ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

[Highlord Laan]

That's not quite the same mindset as "bomb these vermin into paste."

Maybe you could try again with a bit less flaming racism, dismissal, and failure to comprehend why a bunch of foreigners turned into extremists?

The mindsets are hardly exclusive. I have nothing against any racial group. I find murdering, raping thugs of every race and creed to worthy only of painful death. Wonder of wonders, ISIS is a pack of such scum hated by pretty much everyone, so I don't see what the objections are. It's not like burying them all in the desert would be a loss.

[K. A. Pital]

So how a group hated by 'pretty much everyone' controls half of Iraq? And maybe will soon control most of it? Seriously, you tried violence. Your leaders also said Saddam was hated by pretty much everyone. And what now?

Now you have ultra-hardcore islamists and former Sunni officials banding together to create an efficient fighting force (the initial stages were banked by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, so you gotta go slow with the 'pretty much everyone' too - these are your best buddies in the Middle East, aren't they?). Their successes are remarkable.

Saying 'well they are evil and kill kill kill' isn't going to solve the problem that gave rise to it in the first place.

[cosmicalstorm]

Watching the almost daily execution videos from the Islamic State is haunting. I wonder when the real genocidal violence will start.

[Simon_Jester]

That's not quite the same mindset as "bomb these vermin into paste."

Maybe you could try again with a bit less flaming racism, dismissal, and failure to comprehend why a bunch of foreigners turned into extremists?

Is it racist to hate violent bigots now? If the Ku Klux Klan was actively waging war against the United States and executing African-Americans in the cities they captured, wouldn't he be saying the same thing?

The characterization of groups of foreigners as 'savages,' 'vermin,' and so on is a flagrantly stereotypical way for racist treatments of the people in those foreign countries to creep to the surface. Is Laan a racist as such? I doubt it. But there is a difference between being consciously racist and expressing opinions that basically boil down to "Wait, come to think of it, I'm saying that fascists from my country are fascists, fascists from other people's countries are animals. Savages. Vermin, even."

However, this is a detail. I would really rather not this get entirely bogged down into an argument of whether Laan's Internet-warrior statement about BOMB THESE VERMIN INTO PASTE is objectively 'racist' in light of all else that might be said about it.

That's not quite the same mindset as "bomb these vermin into paste."

Maybe you could try again with a bit less flaming racism, dismissal, and failure to comprehend why a bunch of foreigners turned into extremists?

The mindsets are hardly exclusive. I have nothing against any racial group. I find murdering, raping thugs of every race and creed to worthy only of painful death. Wonder of wonders, ISIS is a pack of such scum hated by pretty much everyone, so I don't see what the objections are. It's not like burying them all in the desert would be a loss.

What it comes down to is that bombing is a blunt instrument and the idea that you can wipe out what is essentially a state-in-formation by bombing a poorly defined "them" (I assume you mean their field armies) is... ill-conceived. Killing field armies is not going to be enough, and the 'scum' will not all line up to be shot in the open allowing you to declare victory and go home.

But to understand this you must be comfortable with the idea that they are in fact humans, and have some kind of meaningful sense of tactics, goals that they will only pursue in ways it makes sense to them to pursue them, and so on. They are not a rampaging hive-mind of Tyranids who will unthinkingly swarm out into open country to obligingly be destroyed.

This is where cooperation with (for example) Iran becomes necessary to fight them effectively.* But if you're still stuck on BOMB THE SAVAGES mode, it's not realistically possible to make an actual strategy or plan that fits together, because you're picturing the enemy as having all the intellect, resourcefulness, planning ability, and power to defend themselves of a bunch of ducks in a shooting gallery.

*(And I bitterly remember right-wingers saying in 2003-4 that one of the reasons to invade Iraq was that when Saddam Hussein's regime inevitably collapsed under its own weight , the Iranians would try to add the Shia parts of the country to their sphere of influence...)

[xerex]

Saudi Arabia doesnt trust its own army against the IS amd is leasing troops from Pakistan and Egypt to defend its border.

Saudi Arabia has deployed thousands of troops from Egypt and Pakistan along its frontier with Iraq, amid fears of invasion by the al-Qaeda splinter group that has declared a radical Islamic state across the border.
Panicked by the advance of the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (Isis), Riyadh has taken the drastic step of calling in military assistance from its close allies to shore up the porous 500-mile border, Gulf security sources said.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/worl ... 164627.ece

[Channel72]

So how a group hated by 'pretty much everyone' controls half of Iraq? And maybe will soon control most of it? Seriously, you tried violence. Your leaders also said Saddam was hated by pretty much everyone. And what now?

Now you have ultra-hardcore islamists and former Sunni officials banding together to create an efficient fighting force (the initial stages were banked by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, so you gotta go slow with the 'pretty much everyone' too - these are your best buddies in the Middle East, aren't they?). Their successes are remarkable.

