Hamas founder killed in Israeli airstrike

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-22 05:41pm

0.1 wrote: The basic point is until enough people on both sides are tired of killing each other, they won't stop, no amount of outside pressure will ever make a difference.

Yeah, I'm sure that Israel wouldn't give a shit if the US told them to either make peace, or face the withdraw of ALL US military aid. They would sign a peace treaty so fast it would make your head spin.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-03-22 05:45pm

The Kernel wrote:
0.1 wrote: The basic point is until enough people on both sides are tired of killing each other, they won't stop, no amount of outside pressure will ever make a difference.
Yeah, I'm sure that Israel wouldn't give a shit if the US told them to either make peace, or face the withdraw of ALL US military aid. They would sign a peace treaty so fast it would make your head spin.

Honestly, then it's simply be militants on militants.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-22 05:51pm

Stormbringer wrote: Honestly, then it's simply be militants on militants.

You have to admit though that the threat of withdrawing US support for Israel both militarily and in the UN would be enough to convince them to get to the bargaining table. The Occupied Territories don't mean nearly as much to Israel as US support, and we could force them to hammer out an agreement, and I would guess that after that is done a year or so of UN peacekeepers would be enough to stabilize the situation.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-03-22 05:59pm

The Kernel wrote:
0.1 wrote: The basic point is until enough people on both sides are tired of killing each other, they won't stop, no amount of outside pressure will ever make a difference.
Yeah, I'm sure that Israel wouldn't give a shit if the US told them to either make peace, or face the withdraw of ALL US military aid. They would sign a peace treaty so fast it would make your head spin.

Unfortunatly no president has the guts or the inclination to do that.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-03-22 06:26pm

The Kernel wrote: Yeah, I'm sure that Israel wouldn't give a shit if the US told them to either make peace, or face the withdraw of ALL US military aid. They would sign a peace treaty so fast it would make your head spin.

Or more likely they'd see no reason to ever listen to the rest of the world ever again and absolutely refuse to trust a single word the Palestinians place on paper. Then everyone else's head would spin at how fast helicopter launched Hellfire's and armored infantry raids are simply replaced by cheep massed artillery barrages onto whatever area is suspected on an offense.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-22 06:30pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
The Kernel wrote: Yeah, I'm sure that Israel wouldn't give a shit if the US told them to either make peace, or face the withdraw of ALL US military aid. They would sign a peace treaty so fast it would make your head spin.
Or more likely they'd see no reason to ever listen to the rest of the world ever again and absolutely refuse to trust a single word the Palestinians place on paper. Then everyone else's head would spin at how fast helicopter launched Hellfire's and armored infantry raids are simply replaced by cheep massed artillery barrages onto whatever area is suspected on an offense.

You think that Israel really has the balls to face the entire Arab world without US assistance? The threat alone would be sufficient since they would be facing the possibility of massive loss of life at best, and total destruction at worst.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-03-22 06:36pm

The Kernel wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
The Kernel wrote: Yeah, I'm sure that Israel wouldn't give a shit if the US told them to either make peace, or face the withdraw of ALL US military aid. They would sign a peace treaty so fast it would make your head spin.
Or more likely they'd see no reason to ever listen to the rest of the world ever again and absolutely refuse to trust a single word the Palestinians place on paper. Then everyone else's head would spin at how fast helicopter launched Hellfire's and armored infantry raids are simply replaced by cheep massed artillery barrages onto whatever area is suspected on an offense.
You think that Israel really has the balls to face the entire Arab world without US assistance? The threat alone would be sufficient since they would be facing the possibility of massive loss of life at best, and total destruction at worst.

I think this is more a fundamental mindset rather than a rational "Hmm, if we do that we'd be committing suicide" decision. Remember that this whole conflict is basically bollocks in the end and I don't ever see it being resolved. Israel and the Pals will fight even if the US and rest of the world pulled out of supporting them.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-03-22 06:42pm

We need a few Chrono Legionnaires to deal with shits like this guy. He really ought to die, but you can't kill him for fear of making him a martyr.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-22 06:49pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Or more likely they'd see no reason to ever listen to the rest of the world ever again and absolutely refuse to trust a single word the Palestinians place on paper. Then everyone else's head would spin at how fast helicopter launched Hellfire's and armored infantry raids are simply replaced by cheep massed artillery barrages onto whatever area is suspected on an offense.

Then they get an embargo slapped on them and Israel’s economy goes belly up at which point any Israeli of Jewish decent with any sense decides it is a good idea to pick up that no questions asked German citizenship waiting for them.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-03-22 07:05pm

The Kernel wrote:
You think that Israel really has the balls to face the entire Arab world without US assistance? The threat alone would be sufficient since they would be facing the possibility of massive loss of life at best, and total destruction at worst.

Hardly. The only Arab nation which can actually threaten them is Egypt, thanks in large part to US aid. Egypt isn't going to go to war over the Palestinians, there very happy to be rid of the problem and attakcing would only mean they once more become a part of it.

