"Bitcoin Jesus" renounced US citizenship, now can’t get back

[Ralin]

If you happen to live in Lebanon and shit hits the fan the Marines come and get you. See Anthony Bourdain.

All countries do that for their citizens. Only the US charges taxes for it.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Is that just a weird way of twisting that or do other countries just not use their military as security in their embassies and for these functions when necessary? Honest question.

I'm not clear on what your question is. I don't think the hypothetical Marines saving my ass in Lebanon would be the ones who were already assigned to the embassy there unless I was already physically there.

[Gaidin]

I'm not clear on what your question is. I don't think the hypothetical Marines saving my ass in Lebanon would be the ones who were already assigned to the embassy there unless I was already physically there.

It's hard to say a country doesn't charge taxes for military...I'm just saying.

[Jub]

I'm not clear on what your question is. I don't think the hypothetical Marines saving my ass in Lebanon would be the ones who were already assigned to the embassy there unless I was already physically there.

It's hard to say a country doesn't charge taxes for military...I'm just saying.

Most countries do, but only to citizens living within their boarders. The US is fairly unique in charging expats taxes and wasting everybody's time with filling out paperwork for earnings well below the thresh hold. In addition they also provide lesser or equal services for those taxes than other comparable nations.

[fgalkin]

I'm not clear on what your question is. I don't think the hypothetical Marines saving my ass in Lebanon would be the ones who were already assigned to the embassy there unless I was already physically there.

It's hard to say a country doesn't charge taxes for military...I'm just saying.

Yes, but only people living within their borders. The US charges everyone with a passport or a Green Card, even if they're living abroad.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Jub]

For those arguing that the US provides such great services to its expats that they deserve to be taxed, or made to file the byzantine paperwork at the very least, even when not living in the United States could we get examples of what services the US provides that other nations don't? Or even a listing of ones that they provide to such an exceptional degree that it's worth it for an expat to pay into them? This tax only makes sense if it's for these services, because if it only exists to catch tax dodgers, you'd think that other nations which have a higher rate of taxation for the above $95k/year mark would have implemented this long ago.

[Gaidin]

Most countries do, but only to citizens living within their boarders. The US is fairly unique in charging expats taxes and wasting everybody's time with filling out paperwork for earnings well below the thresh hold. In addition they also provide lesser or equal services for those taxes than other comparable nations.

Everybody fills out paperwork for all their earnings insofar as I'm aware, and depending on what bracket you're in the math handles it if you do the paperwork right. There's nothing to make them special when we have plenty of people over in our neighborhood who get everything, the kitchen sink, and sometimes more handed back to them but still have to go through the paperwork motions for it if they're in the right thresh hold.

[Welf]

Plus, well, every other country in the world provides the same services, without taxing its expats.

And many provide better public services, too.

Unfortunately those services get reduced more and more. Mostly because of regular tax cuts to keep the rich people from running away into tax heavens. So I can very well understand why the Americans tax worldwide income. Personally I think other countries should introduce that, too. Or invade Monaco et. al.

[Irbis]

For those arguing that the US provides such great services to its expats that they deserve to be taxed, or made to file the byzantine paperwork at the very least, even when not living in the United States could we get examples of what services the US provides that other nations don't? Or even a listing of ones that they provide to such an exceptional degree that it's worth it for an expat to pay into them? This tax only makes sense if it's for these services, because if it only exists to catch tax dodgers, you'd think that other nations which have a higher rate of taxation for the above $95k/year mark would have implemented this long ago.

Fucking up the ass without lube?

No, seriously, when we had Cold War, country aggravated by USA could have at least turned to the other side. Now? You have one choice, be vassal or be a pariah, period. USA just has too much weight. Which is why even supposedly 'equal' EU gets things like extrajudical killing of privacy laws by Safe Harbor, death of airspace industry by monoplane (F-35), or free trade agreement packed with court that lets US companies sue EU for everything and automatically win. Do you know how it looks in the states less important than EU?

