UK General Election 2015

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Darth Tanner
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Darth Tanner »

Am I missing some great looming nuclear threat though?
Definitely not, it would be most likely perfectly safe for the UK to disarm, but once we do there are lots of implications on for example our membership of the security council ect. If we give up nuclear weapons because of budget concerns now we will likely never get them back even in a future world where they might be more necessary. Of course in balance we are never going to use them so its very easy to argue to not spend billions on them... right up until the global political scene changes and you regret not having the nuclear card in your pocket.
BUT, and once again i'm having to hammer this point home, if they have a moderately effective shield, then they are NOT facing nuclear retaliation.
80% intercept is a bit more than moderately effective though, its spectacularly effective considering current technology struggles to intercept individual missiles in test conditions. Vanguard could potentially launch 16 missiles with 8 warheads each (I would have guessed they load the active weapons onto the service subs rather than spreading them across ships in repair) from a completely unknown location. Especially considering that the most likely targets currently have only quite limited capability to intercept in very strict geographic areas (mostly around Moscow) - although these defenses are very likely to improve I seriously doubt they will ever get to the point you could feel safe that you could shoot down a 128 warhead barrage when it only takes 1 or two to reduce a city to rubble.

Having to factor in rebuilding central Moscow is sufficient deterrent for me, no need to lay waste to the entire continent like Russia and America would.
Neither is any form of retaliation. Any circumstance where someone sneak attacks us with nukes is one where that country has already committed to a vastly expensive war.
If nukes are flying the only objective is to ensure your enemy loses as badly as you do, no one is going to win except those that don't get nuked, and even then if London is a glowing crater the world economy is going down the tube anyway.

One cost saving thing I would consider is sharing deterrence with France, it would potentially half the needed number of submarines.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

The 80% interception figure is a pretty big assumption- do we even know the effectiveness of anti-missile defenses against the Trident D5?
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Purple »

Even with 0% interception just how many warheads do you have? It is my understanding that you can at most saturate and destroy one or two cities. So what's stopping someone from just making the calculation and deciding that it's a tradeoff that's acceptable.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Darth Tanner »

We have 128 475 kiloton warheads at sea at any one point. I think if we had some notice we would have around 225 475 kiloton warheads available. A 475 kiloton warhead detonating in central Moscow would injure and kill 8.8 million people and completely destroy the centre of the city.

Thats more than enough to cripple any country on earth. Even if we were limited to destroying '1 or 2 cities' thats more than enough deterrent to make a nuclear exchange a lose lose situation for all parties involved.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by madd0ct0r »

Summary regarding nuclear from the MOD's long term plan - publicly available here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... ecured.pdf

1) they expect to see more nuclear power plants everywhere
2) As such they expect "Growing use of nuclear energy raises the possibility of fissile material being obtained by non-state actors as well as countries operating outside international laws, potentially causing security threats." - ie the terrorist nuke.
3) They expect Brazil or Argentina to have nuclear submarines and possibly nuclear weapons by 2045
4) They expect widespread solar power plantations in the middle east, and suggest this is preferable to the current trajectory of nuclear power ("a large quantity of fissile material and expertise may be present in the area")
5) They expect EU nations to continue to be low armed and work in coalition, with the two exceptions being France and the UK
6) they expect Russia to maintain nuclear weapons and subs to protect its interests in the Baltics.

in the future weapons section:
Increased levels of defence spending and
continuing advances in technology are likely
to lead to a variety of new weapons being
available by 2045. For example, laser systems
are maturing, with vehicle and sea-based
platforms already at advanced stages of trial.3
Directed energy weapons, such as lasers, could
be capable of discrete target discrimination,
producing a focussed beam (or wider field) of
electromagnetic energy or atomic radiation
to cause disruptive or damaging effects to
equipment and infrastructure. Such weapons
may also be capable of delivering non-lethal
effect on human targets at considerable
distances. Increases in the number and
sophistication of sensors (civil and military) are
likely to increase the accuracy of targeting, as
well as making it increasingly difficult to hide
people, machines or equipment. As people
use electronic devices more frequently, the
ability to target an individual by their ‘digital signature’ is likely to become easier. Similarly,
as the cost of sequencing an individual’s DNA
continues to fall, targeting an individual using
their DNA may be possible by 2045. We could
also see sophisticated environmental warfare,
capable of spreading plant and human
diseases by insects or insect-machine hybrids.
Crops and cattle could be destroyed, as well as
people being incapacitated or killed.
Globalisation, in particular the spread of
technology, information and ideas, is likely
to give an increasing number of people
(both state and non-state actors) access to
sophisticated and technologically advanced
capabilities. This is likely to increase the
opportunity for unconventional attacks
on technologically sophisticated nations,
including by terrorists. However, future
technology may also be developed to predict,
detect and counter such attacks.
on the threat of nuclear war and overall levels of conflict:
Although many people see the 20th and early
21st centuries as being the most violent and
bloody in human history, evidence suggests
that the frequency and intensity of wars, as
well as the number of violent deaths, has been
declining sharply and is likely to continue
to fall.4 For example, no western European
countries have gone to war against each other
since the end of World War II, but by contrast,
in the 600 years before 1945, they started an
average of two new wars each year. Although
the number of civil wars increased after 1945,
these have also been on the decline since
1991. Countries are also much more willing,
globally, to get involved in peacekeeping,
with peace-support operations dramatically
increasing since the end of World War II
(although they have slightly decreased in
number since 2000).5 Of course, the risk of
a major conflict will almost certainly remain.
Historically, the rise of two or more great
powers in close physical proximity is usually
correlated with war or conflict – and there are
a number of such potential flashpoints around
the world, looking out to 2045.

