taliban Five which are the entire reason the Republicans have a leg to stand on. That you didn't make these arguments is why you are wrong.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Simon_Jester »

Put this way: the Republicans have grounds to criticize the administration for choosing to release those particular prisoners, specifically any accused of war crimes by international bodies. I don't mind turning over the Taliban equivalent of senior officers, but I do mind turning over those accused of war crimes.

However, the Republicans do NOT have grounds to conduct a character assassination of Bergdahl when they had previously idolized him, even though his character was as much a matter of public record then as now.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by bilateralrope »

Simon_Jester wrote:Put this way: the Republicans have grounds to criticize the administration for choosing to release those particular prisoners, specifically any accused of war crimes by international bodies. I don't mind turning over the Taliban equivalent of senior officers, but I do mind turning over those accused of war crimes.
Tell me, what steps have the Republicans done to get those specific people formally charged with war crimes and to bring those charges to trial ?

Because if they haven't done anything to try and bring them to a formal trial, I doubt that the Republicans car about the war crimes. Except when they can use them to make Obama look bad.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Elfdart »

Grumman wrote:
Purple wrote:Even ignoring that. You do have to admit that trading 5 for 1 is a rotten deal. Especially if the 5 are high ranking people and the 1 is an infantry sergeant.
He's only a sergeant because he got lost - he was a PFC when he was captured.
Good career move, then.
Zaune wrote:I still find it hard to believe that anyone would voluntarily surrender to the Taliban.
Who says it was voluntary?
TheHammer wrote:
Borgholio wrote:
Do you really think Private Berghardi is the only US serviceman posted to Afghanistan who ever snuck out of camp without permission to go and buy some moonshine or a hooker?
Well yes, because our military is full of upstanding, law-abiding and moral citizens and if you criticize them then you must be liberal scum. :wanker:

Seriously, it happens all the time. One of my wife's friends spent more time high / drunk than sober when he was in Infantry. In a combat zone there are a lot of stressed soldiers who need something to help them relax or let loose. The fact that his own squad-mates are calling him a deserter implies that he actually tried to leave or did something really stupid...rather than go get some booze or a joint. Otherwise they likely wouldn't have thought much about it.
I think a major difference is when he left. I've read he was actually on guard duty when he disappeared. In my mind, that's different than sneaking off when his fellow soldiers weren't counting on him to watch their backs. Granted, a lot of details aren't quite clear on this.
Well the part about six (or was it eight?) men dying because they went looking for him was pretty well debunked in the NYT. A more likely reason for resentment (aside from his growing distaste for the war) is that if he was just sneaking out to score booze/weed/hookers and got caught by the Taliban, then you can bet the whole platoon was put on Double Secret Probation which, in the words of Dean Wormer means "No more fun of any kind!" for them.

If he was on guard duty, there are any number of reasons he might have gone missing and left his rifle behind and none of those involve turning traitor and joining the Taliban at the behest of that Dirty Mooslim Negro Terrist in the White House.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Block »

Elfdart wrote: If he was on guard duty, there are any number of reasons he might have gone missing and left his rifle behind and none of those involve turning traitor and joining the Taliban at the behest of that Dirty Mooslim Negro Terrist in the White House.
I agree with the rest of your post for the most part, but this section couldn't be more wrong. You never just put your weapon down. Ever. It's basically beaten into you from the second you're issued one. I would even have it on me in the bathroom, or while peeing on a tree.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Patroklos »

Where exactly are you guys getting the idea that it is in any way normal to go outside the wire for recreation? I hope it isn't the Hurt Locker...
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Elfdart »

Block wrote:
Elfdart wrote: If he was on guard duty, there are any number of reasons he might have gone missing and left his rifle behind and none of those involve turning traitor and joining the Taliban at the behest of that Dirty Mooslim Negro Terrist in the White House.
I agree with the rest of your post for the most part, but this section couldn't be more wrong. You never just put your weapon down. Ever. It's basically beaten into you from the second you're issued one. I would even have it on me in the bathroom, or while peeing on a tree.
Yes, and there are always fuckups who ignore what's been drummed into their heads. People still slept and/or got drunk on guard duty in the Civil War (and every other war for that matter), when not only was it beaten into them not to do so, but the penalties included floggings and firing squads.
Patroklos wrote:Where exactly are you guys getting the idea that it is in any way normal to go outside the wire for recreation? I hope it isn't the Hurt Locker...
Where are you getting the idea that Bergdahl was normal?
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Simon_Jester »

bilateralrope wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Put this way: the Republicans have grounds to criticize the administration for choosing to release those particular prisoners, specifically any accused of war crimes by international bodies. I don't mind turning over the Taliban equivalent of senior officers, but I do mind turning over those accused of war crimes.
Tell me, what steps have the Republicans done to get those specific people formally charged with war crimes and to bring those charges to trial ?

