Las Vegas Shooting

[Lonestar]

So? Ten rifles will fit in a duffel bag. .

Not they won't, Two might, but not 10.

And it isn't just ten rifles, it's also the hundreds of round of ammo

[Alyrium Denryle]

If I bother to notice you at all Flagg it's to feel sad for you. You are so very sad.

Which doesn't excuse you from providing evidence for claims you have made (and no you did not do so in your response to Simon, you simply said another option was plausible). Do you have evidence that the weapons used were from a legal source?

Just rip off the bandage Flagg, then you can go back to dancing on the backs of the fallen as you are so fond of doing.

You only crawl out of the sewer to troll, so I don’t concern myself with your opinion of me. Frankly, you are funny as hell. Just like everyone else I laugh at you and every pathetic attempt at baiting me and others.

Then helping him derail threads? You could also do a better job constructing arguments so they are less vulnerable to nitpickery.

[Flagg]

If I bother to notice you at all Flagg it's to feel sad for you. You are so very sad.

Which doesn't excuse you from providing evidence for claims you have made (and no you did not do so in your response to Simon, you simply said another option was plausible). Do you have evidence that the weapons used were from a legal source?

Just rip off the bandage Flagg, then you can go back to dancing on the backs of the fallen as you are so fond of doing.

You only crawl out of the sewer to troll, so I don’t concern myself with your opinion of me. Frankly, you are funny as hell. Just like everyone else I laugh at you and every pathetic attempt at baiting me and others.

Then helping him derail threads? You could also do a better job constructing arguments so they are less vulnerable to nitpickery.

I, like almost everyone was speculating. The only sure fire argument I made was that any attempt at legislation to prevent another incident like this would be met with the hew and cry of the gun lobby.

And when Simon pointed out that my and Jub’s line of speculation was premature I admitted as much. I jumped the gun (not trying to be funny) and went too far out on a limb.

Sorry if I overly mocked the troll with the vendetta, and I’m not being sarcastic or glib, I should have toned it down.

[Elheru Aran]

So? Ten rifles will fit in a duffel bag. .

Not they won't, Two might, but not 10.

And it isn't just ten rifles, it's also the hundreds of round of ammo

I dunno, those old military issue green duffel bags are pretty roomy. If you're taking the magazine out and sticking them in, you *might* be able to fit four or five of the skinnier models in, jam the magazines in between the guns. AKs in particular aren't all that thick compared to AR-types thanks to being mostly flat and slab-sided. I had a duffel bag back in college that was around 40"long x 12"+ wide when fully packed and closed. That's (I think) probably big enough to fit multiple AKs and a few magazines.

Civilian duffel or gym bags do tend to be smaller, and "ten rifles will fit" is probably stretching it a bit unless you're talking something like the size of a body bag. A hockey bag might do it.

EDIT: And as for housekeeping, they aren't supposed to bother people's belongings. They come in, they make the bed, clean up any obvious messes and trash, change the towels, and that's it. All he had to do was keep the long-guns covered or zipped up and they wouldn't have known.

[Broomstick]

\Not really, unless they were spare parts. It is possible he brought 10 to have spare parts for experimenting with modifications. If he really wanted to hot-switch them, he would have brought them with him rather than leave them in the apartment.

He did, I'm referencing the ones found in the hotel room.

Yeah, 10 rifles and at least one handgun were found in the hotel room, that's been consistent in the reports. He brought at least 11 guns to the massacre.

He also had more weaponry at home back in Mesquite, too, but that's not what we were referring to.

The news is reporting that he purchased guns from at least two Las Vegas dealers, but it seems all procedures and laws were properly followed there.

[Solauren]

I can see how this could come about.

Get a bunch of legal rifles that can be modified to fully automatic.
Learn how to do it.
Practice on them, until you get it right.
This would involve target shoting somewhere. Nevada has a lot of open territory around it for that.
Especially if you can get a silencer for the weapon type in question/rig one up.

Eventually you end up with at least one, or more, automatic weapon that works reliably.

The more you have, the more you can switch weapons as they overheat.

The alternative is these are older weapons (there is a bank robber in the family) that were cached somewhere the shooter knew about.
He could even have justified keeping them interally with 'those are worth a lot of money, I might be able to find a way to sell them one day."

Anyway, with a little effort, and not caring about the law, the weapons are easy enough to get.

Getting them into the hotel? No problem.
Get one of those nice big 'hanging ward-drobe' steamer trunks (or a large one or two). So, large, strong, sturdy, high end, expensive luggage.
(especially if he knew how to take the weapons apart).

