Pals start throwing rocks at worshippers at the Wailing Wall

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-09-13 01:37am

Israel and Palestine. Two nations stuck in their own little world. Oh well.

And there was that one bit said somewhere that to back down slightly and talk negotiating is like showing a sign of weakness to Arabs and Arabs take that as an incentive to press on with more and more violence.

To the whole religion debate: To rid the world of religion, in my opinion, you'll have to kill it. Literally. Something to the order of taking every child of a religious family, then blowing up all traces of religion, then either locking away or exterminating said family. Then give the children to non-religious family and forbid the very thought of religion.

Pretty soon or after a long time, no religion.

There's an emotional appeal to religion, so I doubt anyone can erase it from everyone's thoughts without resorting to extreme methods.

Anyway, it's Israel and Palestine. No big surprise.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-09-13 01:40am

Xenophobe3691 wrote:Well, if the world were all about objective value, it would be a very boring place. Just because you denounce a work of art as a waste of oil, pigments, and canvas, doesn't mean another person can't see a woman in black with a hypnotizing, mysterious smile that's captivated people for centuries...

But if people spend the next two millenia butchering each other over that painting, I think I can say they'd have been better off without it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-13 01:40am

Xenophobe3691 wrote:Well, if the world were all about objective value, it would be a very boring place. Just because you denounce a work of art as a waste of oil, pigments, and canvas, doesn't mean another person can't see a woman in black with a hypnotizing, mysterious smile that's captivated people for centuries...

Still nothing worth killing people over. That's my problem with "holy sites". It's not that I see no value whatsoever in art, but it had better be some pretty fucking impressive value to justify the kinds of problems that these particular places cause.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-09-13 01:40am

Darth Wong wrote: Well, it's an imperfect solution. The ideal solution would be to get all of these people to drop their religious differences (which basically means they drop their religions), but of course, that won't happen. People cling to their religions rather tenaciously (violently if necessary) because it's a group-identification thing: a rather unfortunate side-effect of our pack-animal instinct.

That is, in my opinion, a better explanation for racism then it is for religion. People cling to religion because they either do not know how to, or refuse, to think the issue through rationally. Either way, the root is the same: irrationality. To solve both of these problems we need to start teaching logic and the scientific method, and its underlying principles, at an early age. This will in turn (eventually) prevent a HUGE amount of the irrational brutality in the world. Of course, this will never happen due to the irrationality of parents..... I can't imagine religous nut parents reacting very well when their child comes home asking for empirical evidence for the existence of Jesus or Allah (or any other "divine" figure).

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-09-13 01:43am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:That is, in my opinion, a better explanation for racism then it is for religion. People cling to religion because they either do not know how to, or refuse, to think the issue through rationally. Either way, the root is the same: irrationality. To solve both of these problems we need to start teaching logic and the scientific method, and its underlying principles, at an early age. This will in turn (eventually) prevent a HUGE amount of the irrational brutality in the world. Of course, this will never happen due to the irrationality of parents..... I can't imagine religous nut parents reacting very well when their child comes home asking for empirical evidence for the existence of Jesus or Allah (or any other "divine" figure).

Hence why you have to abduct every child, then kill parents, then give children to new parents.

But since we'll never come to that point, we just have to live with this kind of stuff.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-09-13 01:43am

EmperorSolo51 wrote:So, you'd be willing to destroy pricless artifacts and manuscripts that can teach people about who they were and what they believed in

Yes. This sort of horseshit is vastly overrated. Most regular people couldn't care less about some manuscript dug out of an old temple. Even the religous fanatics don't give a shit about it. They just want a reason to kill one another.

as well as destroy cities like Kyoto, Rome, and Delhi, etc which are thriving centers of Human culture from yesteryear to today?

Already addressed by Darth Wong.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-09-13 01:44am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:Yes. This sort of horseshit is vastly overrated. Most regular people couldn't care less about some manuscript dug out of an old temple. Even the religous fanatics don't give a shit about it. They just want a reason to kill one another.