Because if they haven't done anything to try and bring them to a formal trial, I doubt that the Republicans car about the war crimes. Except when they can use them to make Obama look bad.
So, the argument should not be made, that persons accused of war criminals by international bodies should not be lightly released?

I mean, I agree with you about this other issue you've raised, that the Guantanamo detainees should long, long ago have been formally charged with war crimes if there was any belief they'd committed them.

If accusations have been made in international bodies, they should (long since have been made to) go before those international bodies. They should not be held indefinitely... but they doubly should not be sent home in a routine prisoner exchange.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by bilateralrope »

Oh, I agree that releasing them should not be something done lightly.

But I'm also questioning the motives of anyone who decides that the care about the alleged war crimes now, but didn't care about them before the prisoner transfer was arranged. To me, it looks like neither Obama or the Republicans actually care about the war crimes.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Simon_Jester »

Frankly yes.

It's... frustrating sometimes. Party A does something bluntly stupid and improper. Party B is the only political force in the land that's in any position to criticize them. But Party B is hypocritical to condemn the action, because they were acting just as stupidly and improperly as Party A.

What do you do?

Do you reject Party B's right to make a valid criticism of A because it's hypocritical coming out of their mouth? In that case, Party A may be effectively immune to any meaningful criticism at all, and any check on their power.

Or do you tacitly support Party B's criticism, and partially enable the hypocrisy?
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by bilateralrope »

I don't know.

Though in this case I'm not familiar with the specific charges against these specific people. So I fall back on 'innocent until proven guilty'. That greatly simplifies things. Since the US refuses to charge those 5 with anything, it has no business holding them prisoner. Meaning the US is handing over 5 people who should not be imprisoned in exchange for one POW. Which looks like a good deal for the US.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by SirNitram »

Grumman wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Wow, look at all those rebuttals to arguments I didn't make.
SirNitram wrote:The entire 'controversy' can be summed up, however, as manufactured Poutrage that Obama got him back.
You tried to reduce the "entire controversy" down to a soundbyte that omitted the most important details. Hell, you didn't even mention the Taliban Five which are the entire reason the Republicans have a leg to stand on. That you didn't make these arguments is why you are wrong.
That 'leg to stand on' is a stump. Five guys who were never charged. Never. And had to be returned at the end of the war. Which is fast approaching. So instead of releasing them into the wilds, we get conditions on their release and a soldier back. Again, the 'controversy' is a load of hot air from the experts in hot air.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Well the part about six (or was it eight?) men dying because they went looking for him was pretty well debunked in the NYT.
Ok THIS caught my eye.. I actually had to go and look this up to see if this was true. The whole "People died looking for Bergdahl" thing has been so widely reported on I have not been able to make heads or tales of it. Finally found the link to the NY-TIMES Article And what it seems to boil down to is this:

Shortly after Bergdahl was captured, a lot of people and resources were used to search for him...
To quote the article..
Mr. Bethea wrote that of the six men killed in August and September, two died in a roadside bombing while on a reconnaissance mission, a third was shot during a search for a Taliban political leader and three others were killed while conducting patrols — two in an ambush and one who stepped on a mine.

He suggested some connection to Sergeant Bergdahl for several of the deaths, saying the Taliban leader and a village that was in the area of one of the patrols were “thought affiliated with Bergdahl’s captors.” He also said a village in the areas of the other patrol was “near the area where Bergdahl vanished.”

Still, those villages and insurgents were in the overall area of responsibility for the soldiers, and the logs make clear that the region was an insurgent hotbed. A log on May 21, 2009, for example, said it had historically been a “safe haven” for the Taliban.

A retired senior American military officer, who was briefed at the time on the search for Sergeant Bergdahl, said that even though soldiers were instructed to watch for signs of the missing American, they would have been conducting patrols and performing risky operations anyway.

“Look, it’s not like these soldiers would have been sitting around their base,” he said.