Bring that all in, and make sure the casino staff see you dressed well and gambling. (If you plan to off yourself, money is not an issue, after all).
Now he's just a guy throwing around money. Older guy like that? Probably just retired well off, and is celebrating.

And it would be easy to arrange escorts to go back to his hotel room with him to make it look like he's living it up. (Or he could have lived it up prior to the day he had to get ready).

Nothing suspicious to casino or hotel folk like that. Hell, if he was spending money there, that's the kind they want!

Now, just wait for the concert, set up, and open fire.

Very easy.

[Solauren]

Oh, added note cause he purchased weapons in Vegas. Learn how to modify, then buy the weapons in Vegas themself. Now you don't have to transport them.

Getting them in still requires a little thought, but still, easily doable.

[Wicked Pilot]

Someone checking into a hotel, with a bell cart piled high with crap, is not gonna garner any attention. I spend half my month in hotels, I see it all the time, especially in places that are automobile centric.

[Highlord Laan]

Nothing to see or learn from, move along.

Don’t try to put measures in place to prevent these acts in the future or you’ll be accused of “politicizing” it.

Maybe President Cockroach will dedicate a golf trophy to the victims while congratulating himself.

The measures are in place. It's illegal for civilians to own fully automatic weapons unless they have an FFL, which requires a fairly large sum of money, getting fingerprinted, being in a federal registry, have to report the tax stamp every year, and be subject to inspection at any given time. If this man had all of those, than it's a tragedy where the system failed. If he didn't have even one of them it means any measure wouldn't have stopped him anyway, since it's not like criminals respect laws.

But feel free to bitch and moan and pretend to be on a soapbox atop a hill of moral high ground if it makes you feel any better, you fucking idiot.

[MKSheppard]

I am curious how he managed to pack 10 rifles + ammo in there with no one noticing.

He'd been staying in a really expensive suite for the last few days; square footage of like 1,000+ ft2; so nobody's going to notice that Mr. big shot high roller is rolling in with a decent amount of luggage; and if he did use ARMALYTES, you can remove the upper from the lower to reduce OAL to fit into suitcases.

Basically maybe one or two trips on the elevator with a luggage cart.

[MKSheppard]

And it isn't just ten rifles, it's also the hundreds of round of ammo

100~ rounds of 5.56 isn't that bulky, if properly packaged, as opposed to "ziploc bag".

[Lonestar]

My understanding is that he used AK=patter rifles, not ARs. Rob Pincus on Instagram had a fellow firearms instructor at the concert and he thought it was 7.62x39.

[MKSheppard]

This guy basically used common weapons as a poor-man's machine-gun; or if you will, indirect fire artillery.

There's really no defense against this type of attack, other than carefully choosing the location of your concert to not be in an area surrounded by public access high rise buildings with clear line of sight to the concert area.

(It's feasible that in 25 years; portable radars and lasers will have advanced enough to form a "shot stopper" CIWS to detect and shoot down incoming bullets in flight for VIP protection, but that's 25 years from now).|

He could pretty much have pulled this off with any infantry rifle of the last 100 years; thanks to adjustable indirect grazing fire sights:

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.hk/2010 ... ights.html

tl;dr version: Buy a Rifle, No. 4 Mk I (Enfield), put it in a shooting rest

http://www.cabelas.com/category/Benches ... 212080.uts

And elevate it to a predetermined angle calculated beforehand through google earth, or do final calculations with a hunting laser rangefinder and a ballistics app/program for your cartridge.

Fire as fast as you can, and use stripper clips to reload -- you'll probably be able to beat the record of 18 RPM for a Enfield; since you're not really aiming; and any dispersion from the shooting rest moving around will act in your favor by spreading the beaten zone around.

And the thing is; this method can't be banned unless you ban everything more lethal than a .22LR; this method being utterly impractical in the US, due to the Gun Control lobby's long rote rule that "we are all for responsible hunting, blah blah blah", making it utterly impossible to ban any cartridge with the energy required for indirect fire killing.

[Flagg]

Nothing to see or learn from, move along.

Don’t try to put measures in place to prevent these acts in the future or you’ll be accused of “politicizing” it.

Maybe President Cockroach will dedicate a golf trophy to the victims while congratulating himself.

The measures are in place. It's illegal for civilians to own fully automatic weapons unless they have an FFL, which requires a fairly large sum of money, getting fingerprinted, being in a federal registry, have to report the tax stamp every year, and be subject to inspection at any given time. If this man had all of those, than it's a tragedy where the system failed. If he didn't have even one of them it means any measure wouldn't have stopped him anyway, since it's not like criminals respect laws.

