The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

[LaCroix]

How do the seperatists propose to deal with not being a Member of the EU?

Mainly, by claiming that they will remain members of the EU or be allowed in in no time flat.

After all, among the things being said lately, we have heard that after an hypothetical independence the citizens of Catalonia would retain Spanish nationality and therefore remain citizens of the EU, even if the new state itself isn't.

This only holds up if SPAIN doesn't revoke their citizenship after the secede. Which is unlikely.

[K. A. Pital]

The amnesty would not help them much if they end up officials of an unrecognized new nation outside the EU. Sure, they would be safe, but only inside Catalonia and not elsewhere. If Spain remains, then it would keep vetoing everything that could potentially let them trade with the EU or become a part of it.

The only world in which this gamble makes sense is a world where the EU itself ceases to exist shortly thereafter, as it was unable to protect the territorial integrity of member nations.

Then, I could imagine, Catalonia could very well forge new ties and acquire recognition. But not with the EU intact and Spain in it.

[Thanas]

It would not be the first independence movement that would promise that everything could go on as always except that this would clearly not be the case. Just look at the UK and Brexit.

Maybe, but promising and understanding are two different things. Surely the Catalonia officials who have gone forth with a blatant act of defying the central government, understand the consequences. The people may be misguided, but not the supporting officials, which makes me question their desire to get richer. They certainly risk a lot, possibly even unrecognized state status and black marks in their passports, if it comes to this.

Given how according to Murazor their plan is a blatant lie I am quite confident to say that lacking the bravery to pull off such bullshit is not what they are lacking in.

[Murazor]

Given how according to Murazor their plan is a blatant lie I am quite confident to say that lacking the bravery to pull off such bullshit is not what they are lacking in.

To clarify, the current nationalist government is in an extremely shaky position and guaranteed to implode after the referendum, regardless of outcome, for a variety of reasons.

The main nationalist group currently in government is Junts pel Si a big tent platform that includes from far left to christian democrats, but its heart is Convergencia, one half of the coalition party that has ruled Catalonia for the best part of the last four decades. However, to get anything done in the regional government they depend on support of the CUP (anti-capitalist, anti-system party of faint anarchist inspirations), which pretty much demanded that Independence Now be at least tried in exchange for their support.

Since lots and lots of senior Convergencia officials are currently involved with ongoing trials over corruption matters that are eyebrow raising, even after watching the Spanish news for the last decade, this reads at least in part to me like an attempt to kick the can down the road one last time on the part of some of the people currently promoting the independence referendum.

[mr friendly guy]

The Guardian may be fake news, but in this case its just sourcing images from twitter so I will post it here (its still early days yet so I don't expect them journalists to confirm anything yet).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... live#img-1

Pictures of people being bloodied in the clashes and video of police firing what is stated to be rubber bullets. Its a bit harder to argue against video evidence that they fired something.

[Murazor]

The Guardian may be fake news, but in this case its just sourcing images from twitter so I will post it here (its still early days yet so I don't expect them journalists to confirm anything yet).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... live#img-1

Pictures of people being bloodied in the clashes and video of police firing what is stated to be rubber bullets. Its a bit harder to argue against video evidence that they fired something.

Not fake news, at all, and confirmed both by official sources and on-site journalists.

Somebody has fucked up, hard.

[Thanas]

I pretty much agree with Verhofstadt here

[Dartzap]

Wait, what? Why is the Graun fake news, beyond the dubious spellchecking?

[Thanas]

Wait, what? Why is the Graun fake news, beyond the dubious spellchecking?

Because fans of the chinese dictatorship do not like its coverage.

[LaCroix]

This is appalling...

[streetad]

This has the potential to turn into a clusterfuck of epic proportions - and one far more damaging to the future EU 'project' than Brexit.

[White Haven]

Fuck's sake, I didn't mean to be a prophet with my earlier post. This isn't just appalling, this is absurd; metaphorically shouting 'we're not oppressing you, so stop trying to vote' while beating people senseless.

Does Spain secretly want to provide backing for Catalan fears? Leaving aside whether you believe they should be able to split (or talk about splitting) or not, this is just rank fucking idiocy. According to polling information, the pro-independence faction was going to lose if Spain's government just ignored them until after the vote. Now? Who fucking knows what's going to happen.

[mr friendly guy]

Wait, what? Why is the Graun fake news, beyond the dubious spellchecking?

Because fans of the chinese dictatorship accurate reporting do not like its coverage.

Corrected it for you buddy.