The soldier who spoke on condition of anonymity agreed that it was “ludicrous” to lay 100 percent of the blame for the deaths at Sergeant Bergdahl’s feet, and he acknowledged that patrols were going to get hit in Paktika during fighting season anyway.
Like so many Right Wing Talking points... It seems to have been something started from a few people saying "This is what I FEEL happened" and then was "corroborated" by various people cherry picking information to suite what they think the facts 'should' have been...

Also.. For those looking to wade through the ever increasing flood of Right Wing Misinformation, THIS Article from Salon does a good job at that...

Truthers, birthers, and Kennedy assassination geeks, move over: The sad case of Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl is providing rich fodder for conspiracy theorists everywhere.

America’s last POW was released over the weekend in exchange for five Guantanamo detainees, after nearly five years in captivity.

It has not exactly been a resounding success. Army vets are complaining bitterly about the welcome that Bergdahl seems to be receiving. The young sergeant, they say, is no hero — rather, he should be labeled a deserter.

Meanwhile, conservative politicians and commentators raised the alarm about the “dangerous terrorists” that were exchanged for Bergdahl’s freedom.

Former congressman, retired Army officer and perennial Barack Obama-basher Allen West contributed what might have been the strangest “fact” to the debate.

When Bob Bergdahl, Bowe’s father, spoke at a news conference in the Rose Garden, he uttered an Arabic prayer, words that begin just about every occasion in the Muslim world: “Bismillah ar-rahman ar-rahim.”

Bergdahl senior said it was for Bowe, who was having trouble speaking English after his ordeal. But West insists that it meant that the elder and lushly bearded Bergdahl had “sanctified the White House and claimed it for Islam.” What’s more, Obama smiled when Bergdahl said it, and we all know what that means.

“Folks, there is a lot to this whole episode — like Benghazi — that we may never know,” Westwrites. “And this is not conspiracy theory, it is truth based upon Arabic and Islamic dogma and tradition.”

Before the wackadoos run away with the debate entirely, there are some actual questions that need answering.

1. Is Bowe Bergdahl a hero or a traitor?

Probably neither.

The controversy over Bergdahl’s disappearance has been in the public domain since at least 2012, when Rolling Stone ran a lengthy profile of Bergdahl, complete with reports by his fellow soldiers alleging he walked off base of his own accord on the morning of June 30, 2009.

By all accounts, Bergdahl was a troubled young man, with naive and very unrealistic views on his service in Afghanistan. He thought he was joining “the Peace Corps with guns,” going over to help Afghans. What he found instead was an ugly, brutal war.

Rolling Stone quoted emails he sent to his parents:

“We don’t even care when we hear each other talk about running their children down in the dirt streets with our armored trucks … We make fun of them in front of their faces, and laugh at them for not understanding we are insulting them.”

Bergdahl called the US Army “the biggest joke the world has to laugh at … the army of liars, backstabbers, fools and bullies.” He said he was ashamed to be an American.

Disappointment in America’s flawed efforts in Afghanistan is not a sign of mental illness. But, as journalist Matthieu Aikins, who reports regularly from Afghanistan, tweeted: “Does running unarmed into Taliban terrain seem sane to you? Maybe Bergdahl’s act should be seen through PTSD/mental health prism.”

This will not appease Bergdahl’s fellow soldiers who are angry and bitter over the whole affair. Six soldiers died trying to find Bergdahl after he left base, as fellow battalion member Nathan Bradley Bethea recounted in The Daily Beast.

Within hours of Bergdahl’s release, a petition had been filed at whitehouse.gov to “Punish Bowe Bergdahl.” As of Tuesday afternoon, more than 11,000 people had signed.

Once Bergdahl is home, a more thorough assessment can be made of him, and a decision will be made as to whether or not he will face disciplinary action. The Army released a statement Tuesday promising a “comprehensive, coordinated effort that will include speaking with Sgt. Bergdahl to better learn from him the circumstances of his disappearance and captivity.”

But, as more than one commentator has noted, five years in Taliban hands may be punishment enough.

2. Did the White House violate US policy against negotiating with terrorists in securing Bergdahl’s release?

The general consensus, with everyone from CNN’s Jake Tapper (ed. note: While Tapper mistakenly thought the Taliban was a DTO, he was corrected on air, and has expressed no public position about negotiating with them) to Fox News’s Chris Wallace weighing in, is that the Taliban is a terrorist organization, and talking to them is, or should be, out of the question.