But feel free to bitch and moan and pretend to be on a soapbox atop a hill of moral high ground if it makes you feel any better, you fucking idiot.

We don’t actually know that he used fully automatic weapons, that’s conjecture at this point, or have you missed the rest of the back and forth on that measure in this thread? And since the gun lobby is flat out against any new legislation and is trying to roll back the legislation that exists (currently they are trying to roll back restrictions on suppressors aka “silencers”) I feel quite comfortable on my high ground and not at all like an idiot.

[MKSheppard]

My understanding is that he used AK=patter rifles, not ARs. Rob Pincus on Instagram had a fellow firearms instructor at the concert and he thought it was 7.62x39.

It doesn't really matter, as the size difference between 7.62x39 and 5.56 are not that great; and you can always remove the rear stock of a AK pattern rifle to reduce OAL for shipment -- it's just messier than with an ARMALYTE.

It's not like he was strapped for time in setting all this up.

[Flagg]

Nothing to see or learn from, move along.

Don’t try to put measures in place to prevent these acts in the future or you’ll be accused of “politicizing” it.

Maybe President Cockroach will dedicate a golf trophy to the victims while congratulating himself.

The measures are in place. It's illegal for civilians to own fully automatic weapons unless they have an FFL, which requires a fairly large sum of money, getting fingerprinted, being in a federal registry, have to report the tax stamp every year, and be subject to inspection at any given time. If this man had all of those, than it's a tragedy where the system failed. If he didn't have even one of them it means any measure wouldn't have stopped him anyway, since it's not like criminals respect laws.

But feel free to bitch and moan and pretend to be on a soapbox atop a hill of moral high ground if it makes you feel any better, you fucking idiot.

We don’t actually know that he used fully automatic weapons, that’s conjecture at this point, or have you missed the rest of the back and forth on that measure in this thread? And since the gun lobby is flat out against any new legislation and is trying to roll back the legislation that exists (currently they are trying to roll back restrictions on suppressors aka “silencers”) I feel quite comfortable on my high ground and not at all like an idiot.

And to add: If the system failed then it’s clear that no private citizen should own fully automatic weapons. At least it is to me, someone who isn’t willing to see 58 (at last count) killed and over 400 (at last count) injured by one guy so that a few hundred (or thousand) people across the country can have toys to play with. And before you bring up the Oklahoma City Bombing, ammonium nitrate became tracked and regulated in an attempt to prevent it from happening again.

If this guy used illegally modified weapons then a possible solution to something like this happening again could be to monitor and regulate the sale and stockpiling of ammunition.

Because you may be willing to just throw up your hands and say “It’s a trajedy, the system has failed” while casting aspersions at those of us sick of hearing about how it’s a tragedy the system failed every couple years (or less), but I’m not.
I’m wanting to do things to make the system better so it won’t fail, or at least mitigate the failures.

If that makes me a fucking idiot on the moral high ground then I’m proud to be one.

[MKSheppard]

And to add: If the system failed then it’s clear that no private citizen should own fully automatic weapons.

The case that decided the National Firearms Act basically said that if it's non military use, it can be regulated and controlled tightly, since it's not suitable for milita use.

[Elheru Aran]

This guy basically used common weapons as a poor-man's machine-gun; or if you will, indirect fire artillery.[snip]

While an interesting notion, would this permit fire fast enough to approximate the sound of an automatic?

Also, for obvious reasons, this would require a certain amount of pre-planning and practice. I would not be surprised if, for at least some time after this incident, people requesting specific rooms are asked a few pointed questions about why, particularly if said rooms face popular venues from a high position.

In any case, it's pointless to speculate further about what weapons he used until official details are released. Probably in a day or two.

[LadyTevar]

We don’t actually know that he used fully automatic weapons, that’s conjecture at this point, or have you missed the rest of the back and forth on that measure in this thread? And since the gun lobby is flat out against any new legislation and is trying to roll back the legislation that exists (currently they are trying to roll back restrictions on suppressors aka “silencers”) I feel quite comfortable on my high ground and not at all like an idiot.

The conjecture is based on several concert video recordings, where the gunfire heard is uninterrupted, constant, and consistent. This doesn't mean it was absolutely automatic weapon fire, but the current evidence at hand is leaning that way.

From what I understand, burst fire would have been recorded as clusters of shots, with brief pauses between. Manual fire would pauses between each shot as the bullet was chambered and trigger pulled. Neither of those patterns match the gunshots recorded on the various recordings. However, we won't know for sure until and unless the Vegas police make a statement.