I think archaeologists would say otherwise, unless you consider archaeology a useless field and one that should be done away with.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-13 01:47am

Shinova wrote:
GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:Yes. This sort of horseshit is vastly overrated. Most regular people couldn't care less about some manuscript dug out of an old temple. Even the religous fanatics don't give a shit about it. They just want a reason to kill one another.
I think archaeologists would say otherwise, unless you consider archaeology a useless field and one that should be done away with.

Archaeology is of historical interest, but hypothetically speaking, if you had to choose between ending all of the bloodshed and hatred stewing over Jerusalem and saving its historical value, would you seriously choose its historical value?

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-09-13 01:56am

Darth Wong wrote: Archaeology is of historical interest, but hypothetically speaking, if you had to choose between ending all of the bloodshed and hatred stewing over Jerusalem and saving its historical value, would you seriously choose its historical value?

Your assuming eliminating the artifacts would eliminate the bloodshed. Even if all the "holy objects" suddently disappeared overnight the fact remains that the Isreali vs Palistine conflict would contine because both of them, regardless of the validity of their claims (trying to aviod sparking an Isreal vs Palastine debate) consider the area their home. As such, both the Isrealis and the Palastinians would probably continue their current course of action. Fruthermore, even if the artifacts themselves were the only thing motivating the conflict you would still have the "foot print" left in the area of the buildings; these would undoubtedly still be considered "holy". I mean think about it, the Jews are already down to worshipping a wall, do you really think it would make that big a difference if they were reduced to worshipping an area where stones use to be instead of an area with stacked stones?

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-09-13 02:07am

"Yes. This sort of horseshit is vastly overrated. Most regular people couldn't care less about some manuscript dug out of an old temple. Even the religous fanatics don't give a shit about it. They just want a reason to kill one another."

So sue me for replying to a blatant troll here, but GAP, thanks for just proving everyone else's point.

Now fuck off and die, fucker.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-13 02:28am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:I mean think about it, the Jews are already down to worshipping a wall, do you really think it would make that big a difference if they were reduced to worshipping an area where stones use to be instead of an area with stacked stones?

Hmmm, good point. The meteor would have to pollute the immediate area with lethal radiation in order to keep them away.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-09-13 02:40am

Darth Wong wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:I mean think about it, the Jews are already down to worshipping a wall, do you really think it would make that big a difference if they were reduced to worshipping an area where stones use to be instead of an area with stacked stones?
Hmmm, good point. The meteor would have to pollute the immediate area with lethal radiation in order to keep them away.

Still wouldn't work, they'd go to the closest point and worship towards the general direction. They did it before liberating the Old City from Jordan.

That, and worshipping a wall really isn't the whole part of it. It's the closest point to the central altar stone (Which is the center of the Dome of the Rock, BTW), and that's the closest point you can get to without going inside the dome and pissing off a shitload of Muslims. So you'd pretty much have to kill every Jew off to stop them from praying at least in the general direction (Which is why Synagogues in the US are always pointed East, towards Jerusalem.)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-13 02:51am

Xenophobe3691 wrote:So you'd pretty much have to kill every Jew off to stop them from praying at least in the general direction (Which is why Synagogues in the US are always pointed East, towards Jerusalem.)

It doesn't matter if they're praying in its general direction. The idea is to stop Muslims and Jews and Christians from stepping on each others' toes to pray in the same spot, often with violent consequences.

Advocate · Post by **Advocate** » 2003-09-13 03:10am

What really pisses me off is the fact that these three major religions all basically come from the same source.

Being a Christian living in a Muslim-majority country, I can safely say that it ispossible to pray in the same spot without stepping on each other's toes. Its basically just being able to respect each other's views and opinions. [/i]

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-09-13 03:21am

Advocate wrote:What really pisses me off is the fact that these three major religions all basically come from the same source.

Being a Christian living in a Muslim-majority country, I can safely say that it ispossible to pray in the same spot without stepping on each other's toes. Its basically just being able to respect each other's views and opinions. [/i]

Um....Judaism and it's branch, Christianity, both come from Jerusalem. Islam is mostly based in Mecca.