Though, you're wrong. EU also had double taxation, and you could end up paying taxes (without any credit) to two countries at once. This had been recently solved by number of treaties taxing you only in one EU country, but it brought with it new problems - like Luxembourg asshats fucking up the rest of EU with their mafia like tax protection scheme for 1% of tax handed under the table. It's so bad they cost EU more than Fukushima did Japan, each year. So, it's not all roses either.

Frankly, USA just does to their own citizens what they do to other countries. If you want to change that, first change the 'infallible hegemony' attitude Americans have. Only then, when they start looking at the things other do and recognize better solutions (then drop policies benefitting only USA and nobody else) things will change. Though, I'll repeat myself - while US tax is a big hassle and should be changed, the only people truly hit by it hard are petty tax dodgers like bitcoin guy. Somehow, you don't see really rich elite in USA giving up citizenship then bleating about it.

[Ralin]

Quite a few wealthy Chinese people seem to arrange for their children to be born in America for citizenship. I don't think it's usually even because they plan to immigrate; they just want to have the escape hatch if their government turns against them. Wealthy Americans don't bother with that crap because they very clearly are not afraid of their government

[Darth Nostril]

Wealthy Americans don't bother with that crap because they very clearly are not afraid of their government

Because the very wealthy own the US government.

[GuppyShark]

If you're an expatriate American and the idea of being taxed while outside the country bothers you, you can always renounce your citizenship!

Complaining that the US taxes expats seems ridiculous given that citizenship is voluntary.

[Joun_Lord]

That seems like a foolish position to take.

Its akin to the conservative (and more) saying of "if you don't like it you can git out". Such things are said to conservatives over Obamacare, to liberals over the Iraqandroll War, and a variation was said by some douchebag in my old HS to some girl protesting the Aghanistan invasion (amongst other things). Religious fucks have said much the same to gay people doing the evil thing of wanting the same rights and white privileges as everyone else. I'm sure douchenozzles said the same thing back when Americans thought it was a-okay to own other people (and ironically gitted out themselves when the people who though that owning slaves was bad didn't git out).

People are strangely attached to their country of origin either because of some flag waving nationalism, FOOTBALL YEAH, or just the fact that place is where they keep all their stuff and even more strangely don't want to leave it forever just because there is some injustice goings on in said place of stuff keeping.

For expats living elsewhere they have the choice of just GTFO over unfair policies, even if they might regret it, others who haven't the money or ability to git out have to live with whatever rules and regulations and slavery and death panels and anything else that is bad.

Of course the problems of home aren't really the problem of wealthy tax dodging expats and rich cunts with more money then brains or good taste so who gives a shit I guess?

[Welf]

But expats didn't like it and already did get out.

Also, those examples are not the same. Obamacare was introduced to keep people from dieing and living a miserable life (and significantly change the long term economic outlook of the nation). In the Iraq adventure and the Afghanistan invasion people hundreds of thousands of people were murdered, millions displaced. Refusing gay marriage means refusing the basic human right of equality before the law and sexual self-determination. Slavery is a shame and takes away dignity from humans.
Taxing expats with full world income and forcing them to sign papers is not the same. This is about not paying taxing or spending time on it. The way it is handled is from what I heard extremely unfair and even takes away economic opportunity from expats since banks refuse to take them as customers. And it's pretty obvious that the interests of the expats have been sacrificed for a election campaign issue.

[Broomstick]

But expats didn't like it and already did get out.

That doesn't apply in all cases.

Someone might well spent years abroad building a career with full intentions to return to their country of origin. It's not a matter of "gitting out" for them but trying to make a living.

[Ralin]

Wealthy Americans don't bother with that crap because they very clearly are not afraid of their government

Because the very wealthy own the US government.

Yes, that was the point.

If you're an expatriate American and the idea of being taxed while outside the country bothers you, you can always renounce your citizenship!

Complaining that the US taxes expats seems ridiculous given that citizenship is voluntary.

You ever look into what it takes to renounce US citizenship? There's this huge number of hoops to jump throughout through and fees and exit taxes to pay, and they have no obligation to recognize it when you get to the end.

Hell, the way I understand it the IRS claims the right to keep taxing you on foreign income even after you renounce US citizenship. No one seems to know how they would go about doing that, but apparently it's on the books somewhere.