The nature of conflict will almost certainly
continue to change, particularly as a result
of technology. Increasing use of unmanned
systems may mean that, in the future, physical
conflict could occur between unmanned
systems (for example, using remotely piloted
aircraft to attack an unmanned oil installation).
The opportunities for bloodless attacks could
lower the threshold for conflict. Similarly,
as people become more connected and
dependent on technology, the potential for
inflicting significant harm on an adversary
without the need for violence, is likely to
increase. Power distribution networks or
banking systems could be closed down, rather
than more physically destructive action being
taken. Furthermore, globalisation is likely to
provide opportunities for actors to create
social and political instability. For example,
the reach and penetration of the internet
could be used to spread disinformation; social
media could be used to incite specific interest
groups and organisations; and the actor’s
diaspora communities could also be exploited,
particularly where they have local grievances.
When violence does occur, technology is likely
to make applying it more precise, and possibly,
more effective. For example, targeted
assassinations of the family members of a
ruling elite (or the threat of them) may have
more of a deterrent effect than the threat of
war. Nevertheless, war is ultimately a human
endeavour. It will be humans who choose
to go to war, it will be humans who can stop
wars and it will be humans who suffer the
consequences of war.
Defence and security implications
■■ The US and China are likely to have similarly sized defence budgets by 2045,
potentially out-spending the rest of the world.
■■ India could have a defence budget equivalent to the EU’s total spending on defence.
This would put India in a ‘second tier’ of global defence expenditure, with a ‘third
tier’ (comprising countries such as France, Germany, Russia and the UK).
■■ The link between expenditure and capability is not straightforward. Domestic
political problems may undermine the effectiveness of some countries’ armed
forces. Other countries may choose not to develop global military reach.
■■ Increasing real-terms equipment costs indicate that platforms will become ever
more expensive. Higher levels of defence spending may not lead to armed forces
larger than today’s.
posted without comment to allow other people to check/digest what I've said.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Hillary »

Nate Silver is running his rule over the election. http://fivethirtyeight.com/interactives ... edictions/

Currently he has

Tories - 281
Labour - 268
SNP - 49
Lib Dem - 26
DUP - 9
Sinn Fein - 5
Plaid Cymru - 4
UKIP - 2
SDLP - 2
Green - 1
UUP - 1
Ind - 2

Essentially this is a null result. Tories/Lib Dem - 307, Labour/SNP - 317. UKIP are dead in the water. Neither can get a majority unless Labour can persuade Clegg to join up with them.

He's updating daily.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Well fuck. Honestly I'd prefer an actual majority government, even if it's a party I don't like to all this coalition-building, hung-parliament bollocks.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Well fuck. Honestly I'd prefer an actual majority government, even if it's a party I don't like to all this coalition-building, hung-parliament bollocks.
That's what happens when your country has a very polarizing party and this sort of vote continues it.

Though, why the fuck do the Liberal Democrats want to side with a conservative party? Are they right wing now?
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Back in 2010 they thought they could play Kingmaker. It...didn't exactly work.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by ray245 »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:Well fuck. Honestly I'd prefer an actual majority government, even if it's a party I don't like to all this coalition-building, hung-parliament bollocks.
That's what happens when your country has a very polarizing party and this sort of vote continues it.

Though, why the fuck do the Liberal Democrats want to side with a conservative party? Are they right wing now?
Because the conservatives are in position to help them be part of the government and to call for a referendum to reform the election system in the previous election?
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

ray245 wrote:Because the conservatives are in position to help them be part of the government and to call for a referendum to reform the election system in the previous election?
The conservatives didn't do it for this election. What makes them think they would next?
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by ray245 »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
ray245 wrote:Because the conservatives are in position to help them be part of the government and to call for a referendum to reform the election system in the previous election?
The conservatives didn't do it for this election. What makes them think they would next?
Nate Silver might not be familiar enough with British politics to understand this?
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Darth Tanner »

Yes they did, they had their referendum on alternative vote and got quite a few of their policies in, raising the tax free allowance for instance ... admittedly not exactly what the Lib Dems wanted but probably as close as their ever going to get considering how junior they are in any coalition.