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2003-09-13 03:51am

Shinova wrote: To the whole religion debate: To rid the world of religion, in my opinion, you'll have to kill it. Literally. Something to the order of taking every child of a religious family, then blowing up all traces of religion, then either locking away or exterminating said family. Then give the children to non-religious family and forbid the very thought of religion.

Pretty soon or after a long time, no religion.

There's an emotional appeal to religion, so I doubt anyone can erase it from everyone's thoughts without resorting to extreme methods.

Wouldn't work. Many people seem to have a need for religion of some sort. I have yet to hear of even one human society that has existed without religious or mystical beliefs. Eradicate traditional religions, and new ones will be created. The only way to permanently destroy religion is to actively indoctrinate each new generation to ignore and suppress whatever spiritual inclinations or impulses they may have. Spirituality is more natural to humans than logic.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-09-13 10:07pm

Crayz9000 wrote:So sue me for replying to a blatant troll here, but GAP, thanks for just proving everyone else's point.

Now fuck off and die, fucker.

Blow me, you little twat. The bottom line is that none of this "important" archaeological shit affects anyone's life.

If someone somehow removed every last one of these crusty old temples from the planet, would your life really change? No.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-09-14 12:47am

And you completely miss the point, not that I expected any better.

You said that religious fanatics just want to kill each other. Not all of them do, so you're applying a universal statement to a particular case.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-14 01:11am

Crayz9000 wrote:And you completely miss the point, not that I expected any better.

You said that religious fanatics just want to kill each other. Not all of them do, so you're applying a universal statement to a particular case.

Crayz, with all due respect, this comes off as a bit of a nitpick. Yes, it's possible for a person to be a religious fanatic without being a violent person. However, in the context of any discussion of Jerusalem, I think we all know which kind of religious fanatic we're talking about.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-09-14 01:18am

Yeah, ok, it's a nitpick. I'm just getting a little fed up with all the religion bashing lately... while there is no quantifiable value for those artifacts, they still hold symbolic value.

I can't say I'm terribly happy with the way religions have turned out a lot of the time, but people do need something to believe in anyway.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-09-14 02:26am

Crayz9000 wrote:I can't say I'm terribly happy with the way religions have turned out a lot of the time, but people do need something to believe in anyway.

That's their problem.

CelesKnight · Post by **CelesKnight** » 2003-09-14 02:52am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote: This of course makes me wonder if the Romans had this intent when the destroyed the main Jewish Temple (can't remember the name off the top of my head) two thousand years ago.

Perhaps. Although, I suspect that looting gold accounted for at least some of the rational behind the destruction of the temple itself.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-09-15 08:14am

Darth Wong wrote:Frankly, the world would be better off if all of these fucking "holy sites" from all religions were destroyed, preferably by meteor strike so no one can blame anyone else. They're just another fucking flashpoint for conflict.

Orbital laser satelites(they exist, ask any local black chopper pilot), could one imitate meteor strikes?

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-09-15 03:20pm

CelesKnight wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote: This of course makes me wonder if the Romans had this intent when the destroyed the main Jewish Temple (can't remember the name off the top of my head) two thousand years ago.
Perhaps. Although, I suspect that looting gold accounted for at least some of the rational behind the destruction of the temple itself.

It would be looting their own gold, the Romans financed the building of the temple. They were just pissed off that a state that was semi-autonomous, with extremely lenient rights and priveleges, decided to revolt against the leading superpower of the time. The Jews deserved what they got, I'm sorry to say.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-09-15 04:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:I mean think about it, the Jews are already down to worshipping a wall, do you really think it would make that big a difference if they were reduced to worshipping an area where stones use to be instead of an area with stacked stones?
Hmmm, good point. The meteor would have to pollute the immediate area with lethal radiation in order to keep them away.

More likely is that there would be a (thriving) anti-radiation suit rental industry in the surrounding area.