As I pointed out in a previous thread which Thanas posted in but obviously didn't read, when the Guardian writes according to Chinese news "China executes rioterprotester who was guilty of arson," when the original article was "China executes rioter who was guilty of arson AND MURDERING 5 PEOPLE," to spin the news, then yeah, it doesn't deserve to be treated as real news.

Now back to Catalonia, the Catalan government claims a 90% vote for independence with a turnout of 42.3%. I am willing to bet the anti independence voters didn't turn up because the shit the Spanish government was threatening to do, and ended up doing. Despite this, the turnout should have been higher because we have video evidence of Spanish authorities taking away the boxes used to cast the ballot. So I assume those people weren't counted in the turnout figure or the final vote.

[Elfdart]

I thought Spain was through with this kind of thing when Franco died. I thought wrong:

http://twitter.com/Atrios/status/914441744380563459

Congratulations to the right-wing government in Spain for making a case for secession that the Catalans themselves couldn't. It must take a lot of training and bravery to don stormtrooper armor and drag women around by the hair.

[Thanas]

As I pointed out in a previous thread which Thanas posted in but obviously didn't read, when the Guardian writes according to Chinese news "China executes rioterprotester who was guilty of arson," when the original article was "China executes rioter who was guilty of arson AND MURDERING 5 PEOPLE," to spin the news, then yeah, it doesn't deserve to be treated as real news.

That thread got locked due to your inability to argue rationally, so best keep this argument out of this one. Your status as a panegyricist to china is also well-known here, so we shall also not muddle this thread with it. Open another thread about those arguments.

[Murazor]

Now back to Catalonia, the Catalan government claims a 90% vote for independence with a turnout of 42.3%. I am willing to bet the anti independence voters didn't turn up because the shit the Spanish government was threatening to do, and ended up doing. Despite this, the turnout should have been higher because we have video evidence of Spanish authorities taking away the boxes used to cast the ballot. So I assume those people weren't counted in the turnout figure or the final vote.

More because anti independence had been boycotting this as a matter of policy for the opposition parties within Catalonia and the impact of the police going full stupid on turnout is a bit fuzzy, because it certainly didn't decrease it in an obvious way and might have even increased it as a protest mechanism.

[The Romulan Republic]

Fuck's sake, I didn't mean to be a prophet with my earlier post. This isn't just appalling, this is absurd; metaphorically shouting 'we're not oppressing you, so stop trying to vote' while beating people senseless.

Does Spain secretly want to provide backing for Catalan fears? Leaving aside whether you believe they should be able to split (or talk about splitting) or not, this is just rank fucking idiocy. According to polling information, the pro-independence faction was going to lose if Spain's government just ignored them until after the vote. Now? Who fucking knows what's going to happen.

And now I'm wondering if this is going to turn into the first civil war in Western Europe in recent history.

[Murazor]

And now I'm wondering if this is going to turn into the first civil war in Western Europe in recent history.

Not a war as such, because there is no military to fight against, but one of the very bad case scenarios is Catalonia becoming like Northern Ireland during the troubles, in steroids, while Spain falls into international pariah status.

If you cannot tell, I am not hugely thrilled with my government right this moment.

[AniThyng]

And now I'm wondering if this is going to turn into the first civil war in Western Europe in recent history.

Not a war as such, because there is no military to fight against, but one of the very bad case scenarios is Catalonia becoming like Northern Ireland during the troubles, in steroids, while Spain falls into international pariah status.

If you cannot tell, I am not hugely thrilled with my government right this moment.

I take it there's no such thing as predominantly Catalan military units and any Catalans in the armed forces are distributed into mixed units?

[LaCroix]

I take it there's no such thing as predominantly Catalan military units and any Catalans in the armed forces are distributed into mixed units?

[half-joking]They have the Barca fanblock (Boixos Nois) to do the fighting for them...[/joking]

The military is quite mixed and I'd assume about 20% should be Catalan, but it's only 80000 men in the standing army. I think police has twice the numbers, same composition. Them turning would be an inconvenience, but no civil war - 5:1 numerical disadvantage does not bode too well for them.

Still, Cataluna has about 8 million inhabitants. If only half of the pro-secession block (40%, or therabout) would take to the streets, then we are talking about hundred thousands or millions of protesters. I have no idea how they plan to control this, and a violent revolt is looking a lot more likely, now, after these displays of police brutality.

Fining them won't dissuade them from going back to the streets, immediately. How do lock them up? Arizona-Style prison camps? Or straight to summary execution?