Saying 'well they are evil and kill kill kill' isn't going to solve the problem that gave rise to it in the first place.

What's with all the second person pronouns? An ISIS controlled Iraq isn't in Russia's interest either. Maybe the US, Russia, and Iran should be cooperating on this.

We're all trying to get rid of these idiots, but there's no serious coordination going on, unless it's happening quietly.

[K. A. Pital]

Russia? Why, now? Did Russia invade Iraq? No. Why should it ever help? I mean, it is good that it does. But it is under no obligation to fix the US blunders. Much less so while the US still trades with KSA and Qatar.

[Channel72]

Because Russia is dependent on Iran for energy, and shares many common geopolitical and commercial interests with them. Iran is potentially threatened by ISIS expansion.

[K. A. Pital]

Because Russia is dependent on Iran for energy, and shares many common geopolitical and commercial interests with them. Iran is potentially threatened by ISIS expansion.

Uh. Russia is not dependent on Iran for energy. It has commercial interests there, but Iran's recent thaw with the West can potentially hurt Russia. It is not that simple.

[Elheru Aran]

Because Russia is dependent on Iran for energy, and shares many common geopolitical and commercial interests with them. Iran is potentially threatened by ISIS expansion.

Russia has about all the oil it really needs right in its own territory. There are some geopolitical and commercial interests, but really the Middle East isn't all that interesting to the Russians. They've got more interesting things going on in Eastern Europe right now.

Iran does have cause for concern in ISIS, but it's got a well enough organized and professional army at the moment that if ISIS gave them enough provocation they could give it a decent fight. I would not be too surprised if the Iranians, at some point in the near (ish) future, decide to invade Iraq to rescue the Shiite minority there and then withdraw back across the border and let ISIS have the country.

[Channel72]

Fine, whatever. "Dependent" is too strong a word. But the fact is, Russia has serious economic interests in Iran.

But it's a moot point because the reality is Russia is assisting the Iraqis against ISIS, both directly and through support for the Iranians. So obviously Putin thinks ISIS is enough of a problem to intervene.

Superficially, it would seem ISIS is pretty much doomed - with two major world powers fighting against it - although the political reality is way more complex. I just wish there was better coordination between the US, Russia and Iran going on - because the fact is, for once, we all have the same interests here.

[Thanas]

Russia wants to sell weapons to Iraq and those weapons, being easier to train on, more rugged and needing less maintenance might be better for the Iraqis anyway. In that sense, demonstrating how well those weapons work might be an ideal sales pitch.

[Elheru Aran]

Whether or not the Russians are selling (not giving) military hardware to the Iraqis is kinda irrelevant if the Iraqis can't man them, given that the Iraqi military is something of a shambles right now. Russia doesn't want to fall into the same trap of being in a nasty little foreign war like the US found itself for a decade; they already got enough bad press over Chechenya. It's more the Iranians' problem than it is ours or the Russians' as it's happening in their neighboring country, but frankly they're just waiting to see what happens, and I suspect it'll take a lot more than the odd mass execution to stir up the various superpowers into intervening.

[Channel72]

For some laughs, check out ISIS's 5-year expansion plan:



So basically the ISIS Caliphate includes the Mid-East, India(!), Pakistan, all of West Africa, Spain, Eastern Europe(!), parts of Russia, Greece, Turkey, etc. That's more territory than the fucking Ottomans ever had, although I guess ISIS is nostalgic for pre-Ferdinand and Isabella Spain. Jesus, these guys are ambitious.

What, no love for Italy? What happened to the glorious conquest of Rome?

[Elheru Aran]

That picture is bunk. Some Islamic fanboys cooked it up a while ago. ISIS talks a lot of bullshit, but I think they're quite aware that if they try expanding much further than Iraq and some adjoining countries they'd get squashed in no time.

[K. A. Pital]

Also, the ISIS would never consider the Ottoman Empire to be a true (righteous) Khalifate; either they go for the Rashidun-only history or they may also include some of the Umayyad in their role models, but the Ottoman no.

[Channel72]

That picture is bunk. Some Islamic fanboys cooked it up a while ago. ISIS talks a lot of bullshit, but I think they're quite aware that if they try expanding much further than Iraq and some adjoining countries they'd get squashed in no time.

I think a large part of ISIS propoganda involves uniting all (Sunni) Muslims to fight for a new Caliphate. Much of their success so far is likely rooted in their ability to recruit disillusioned young men to fight for a greater cause. Also, given the rapid, allegedly Allah-inspired conquest of the Sassanian empire, it's not too far a stretch to imagine that some of the ISIS top brass truly believes their own propaganda to a certain extent, and is convinced that God will facilitate victory for any conquest they set their mind to.