Another conjecture that's going around is WHY.
Many are leaning towards "Crazy Old Geezer". Neighbors are already stating he was the kind to keep to himself and not talk much. Others are pointing out his father was a FBI-wanted criminal (which might be where he got the weapons).

What makes me curious is he was involved with a woman, age 62. He used her information to book the hotel and pay for things. She was found to be traveling "out of the country". Now, why would a woman go out of the country on a trip without the man she's been seeing? Did they have a breakup, which triggered his rampage? Did he think she'd be at the concert, or had family who'd be there? Is is all a huge Domestic Violence situation?

[Elheru Aran]

It's also quite possible that he simply stole the woman's information. He is described as her "roommate" at a senior living facility from what I've seen, so their relationship status is up in the air (AFAIK).

EDIT: Re-reading an article that I read earlier, it's been updated and does describe the woman as a 'longtime girlfriend'.

[Flagg]

And to add: If the system failed then it’s clear that no private citizen should own fully automatic weapons.

The case that decided the National Firearms Act basically said that if it's non military use, it can be regulated and controlled tightly, since it's not suitable for milita use.

Yeah, and I know it’s very strictly regulated out the ass and I doubt that this guy legally obtained a fully automatic weapon assuming fully automatic weapon(s) were used since we are still at the speculation stage.

But for the sake of argument: If he did have one legally then the question has to be asked: With all of the obstacles and restrictions in place (and I don’t need an education on what they are, it’s damned hard to qualify and get approval), if someone who will do what happened in Las Vegas can meet them, are more stringent regulations needed? Would they prevent another incident like what happened in Las Vegas? If they can’t, what are the benefits to society of private citizens having these fully automatic weapons? Are those benefits, if any, greater than the dangers? If not, why the fuck should a private citizen have one?

[Gandalf]

I've noticed that CNN went from "Deadliest shooting in US history" to "Deadliest shooting in modern US history."

Presumably someone reminded them about how they got the land in the first place.

[The Romulan Republic]

I've noticed that CNN went from "Deadliest shooting in US history" to "Deadliest shooting in modern US history."

Presumably someone reminded them about how they got the land in the first place.

Yes, I figured their were some "Indian wars" massacres that surpassed it.

But still, horrific, and unprecedented in modern history. The only things I can think of that really come close to this are major bombings/terrorist attacks, and even then, only Oklahoma City and 9/11 are on a comparable or greater scale.

Edit: Well, their were a few mass shootings with death tolls in the dozens that I can recall. But none with likely fully automatic weapons or several hundred injuries.

[Elheru Aran]

I've noticed that CNN went from "Deadliest shooting in US history" to "Deadliest shooting in modern US history."

Presumably someone reminded them about how they got the land in the first place.

Yes, I figured their were some "Indian wars" massacres that surpassed it.

But still, horrific, and unprecedented in modern history. The only things I can think of that really come close to this are major bombings/terrorist attacks, and even then, only Oklahoma City and 9/11 are on a comparable or greater scale.

Edit: Well, their were a few mass shootings with death tolls in the dozens that I can recall. But none with likely fully automatic weapons or several hundred injuries.

The Pulse nightclub shooting last year was close, something like 50 people killed and a hundred or more injured. I expect many of the injuries in this case though came from stampeding and falls given the size of the crowd.

[Civil War Man]

The Pulse nightclub shooting last year was close, something like 50 people killed and a hundred or more injured. I expect many of the injuries in this case though came from stampeding and falls given the size of the crowd.

There probably were a bunch of injuries from that. Going by a statement from one of the performers at the concert, a lot of the injuries may have also been caused by shrapnel from bullets splintering.

Link to the full statement on Twitter (relevant part underlined in copy below)

I’ve been a proponent of the 2nd amendment my entire life.

Until the events of last night. I cannot express how wrong I was. We actually have members of our crew with CHL licenses, and legal firearms on the bus.

They were useless.

We couldn’t touch them for fear police might think that we were part of the massacre and shoot us. A small group (or one man) laid waste to a city with dedicated, fearless police officers desperately trying to help, because of access to an insane amount of fire power.

Enough is enough.

Writing my parents and the love of my life a goodbye note last night and a living will because I felt like I wasn’t going to live through the night was enough for me to realize that this is completely and totally out of hand. These rounds were powerful enough that my crew guys just standing in close proximity of a victim shot by this fucking coward received shrapnel wounds.

We need gun control RIGHT. NOW.

My biggest regret is that I stubbornly didn’t realize it until my brothers on the road and myself were threatened by it.

We are unbelievably fortunate to not be among the victims killed or seriously wounded by this maniac.