This has all the ingrediants for a Grade A mess...

[The Romulan Republic]

Don't you just love how they secessionists reportedly have 40% support, yet they are claiming a win of 90% in the referendum? Yeah, that sure sounds legitimate.

I'm not saying that the Spanish government's handling of it has been anything like ideal, because from all the reports I'm seeing its pretty clear that they exacerbated the situation, but call this what it to all appearances is: an anti-democratic armed revolt. If this happened in my own country, I'd be entirely in support of the government putting it down by force of arms, if it came to that. Hell, I'd be tempted to sign up myself.

I don't suppose that, in the event of an armed uprising, Spain could get military assistance from the EU or NATO?

[Dartzap]

Don't you just love how they secessionists reportedly have 40% support, yet they are claiming a win of 90% in the referendum? Yeah, that sure sounds legitimate.

I'm not saying that the Spanish government's handling of it has been anything like ideal, because from all the reports I'm seeing its pretty clear that they exacerbated the situation, but call this what it to all appearances is: an anti-democratic armed revolt. If this happened in my own country, I'd be entirely in support of the government putting it down by force of arms, if it came to that. Hell, I'd be tempted to sign up myself.

I don't suppose that, in the event of an armed uprising, Spain could get military assistance from the EU or NATO?

The perception war of who is 'right' and 'wrong'in this instance has already been won by the secessionists. You don't send in the fuzz heavy handed to stop people voting, especially if it has been established as being non-binding. Firing rubber bullets at people at a polling station is a staggering show of idiocy and contempt.

You express yourself as a proponent of democracy, but fuck me if your not coming across like a colonial official in the 19th century.

[The Romulan Republic]

Don't you just love how they secessionists reportedly have 40% support, yet they are claiming a win of 90% in the referendum? Yeah, that sure sounds legitimate.

I'm not saying that the Spanish government's handling of it has been anything like ideal, because from all the reports I'm seeing its pretty clear that they exacerbated the situation, but call this what it to all appearances is: an anti-democratic armed revolt. If this happened in my own country, I'd be entirely in support of the government putting it down by force of arms, if it came to that. Hell, I'd be tempted to sign up myself.

I don't suppose that, in the event of an armed uprising, Spain could get military assistance from the EU or NATO?

The perception war of who is 'right' and 'wrong'in this instance has already been won by the secessionists. You don't send in the fuzz heavy handed to stop people voting, especially if it has been established as being non-binding. Firing rubber bullets at people at a polling station is a staggering show of idiocy and contempt.

You express yourself as a proponent of democracy, but fuck me if your not coming across like a colonial official in the 19th century.

I acknowledged that the government response was wrong. But hey, ignore that.

But I don't give a fucking shit about "perception", nor do I see any inconsistency in my positions. Because you know what's not democratic? Allowing a militant minority to unilaterally rip a country apart through violence. And that's what I see here. If you have evidence to support an alternative interpretation, present it.

Show me the oppression that would justify Catalans defying the law, risking civil war, and tearing their country apart (and threatening the stability of the EU in the process). And no, some incidents of police brutality (deplorable as it is) after the revolt had already begun does not count. Hell, show me the evidence that the majority of Catalans actually want this. If you can provide said evidence, from a credible source, I'll gladly concede the point.

Colonialism my ass. I'm treating this shit the exact same way I would if the Southern States of my own country decided to take up arms and unilaterally secede again. Part of having a democracy is having a common set of rules by which your political system functions, which can only be discarded in the most extreme circumstances- because otherwise the whole thing falls apart the moment someone decides that they'd rather revolt because they didn't get their way.

Democracy and a right to unilateral armed secession cannot co-exist.

[Crazedwraith]

What Militant minority? I'm sorry but the only reports I can see of violence is from the Spanish police.

The Catalans set up a referendum, arguably illegally but that's not armed secession, so I'm not sure what you're referring to TRR?

[Dartzap]

Democracy and a right to unilateral armed secession cannot co-exist.

Oh goody, when do we get the American colonies back then?

If people don't like the status quo, there has to be a means of letting them express it, beyond the usual voting for who represents you in the building where the status quo emanates. Why are the Catalans (or however many of them would like to be independent) not allowed to express that view through a referendum, without fear of getting a rubber bullet to the face?

If you want to have a go at someone, go shout at those who write national constitutions assuming that everyone will always be happy with it, and not allowing an ounce of pragmatism to direct them to adding in peaceful means of exiting a union.