[Esquire]

Don't you just have to go to a consulate and sign an oath, witnessed by some sort of official? And the IRS might very well be entitled to your money after renunciation, if you owed back taxes or something - the bit about renouncing citizenship not necessarily affecting your relationship with the IRS is probably just in there for that sort of situation.

[fgalkin]

Don't you just have to go to a consulate and sign an oath, witnessed by some sort of official? And the IRS might very well be entitled to your money after renunciation, if you owed back taxes or something - the bit about renouncing citizenship not necessarily affecting your relationship with the IRS is probably just in there for that sort of situation.

Well, yes, but that costs you $2,350.

In addition, there is an exit tax for people with a net worth of over $2 million (i.e. a small house in Brooklyn)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/ ... ip-by-422/


Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

And that ignores things like people who never really lived in the US, but are US citizens nonetheless

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/11/us/11 ... wanted=all

WASHINGTON — As Americans abroad chafe under sharply increased U.S. pressure to declare foreign holdings and catch up on back tax filings, one group with tenuous ties to America and the benefits of citizenship is feeling particular pain and unease.

They might be called “accidental” Americans, born during their foreign parents’ brief stay on U.S. soil, or born abroad to American parents who long ago settled elsewhere.

After lifetimes abroad, many in this group, whose total size is impossible to estimate, had believed that because exemptions left them owing no U.S. income tax they had no obligation to file returns; many have been tripped up by a requirement that they still declare their foreign bank and financial accounts.

In interviews, several people declined to allow their full names to be used for fear of complicating already complex tax situations. “Some people have never even lived in the U.S.” and learned belatedly of American tax responsibilities, said Sonia Stewart, a tax accountant in Grayson, Georgia, who works exclusively with overseas filers. “People are panicking.”

Some typical laments include:

•Roy, 37, a lifelong Canadian resident and citizen whose dual-national mother fears the U.S. tax authorities will target the modest savings account the Canadian government provides him as a developmentally disabled adult;

•Jonathan, 34, a teacher whose American parents migrated to Canada 39 years ago. He considers himself 100 percent Canadian — a maple leaf is tattooed on his back — and believed until last year that he did not need to file a U.S. return. Tax advisers now tell him he must file eight years’ returns, at a cost in fees and fines in the thousands, lest an eventual U.S. inheritance be jeopardized;

•The teenage children of Peter Hallworth, a Briton married to a Swede living in Malmo, Sweden; the children were born in the United States but lived there only as infants. Mr. Hallworth, having heard horror stories, now expects to urge his children, when they reach adulthood, to renounce the U.S. citizenship that up to now he had treasured.

“It’s a great shame that I’m being forced to take an action because of an illogical tax law for a country which I’ve loved living in and I respect very much,” Mr. Hallworth said in a phone interview.

Almost every new tax law sows confusion and dismay, but new U.S. regulations — and much tougher enforcement — are catching some Americans in legal nets designed to snare terrorists, money-launderers or wealthy tax-evaders. Many Americans overseas — not just the rich — have had to pay thousands of dollars in fees for tax accountants or Internal Revenue Service fines.

The increased pressure has produced results. The numbers of Americans filing the Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts, or FBAR, soared from 276,386 in 2009 to 618,134 in 2011 (failure to file, the IRS warns, “subjects a person to a prison term of up to 10 years and criminal penalties of up to $500,000”).

A growing number of Americans living abroad are renouncing once-valued U.S. passports. Some 1,780 people gave up U.S. nationality last year, eight times the 2008 level and the largest number in more than a decade.

Virginia La Torre Jeker has worked abroad as a tax attorney since 1986, and in Dubai since 2001. She said the pain among American clients is high — 9 on a 10-point scale — and that her Middle Eastern clients had always treasured U.S. passports that made travel much easier than Lebanese, Pakistani or Jordanian documents. Now, “they’re lining up to get rid of the U.S. passport.”

Over the past decade, the I.R.S. and Treasury Department have stiffened penalties for failure to file and demanded more expansive filings on foreign holdings. To bring non-filers back in the fold, the I.R.S. has offered modified amnesties.

