Israel spanks Syria!

[Vympel]

According to Syrian residents living around this place, it had been abandoned since the 1970s, and was mainly used as a picnic area.

I haven't seen any indication that Syria has even that small number of Su-27s in it's possession either; then again, Syrian Air Force pictures are relatively hard to come by, but I'd expect to see more than there is. Besides, Syria owes $12 billion to Russia- and Russia insists on cash-in-hand at time of purchase (or some form of trade offset but you've got to pay *something*) unlike the Soviet Union, which threw weaponry around like there was no tommorow. This has confounded Syria's attempts at large scale modernization (S-300PMU and Buk-M1 SAMs). They did get some infantry weapons (new RPGs, Metis-M & Kornet-E ATGMs) but that's about it. There was scuttlebutt about Saudi Arabia and a few other Middle Eastern countries financing the modernization of Syria's armed forces so it could get new weapons from Russia, but nothing came of it. Maybe this little incursion will change that.

[Vympel]

This airstrike strike is highly unlikely to balloon into anything big, a while back when the uprising was still in its first year the IAF actually blew up a Syrian radar station in Lebanon and Syria related and did the same to an Israeli station. Nothing further came from it. Isreal doesn't want a major war, which would finish off its economy, and Syria knows it can't accomplisish anything alone.

What'd they hit the Israeli radar station with? HARMski?

[Sea Skimmer]

But did the Soviets train the Arabs?

Yes, quite heavily. The Syrian and Egyptian militaries where both almost totally dependent on Soviet equipment through 1973, then Egypt moved out of the Soviet orbit, and with that equipment came thousands of Soviet personal to train not just individuals but basically whole military structure.

At one point Soviet pilots where also flying in considerable numbers for the Egyptian air force during the war of attrition, but that largely stopped after the IAF drew them into an ambush and wiped out the better part of a squadron.

[Sea Skimmer]

What'd they hit the Israeli radar station with? HARMski?

Possibly, I dont know what exactly it was. Syria also has a number of other Russia standoff weapons that could have done the job. I don't know if they ever got any really modern ARM's, and the early Soviet weapons where extremely limited in what they could attack. Some has as many settings as HAWK and NIKE, which the requiremet that you preset the missile for one or the other before takeoff.

[Darth Wong]

Attacking territory held by another country, without their permission, is infringing on the rights of the legeitimate government of that country, to control its own territory. Hence the violation...

Without their permission?!

So it's supposed to be like this ...

Israel: *taps Syria on the shoulder* Uh ...

Syria: Oh. Right. Yeah. Go ahead.

Israel: *nods curt thanks and sends out the jets*

You laugh, but isn't that pretty much how it's supposed to work unless Israel declares war on Syria, which they haven't?

Suppose some violent Quebec separatists set up in a campground somewhere in Maine, and Canada's government (assuming it had cruise missiles, which I know it doesn't, but just for the sake of argument) launched a bunch of cruise missiles at it? Are you saying you would have no problem with this?

[Sea Skimmer]

You laugh, but isn't that pretty much how it's supposed to work unless Israel declares war on Syria, which they haven't?

Except they are at war so it doesnt matter.

[Darth Wong]

Except they are at war so it doesnt matter.

Seems like a rather low-intensity war.

[Sea Skimmer]

Seems like a rather low-intensity war.

Both sides kind got tired of it and it kind of trailed off after 1982, but only because both nations where smart enough to see the stalemate and weren't willing to try attrition again.

[Uraniun235]

Are you saying you would have no problem with this?

Well, I wouldn't, since I don't live in Maine.

But, seriously. It depends. If the US Govt. had failed to remove them (which I would expect them to do so) and showed no signs of taking steps to remove them, then yeah, I don't think I would have a problem with it. I certainly wouldn't want "violent separatists" using my "backyard" as a training ground for something I don't want a part in.

[Uraniun235]

Of course, it should be noted that I probably trust Canada a lot more than, say, a Syrian would trust Isreal. Certainly more than I would trust Isreal.