This may be emotionally satisfying, but it happens not to be true. The Afghan Taliban has never been designated as a terrorist organization, either by the United States or the United Nations. It is, instead, an enemy combatant.

Bergdahl was not kidnapped, he was not held hostage; he was a soldier taken prisoner by the other side in an armed conflict, much as the five Taliban released from Guantanamo were.

Negotiating with an opponent in an armed conflict is a normal process of war, as is prisoner exchange.

3. How dangerous are the Taliban who were released?

In 2012 John McCain called the Guantanamo Five “the worst murderers in human history,” according to Rolling Stone.

The five men, who are now in Qatar and barred from traveling for a year, do not really live up to their monster billing, however.

Khairullah Said Wali Khairkhwa, Abdul Haq Wasiq, Mullah Noorullah Noori, Mullah Mohammad Fazl and Mohammad Nabi Omari had been in Guantanamo Bay since the early days of the war.

Kate Clark of the Afghanistan Analyst Network spent weeks researching the five men’s biographies in 2013, and came up with a much more nuanced picture.

“It is mystifying to know where the Guantanamo Bay authorities got the idea that Khairkhwa was known, in their words, as a ‘hardliner in terms of Taliban philosophy.’ During the Emirate, he was considered one of the more moderate Taliban in leadership circles,” she writes.

Noori and Fazl had negotiated surrender of Taliban fighters to General Abdul Rashid Dostum in November, 2001, based on what they believed was a promise of safe passage home. Instead, hundreds of Taliban fighters were massacred, and Fazl and Noori were arrested.

Wasiq was taken in a sting operation — according to Clark, he was cooperating with the US at the time and was trying to arrange reintegration with the new government. Instead, he was arrested and sent to Guantanamo.

The Guantanamo Docket, a project of The New York Times based on the WikiLeaks documents, also yields some interesting information.

Omari, for example, was a minor Taliban figure who said he was selling used cars when the war started. He also claimed that he was given $500 and a cell phone by a CIA officer named Mark and told to go find Mullah Omar. When he failed to deliver, he was arrested.

Not a very impressive background for what the media are calling the “worst of the worst.”

4. Is the Bergdahl release the first step in Obama’s final push to close down Guantanamo?

Shutting Gitmo was a campaign promise of then-Sen. Obama. Five and a half years later, men are still being held indefinitely, without charge.

The president had been hamstrung by Congress, but may now have decided to exercise the powers he gave himself in a “signing statement” he issued last December, when he failed to follow through on a threatened veto of the National Defense Authorization Act. Obama let stand certain limitations on his authority to release or transfer prisoners, but retained the right to act on his own discretion when he felt the situation warranted.

Now that the president has shown he can bypass Congress, he may be prepared to go all the way, argues Josh Rogin in The Daily Beast.

He quotes a senior GOP senate aide as speculating that Bergdahl may have been just the beginning:

“This whole deal may have been a test to see how far the administration can actually push it, and if Congress doesn’t fight back they will feel more empowered to move forward with additional transfers,” the aide told Rogin.

Perhaps The Onion said it best, quoting a fictional man-on-the street professing his outrage at the deal.

“It’s unconscionable that we’re releasing these Gitmo detainees now for a prisoner swap,” says ‘Stan McGinty.’ “Legally they should have been released years ago for nothing.”
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Metahive »

Simon_Jester wrote:Frankly yes.

It's... frustrating sometimes. Party A does something bluntly stupid and improper. Party B is the only political force in the land that's in any position to criticize them. But Party B is hypocritical to condemn the action, because they were acting just as stupidly and improperly as Party A.

What do you do?

Do you reject Party B's right to make a valid criticism of A because it's hypocritical coming out of their mouth? In that case, Party A may be effectively immune to any meaningful criticism at all, and any check on their power.

Or do you tacitly support Party B's criticism, and partially enable the hypocrisy?
The problem with party B criticising practice X while at the same time not only being guilty of X but continuing doing X is that the message ultimately send isn't that X is bad but that getting caught while doing X is bad.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Edi »

That's a good one, Crossroads. Another one is the Rolling Stone article Four Myths About the Bowe Bergdahl Swap That Must Be Destroyed