In 2001, the agency had only 13 agents in its international operations unit, and none specifically targeting what it calls “global high wealth.” By 2011, there were 71 for global high wealth — and 856 for international operations, up from 259 just a year before.

“And it isn’t over yet,” Steven T. Miller, I.R.S. deputy commissioner, said in March, pointing to plans to hire 300 more international agents.

The I.R.S. reports that 33,000 taxpayers entered the voluntary disclosure programs of 2009 and 2011; on average, it collected $133,000 per taxpayer.

The Internal Revenue Service recently reopened its voluntary disclosure program, while reserving the right to increase penalties at any point — from the current penalty of 27.5 percent of the highest aggregate balance in foreign bank accounts or foreign assets during the eight tax years before disclosure. “People need to come in and get right with us before we find you,” Doug Shulman, the I.R.S. commissioner, said in January. “We are following more leads, and the risk for people who do not come in continues to increase.”

In a report in January, the I.R.S.’s taxpayer advocate, Nina E. Olson, criticized the agency for not explaining the laws better to international payers; for issuing regulations so complex that compliance can be arduous and costly; and for issuing “potentially devastating penalties for even inadvertent noncompliance.”

The people interviewed for this article generally supported the crackdown but most saw little logic in a U.S. tax system, unique in the developed world, based on citizenship, not residency.

“What you pay in tax should somehow be related to where you have police and roads and health care,” Mr. Hallworth said. “Why pay taxes into a system if there are no benefits that accrue?”

When Jonathan, the Canadian teacher, spent four years in a third country, he had to pay taxes only there. But the possibility of an inheritance from an American grandmother prompted him to make himself right in U.S. eyes.

“It’s not like a minor little fee,” said Jonathan. “We’re a young family with two young kids, trying to kind of scrape by.” His parents, themselves facing substantial tax penalties, have offered to help pay fines and costs; “for a lot of people my parents’ age, suddenly retirement is looking a whole lot different,” Jonathan said.

Ms. La Torre Jeker said that most Americans abroad do their best to comply, even if it is painful.

Guy Setton, 38, born to an American mother and Israeli diplomat father, resided only briefly in the United States. For seven years, he has lived in Israel with his wife and two children. He feels “completely Israeli” and does not even vote in U.S. elections. But he keeps his U.S. tax filings current, “simply because that’s what’s required,” he said by phone from Raanana, Israel.

Roy’s mother, Carol, and her husband emigrated to Canada in 1969 and took citizenship in 1975, believing that they had thereby relinquished their U.S. citizenship, she said in a phone interview from Calgary, Alberta.

When she learned she and her son were still subject to U.S. taxes, she said: “I was just astounded, angry. It’s not the tax. I just really, really, really, really resent being painted — all of us who’ve chosen to live in whatever country — as tax-evaders, you know?”

Because she has signature authority over her son’s account, she is taxable by the United States for all grants and bond contributions that the Canadian government has contributed to her son’s savings plan, she said.

On top of that, the U.S. Consulate in Calgary told her she could not renounce his citizenship because, it said, he lacked “the legal capacity to form the specific intent necessary to lose U.S. nationality.” Roy, his mother said, “does not understand the concept of citizenship.”

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[K. A. Pital]

Wow. Well, that's a prime example of two things combined, the citizen by birthright policy and... being screwed over by a government that stubbornly refuses to understand modern concepts such as 'tax residency'.

[Broomstick]

Call it what it is: greed.

Instead of increasing taxes the US government has become draconian in who it considers taxable. At the same time, government programs for the average person are being cut back.

Who's getting the money? The wealthy, one way or another.

[Esquire]

Don't you just have to go to a consulate and sign an oath, witnessed by some sort of official? And the IRS might very well be entitled to your money after renunciation, if you owed back taxes or something - the bit about renouncing citizenship not necessarily affecting your relationship with the IRS is probably just in there for that sort of situation.

Well, yes, but that costs you $2,350.

In addition, there is an exit tax for people with a net worth of over $2 million (i.e. a small house in Brooklyn)

That, I didn't know. I wonder if the $2,350 is itemized in any way, or just a giant lump-sum "Screw You" charge?