I really don't see another Lib Dem/Tory coalition though. Nicks going to most likely loose his seat for one! I foresee a minority Labour government held up by Lib Dems, SNP, Greens ect so we get 4-5 years of bugger all reform and lots of extra cash/debt spent on pocket policies/bribes for the minority parties. Then Scotland leaves the union.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Vendetta »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: That's what happens when your country has a very polarizing party and this sort of vote continues it.

Though, why the fuck do the Liberal Democrats want to side with a conservative party? Are they right wing now?
A little bit.

Lib Dems were originally supposed to be a centrist party but Clegg is closer to the left end of the tories. I kinda doubt he'd enter into a formal coalition again because a significant part of the reason the Lib Dems are going to take a savage kicking at this election and lose their status as the third party in Westminster to the SNP is how badly they performed in this coalition, abandoning most of their goals in order to secure some trivial bullshit.

If Clegg tries to get back into a coalition this time I'd expect him to be given the boot as party leader in short order.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Dartzap »

Naturally, elections bring out the....uh...best in comedy, so now for something completely different!









Its possible I'm just easily amused.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by The Guid »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Back in 2010 they thought they could play Kingmaker. It...didn't exactly work.
Well they did sort of decide who was going to be "King" in this analogy. And got a lot of their policies implemented. That is about as close to working as a third party is going to get in these situations.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Darth Nostril »

Dartzap wrote:Its possible I'm just easily amused.
It's not just you, I just snorted pear cider everywhere watching those.

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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

The rise in the profile of the SNP has taken many outside of Scotland by surprise, seemingly at the expense of UKIP. Not sure which I'd prefer- one wants to break up the UK, the other wants to break up the EU.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Vendetta »

Even before the SNP became popular UKIP were as popular in Scotland as genital warts in a brothel.

UKIP are so blatantly an English party that basically no Scottish people will think twice about them.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Zaune »

Vendetta wrote:UKIP are so blatantly an English party that basically no Scottish people will think twice about them.
If someone who wasn't born and raised in England said that, I'd accuse them of unjust racial stereotyping.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Vendetta »

Y'know, apart from the fact that English and Scottish people aren't particularly racially distinct.

UKIP are a nationalist party which almost entirely express the concerns of English nationalists and basically have little to say about anything else (where they can't be blamed on migrants and/or Europe anyway), concerns which really don't resonate much with Scottish people.

Remember that Scotland is politically significantly left of England, which is one of the reasons that the Tories have been fucked there since forever. (In fact it would be interesting to poll SNP supporters on whether they are attracted to the party because of nationalism or because of its social and economic policies being the only real clear left wing anti austerity voice in British politics).
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Zaune »

English and Polish people aren't that racially distinct either, but does that stop UKIP?
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

RE: coalitions, last time around the only viable setup was a Tory/Lib Dem one. Labour had taken such a hammering that even with the Lib Dems they still wouldn't have had enough MPs to form a majority.

I should amend my earlier statement, according to the news it's Labour that's suffered most, in Scotland they're haemorraging seats to the SNP.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by jwl »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:Well fuck. Honestly I'd prefer an actual majority government, even if it's a party I don't like to all this coalition-building, hung-parliament bollocks.
That's what happens when your country has a very polarizing party and this sort of vote continues it.

Though, why the fuck do the Liberal Democrats want to side with a conservative party? Are they right wing now?
As a party, no they're centralist, perhaps leading slightly towards the left if anything. But their current leadership is to the right of the party.
Vendetta wrote:Y'know, apart from the fact that English and Scottish people aren't particularly racially distinct.

UKIP are a nationalist party which almost entirely express the concerns of English nationalists and basically have little to say about anything else (where they can't be blamed on migrants and/or Europe anyway), concerns which really don't resonate much with Scottish people.
Well, Ukip seem to be doing well enough in Wales.
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:RE: coalitions, last time around the only viable setup was a Tory/Lib Dem one. Labour had taken such a hammering that even with the Lib Dems they still wouldn't have had enough MPs to form a majority.
It was the most viable setup, but it wasn't the only one. A Labour/Lib Dem/SNP/Plaid Cymru agreement would have been enough, and they wouldn't have even needed the northern irish parties. They could also have used Alliance and Greens instead of Plaid and still got a government without unionists or republicans, because of Alliance's neutrality on the issue. Contrast that with Nate Silver's prediction for this election, where any Tory-lead government really would be unviable. Tory/Lib Dem/DUP/Ukip/UUP/Speaker-steps-down still only gets you 320 seats, 3 short of the 323 needed for government.
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Re: UK General Election 2015

Post by Hillary »

Ooh, a slight movement from 538 - my own seat has changed prediction from Tory to Labour.

It's very odd - the first time I haven't voted in a massively safe seat. I've never really worried about tactical voting before, as my vote has meant diddly squat anyway. Suddenly I'm in the position where it could actually matter!

I may have to reconsider my plans for voting.
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