Relevant quote:
Again, this talking point has incredible resonance, because it feels like the kind of thing that really could be true. But as The New York Times has noted, the facts are actually far less clear. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel has commented that "I do not know of specific circumstances or details of U.S. solders dying as a result of efforts to find and rescue Sergeant Bergdahl." And blaming Bergdahl's disappearance for every death in Patika province during one of the most deadly periods in the war simply doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. (As an aside, part of the reason we know what we know about Bergdahl's disappearance comes from the Wikileaks trove provided by Army leaker Chelsea Manning – further evidence of how valuable that leak was and continues to be.)
It references the NYT article. The whole thing is worth reading.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Elfdart »

Patroklos wrote:Where exactly are you guys getting the idea that it is in any way normal to go outside the wire for recreation? I hope it isn't the Hurt Locker...
ABC News
Bergdahl Wasn't Only Soldier to 'Walk Off' Afghan Outposts
Vets Say Drugs, Alcohol and Joyrides Behind Absences, But G.I.s Weren't Deserters
By JAMES GORDON MEEK

June 9, 2014 —

WASHINGTON - Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl left his combat outpost in Afghanistan in 2009 and fell into enemy hands for five years, but the former Taliban prisoner wasn't the only trooper to sneak out of a U.S. base in recent years, military sources told ABC News on Sunday.

"At least a dozen guys just walked off their posts" in Afghanistan since 2009 for a variety of reasons, said an experienced soldier, one of four Afghan war veterans familiar with the incidents who spoke to ABC News. The other sources estimated the number could be more than a dozen.

The highly experienced combat veterans -- whose deployments cover the entire Afghan campaign -- said the significant incidents spanned a timeframe from when President Bush in late 2008 boosted conventional troop numbers in Afghanistan to well beyond President Obama's early 2010 surge that added 30,000 more troopers to the fight.
There's more at the link.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Wicked Pilot »

I left my camp by myself while off duty in defiance of the 'buddy rule' many times. I stayed within the perimeter of the airbase and had my weapon and a phone, so not quite the same, but still sometimes people just want to get away from all the annoying assholes they're being cooped up with.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Replicant »

SirNitram wrote:Wow, look at all those rebuttals to arguments I didn't make.
What arguments? Your argument is little more than the other side of the coin. You suggest that people hate it just because Obama did it. So by virtue you are saying it is fine with it because Obama did it. Your just wanking to the opposite side.

Obama broke the law in regards to how the prisoners were released. He released them to a government that by all reports is not putting any real effort into containing them. Two of the "prisoners" released were war criminals accused of attempted genocide. Finally, the entire circumstances of this soldiers capture have been intentionally manipulated and distorted to hide the fact that he deserted his post WHILE on guard duty.

Now to make it even more amusing the Obama Administration is doing the blame game yet again and pointing fingers at the Sec of Def and saying this guy had the final say, if nothing else this shows how badly the Obama Administration fucked up since they are already trying to cover their ass with typical blameshifting.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Replicant wrote: Obama broke the law in regards to how the prisoners were released. He released them to a government that by all reports is not putting any real effort into containing them. Two of the "prisoners" released were war criminals accused of attempted genocide. Finally, the entire circumstances of this soldiers capture have been intentionally manipulated and distorted to hide the fact that he deserted his post WHILE on guard duty.
Is this your clever way of telling us you haven't read a single other post in this thread or any of the many articles and sources linked herein?
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by Patroklos »

None of the articles contradict anything in his post.
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by General Zod »

Replicant wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Wow, look at all those rebuttals to arguments I didn't make.
What arguments? Your argument is little more than the other side of the coin. You suggest that people hate it just because Obama did it. So by virtue you are saying it is fine with it because Obama did it. Your just wanking to the opposite side.

Obama broke the law in regards to how the prisoners were released. He released them to a government that by all reports is not putting any real effort into containing them. Two of the "prisoners" released were war criminals accused of attempted genocide. Finally, the entire circumstances of this soldiers capture have been intentionally manipulated and distorted to hide the fact that he deserted his post WHILE on guard duty.

Now to make it even more amusing the Obama Administration is doing the blame game yet again and pointing fingers at the Sec of Def and saying this guy had the final say, if nothing else this shows how badly the Obama Administration fucked up since they are already trying to cover their ass with typical blameshifting.
You do know that these prisoners were scheduled to be released anyway, right? If we're going to release them anyway why not get something in return?
http://www.glennbeck.com/2014/06/05/sta ... -bergdahl/
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Re: The Bergdahl Controversy

Post by bilateralrope »

Replicant wrote:Two of the "prisoners" released were war criminals accused of attempted genocide
Tell me, has anyone formally charged those two of war crimes ?
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