[Ace Pace]

I hope Syria trys somthing just to Isreal will knock the crap out of them.

Isreal needs to reclaim some of its old glory and really stomp someone!

Of course if I was an Isreali I would probly think beg to differ.. but what the heck im nice and safeISH in the USA.

Are you out of your FUCKIN mind??? Israel dosnt need more fodder for braggin rights, and your right, as a Israeli, I know exactly how much we need another war, we don't, FYI, every single kid up to the age of 18 thinks like this: Israel won 3 wars, has nukes > little syria which dosnt know how to shoot.

[Vympel]

Israel has the Golan, which is Syrian territory- until that is given back, the prospects for peace aren't high.

[HemlockGrey]

Of course, Canada and the United States are best friends and longtime allies. But if Canada or Mexico openly housed an Al Queda terrorist cell in their territory and refused to evict them, I would not be very broken up about airstrikes.

Asumming that's what it was, of course.

[Xenophobe3691]

Israel has the Golan, which is Syrian territory- until that is given back, the prospects for peace aren't high.

I don't think they're gonna give the Golan back, it's too much of a strategic advantage for the Syrians. It's not like they didn't use the mountain to shoot down people in the past...

[Vympel]

I don't think they're gonna give the Golan back, it's too much of a strategic advantage for the Syrians. It's not like they didn't use the mountain to shoot down people in the past...

It also gives way too much advantage to the Israelis- difference is that it's Syria's territory, so to get some peace they need to give it back. Or the Syrians might try and take it back one day, given the right conditions (not anytime soon, but in a few decades or so ... this isssue is gonna get resolved, one way or the other).

[TrailerParkJawa]

I don't think they're gonna give the Golan back, it's too much of a strategic advantage for the Syrians. It's not like they didn't use the mountain to shoot down people in the past...

It also gives way too much advantage to the Israelis- difference is that it's Syria's territory, so to get some peace they need to give it back. Or the Syrians might try and take it back one day, given the right conditions (not anytime soon, but in a few decades or so ... this isssue is gonna get resolved, one way or the other).

It is not Syria's anymore. There are people who think the US should give California back to Mexico but that it not going to happen. I think it is the same with the Golan. I dont think the Syrians will be able to take it back, but time will tell.

[Wicked Pilot]

My point was that these guys need to get training from some other source since their own training program obviously is deficient.

It's not just their lack of training, but it's their entire force structure that is fucked up. Their military needs a huge overhaul in their way of thinking if they ever hope to stand toe to toe with a western style power. These overhauls don't happen overnight either. They need to completely revamp their soldiers, NCOs, and officer corps. In most Arab nations, the officers are the families of the political elite, the enlisted are treated like shit, and there is little to no non-commissioned officer corp. Commanders in the field are not encouraged to take initiatives and subordinates never question orders or offer advice. This is not unique to just Arab countries, but to all oppressive regimes; they don't want their military to think. Therefore when it comes time to go to war, they won't; and they will get slaughtered.

[Axis Kast]

The problem with the Golan is its utility as an artillery position - from which either side can easily bombard the other.

You laugh, but isn't that pretty much how it's supposed to work unless Israel declares war on Syria, which they haven't?

You mean aside from the fact that the two nations are at war ... ?

I suppose Israel's been giving Syria the go-ahead on those cross-border rocket attacks for years now, eh?

It takes two to tango, and Israel certainly isn't the only party worthy of technical guilt in this situation.

And do try to keep in mind that this is all an aside from rational analysis. Logic dictates that the strong will always punish the weak assuming they can get away with it.

Suppose some violent Quebec separatists set up in a campground somewhere in Maine, and Canada's government (assuming it had cruise missiles, which I know it doesn't, but just for the sake of argument) launched a bunch of cruise missiles at it? Are you saying you would have no problem with this?

Of course I'd have a problem with this; I'm an American. Regardless of right or wrong, I'd be inclined to support retribution against your nation.