[Borgholio]

I'm no expert on Mid-east politics, but I want to think that the instant ISIS tries to make inroads into an actual intact nation...they will get steamrolled. I'm thinking nations with functioning governments and militaries like Turkey, Egypt, Israel, and even Iran to name a few. Things would get even worse for them if they tried to get into Europe or towards India / Pakistan.

[Simon_Jester]

For some laughs, check out ISIS's 5-year expansion plan:



So basically the ISIS Caliphate includes the Mid-East, India(!), Pakistan, all of West Africa, Spain, Eastern Europe(!), parts of Russia, Greece, Turkey, etc. That's more territory than the fucking Ottomans ever had, although I guess ISIS is nostalgic for pre-Ferdinand and Isabella Spain. Jesus, these guys are ambitious.

What, no love for Italy? What happened to the glorious conquest of Rome?

Virtually all that territory is land that was once ruled by Muslim rulers at some point in time, with a few exceptions and cases where the zone ISIS claims is 'rounded off' in their favor (northern Spain, southern India a few bits of the Balkans maybe).

India was ruled by Sunni Muslims under the Mughals. Spain was ruled by Sunni Muslims under the Umayyad Caliphate. Central Asia was ruled by Sunni Muslim leaders of Turkic descent for most of the past millenium. The Balkans (not 'Eastern Europe') was ruled by Sunni Muslim leaders under the Ottomans, and so on.

Basically, this is quite simply a map of "every region Muslims historically controlled, plus a little bit," and ISIS's strategic objective is "take it all back, unite every Muslim ruler and Muslim nation under our banner, take back every part that was ever lost to the Islamic world, and plus a little for good measure, except Sicily which we don't want back for some reason."

[Thanas]

That is not a ISIS picture or claim, Simon.

ISIS also tries to claim Rome.

[Elheru Aran]

I would not say they 'claim' Rome as much as one of their vaguely defined goals is to strike back at what they see as the epicenter of traditional Christianity. In general they blag quite a bit about what they would like to achieve, but I suspect the actual goals of the actual leadership on the ground would be a bit more pedestrian. Something along the lines of simply conquering Iraq, turning it into an Islamic nation a la Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, and then perhaps expanding somewhat.

What would be really interesting is, if they managed to conquer Iraq, would any nation buy oil from them? Especially seeing as Iraq is one of the larger providers of oil in the ME? As of 2013 it's approximately 7th highest in the world (curiously, Russia manages to surpass Saudi Arabia, according to the list on Wikipedia).

Of course, ISIS are just the type of people to go something like "we don't need your filthy Western lucre" and turn their country into a medieval sinkhole...

[Channel72]

Googling around a bit, it seems the map I posted was originally claimed to be from ISIS by ABC News, but it seems Elheru Aran is correct that their source is dubious. FoxNews (of course) also reported it. It seems to have initially cropped up on some racist American White Nationalist website.

Although, after an admittedly cursory glance at the various Google results and the media matters page, it's still not clear to me if this map is actually potentially originally from ISIS, since the website(s) debunking it mainly complain that the map is "unrealistic" - well, yeah... obviously it's unrealistic, but that's beside the point - who says ISIS has particularly realistic goals?

Regardless, it's likely a fake, (or at least the news organizations that reported it seem to have no proof it originates from ISIS) so I apologize for posting it, since I didn't really do any research, even if it turns out to originate from a legitimate ISIS source.

[Simon_Jester]

That is not a ISIS picture or claim, Simon.

ISIS also tries to claim Rome.

Ah. I was told it was such a picture, and I took Channel72's word for it.

That said, it's worth pointing out that almost every territory labeled black on that map is a historical possession of one Islamic state or another, and there are or were significant Muslim minorities (or majorities, or supermajorities) in almost all of them.

So if one really does believe in restoring the Caliphate, the one true leader of the Islamic faith... well, most of the territory on that map is already Islamic lands, populated overwhelmingly by Muslims. Anyone who wants to restore the Caliphate would be 'reasonable' to think it belongs to that Caliphate.

India, Andalusia, the Balkans have been out of Muslim hands for centuries, but were in Muslim hands for a period of anywhere from four to eight centuries previous to that, so they're hardly surprising targets for revanchism. Israel likewise.

About the only things marked on the (apparently fake) map that are not and never were Muslim-inhabited or Muslim-ruled are the highlands of Ethiopia, northern Spain, and maybe a few other bits and pieces.

[Channel72]

Still, it would be the single largest Islamic state ever by far, larger than the Fatimid, Abbasid, or Ottoman states.

[The Vortex Empire]

Still, it would be the single largest Islamic state ever by far, larger than the Ottoman or Abbasid states.

For the five or so minutes before it shattered and broke out into massive civil wars and insurgencies, anyway.