You're also ignoring the fact that nations in the Western world generally work together to alleviate the kinds of issues that arise between, say, I don't know ... Israel and Syria.

[Xenophobe3691]

It also gives way too much advantage to the Israelis- difference is that it's Syria's territory, so to get some peace they need to give it back. Or the Syrians might try and take it back one day, given the right conditions (not anytime soon, but in a few decades or so ... this isssue is gonna get resolved, one way or the other).

Correct. If you ever go to the Golan during the winter after a rainstorm, you can see Damascus over the Horizon. On the same token, however, you can also see Haifa from the exact same point. I doubt Israel is going to give that bit of territory back to Syria, not unless they can get an ironclad guarantee that Syria won't abuse it, and also not unless they either get a guarantee that the people living there will be treated well, or will vote to come back (This does include the arabs living there, go to Majdal Shams or Masade and you'll see how much better they're faring under Israeli rule than Syrian).

[Darth Wong]

You mean aside from the fact that the two nations are at war ... ?

You can play smart-ass all you want, but how little activity must there be before one recognizes that a war has gone dormant? If Israel wants to go back to a full-blown shooting war, that's basically starting a war again, is it not?

Of course I'd have a problem with this; I'm an American. Regardless of right or wrong, I'd be inclined to support retribution against your nation.

Ah yes, I forgot that you don't give a shit whether something is right or wrong

[Axis Kast]

You can play smart-ass all you want, but how little activity must there be before one recognizes that a war has gone dormant? If Israel wants to go back to a full-blown shooting war, that's basically starting a war again, is it not?

You seem to have forgotten the part wherein Syria permitted terrorist organizations operating against Israel to use its soil and resources.

Ah yes, I forgot that you don't give a shit whether something is right or wrong.

Syria is wasting its breath. Whether or not Israel's actions were right or wrong, it will be completely unable to effect anything but diplomatic redress, if at all.

Indeed, my favorite part in all this has been Syria's commentary:

"We are acting with the maximum of self-restraint [... not to do something we'll later regret]."

If somebody attacked Canada for a wrong commited by your government, you'd applaud?

[Sea Skimmer]

You can play smart-ass all you want, but how little activity must there be before one recognizes that a war has gone dormant? If Israel wants to go back to a full-blown shooting war, that's basically starting a war again, is it not?

Feel free to inform the US, South Korea and North Korea that a state of war doesn't exist between them either. That boarders seen far less action since 1953 then Israel and Syria have since 1974.

[Darth Wong]

You can play smart-ass all you want, but how little activity must there be before one recognizes that a war has gone dormant? If Israel wants to go back to a full-blown shooting war, that's basically starting a war again, is it not?

Feel free to inform the US, South Korea and North Korea that a state of war doesn't exist between them either. That boarders seen far less action since 1953 then Israel and Syria have since 1974.

So when people say they don't want war between North and South Korea, they're delusional because war is already ongoing? There is a difference between an extended standoff and an actual shooting war.

[Axis Kast]

So when people say they don't want war between North and South Korea, they're delusional because war is already ongoing? There is a difference between an extended standoff and an actual shooting war.

Shots were traded between North and South Korean gunboats just over a year ago.

An Israeli air strike on an unoccupied shell of a training camp in the Bekaa Valley is hardly Armageddon.

[Sea Skimmer]

So when people say they don't want war between North and South Korea, they're delusional because war is already ongoing? There is a difference between an extended standoff and an actual shooting war.

Shots are exchanged across the DMZ all the time, and periodically there are significant battles such as the fight between northern and Southern gunboats not that long ago that left a number of people dead. The total killed from North Korea, ROK and the US since 1953 is about 1,700. When people say, me included, they don't want war, and it's really that they don't want a new major campaign in that war.

As for Syria vs. Israel, they don't shoot at each other on the Golan, but in Lebanon there has been a long string of clashes since the valley Bekaa, such as the mentioned attacks on each other's radar stations. Looks like the shooting war's alive to me. Its just simmering, not dead.