And of course there's always the Isreali nuclear option to keep them away.

Sebastin · Post by **Sebastin** » 2004-03-22 07:14pm

TheDarkling wrote: Then they get an embargo slapped on them and Israel?s economy goes belly up at which point any Israeli of Jewish decent with any sense decides it is a good idea to pick up that no questions asked German citizenship waiting for them.

Those have apparantly become very popular in recent times. I read somewhere that the number of applicants trippled every year since this intifada began. Actual immigrations are rising comparativly slowly however, it seems a lot of israelis are getting the german citizenship as a kind of safety net right now.

The Albino Raven · Post by **The Albino Raven** » 2004-03-22 07:29pm

PrinceofLowLight wrote:Collateral damage means that the bad is a by-product of something good (dead terrorist). Targetting innocents has no upside. It's only a teensy weensy bit less evil, but there is a difference.

Wrong, it strikes fear into the friends of the innocents, which for the purposes of terror is an upside.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-22 07:35pm

The Kernel wrote:
0.1 wrote: The basic point is until enough people on both sides are tired of killing each other, they won't stop, no amount of outside pressure will ever make a difference.
Yeah, I'm sure that Israel wouldn't give a shit if the US told them to either make peace, or face the withdraw of ALL US military aid. They would sign a peace treaty so fast it would make your head spin.

Israel has a GDP of over 100bn a year and only gets around 3bn a year from the U.S., they would have to economize a bit but they could certainly survive without us. They don't particularly need us.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-22 08:32pm

Oh, BTW, this guy looks a lot like Saruman. Can't be a coincidence.

0.1 · Post by **0.1** » 2004-03-22 09:25pm

Kernel,

don't be an idiot, how is the U.S. supposed to take back the ton of military hardware they've already sent? What are they going to do, drive over a few dozen container ships and demand that the Israelis load up all their Apaches, F-15s, Abrams and ship it back?

As for the Israelis standing up to the rest of the Arab world. Trying reading up on some history. Even during the best of times, the Arabs couldn't take down the Israelis, and the amount of support that the Arabs got in the late 60s/early 70s from the Soviet Union far outstripped what the Americans gave to Israel. And they still lost. You realized that at one point the Soviets were flying CAP over Egypt itself in an attempt to ward off the Israeli air force so that the Egyptians can build up sufficient mass for the 1973 war. The reasons that the Russians were flying CAP wasn't that they were necessarily better pilots, but the fact that they hoped the Israelis would not go out of the way to confront a superpower, and that they knew that Americans would try to reign them in. As others have pointed out, take away support, and the U.S. has no leverage at all. Then you have a wild card on the able with nukes.

Now, one part I like about withdrawing U.S. aid is the fact that it will likely isolate the Israelis completely. We all know the Europeans don't care much for Israel, and I sincerely doubt it's because of any obligation they feel toward the Arabs, so no support there.

Over time the Israelis may get desparate, and those types of people will do things that are unorthodox. It might actually lead to more bloodshed. And that's exactly what that part of the world needs despite what everyone else has said. People say: "oh, how terrible that suicide bombing has killed the innocent, oh, how terrible that collateral damage killed so many." I say that they haven't killed nearly enough. They need real bloodshed, I don't mean a mere few thousand people getting whacked over the course of years. That's not even a papercut. By bloodshed, I means hundreds of thousands dead in the span of months.

After a while, either all the combatants will be dead or both sides will come to their senses and work out something. Either way, the result will be the same, they'll have peace of some type at the end.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-22 09:51pm

Joe wrote:Israel has a GDP of over 100bn a year and only gets around 3bn a year from the U.S., they would have to economize a bit but they could certainly survive without us. They don't particularly need us.

You must be joking. The US GDP in 2003 was well over 10 trillion dollars. By your logic (in which 3% of GDP is no big deal), the US would be able to easily withstand a 300 billion dollar hit to its finances.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-22 10:37pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Joe wrote:Israel has a GDP of over 100bn a year and only gets around 3bn a year from the U.S., they would have to economize a bit but they could certainly survive without us. They don't particularly need us.
You must be joking. The US GDP in 2003 was well over 10 trillion dollars. By your logic (in which 3% of GDP is no big deal), the US would be able to easily withstand a 300 billion dollar hit to its finances.

It would be tough but certainly not beyond adjustment after a few years. The point is that Israel would not be significantly less able to meet its military spending needs if the U.S. pulled all aid tomorrow (plus there's the fact that Israel receives lots of donations from Jews abroad, which would probably go up substantially in such an event).

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-22 10:48pm

Joe wrote: It would be tough but certainly not beyond adjustment after a few years. The point is that Israel would not be significantly less able to meet its military spending needs if the U.S. pulled all aid tomorrow (plus there's the fact that Israel receives lots of donations from Jews abroad, which would probably go up substantially in such an event).

And what about all the American companies (like Intel who maintains a high-tech facility with over 3500 jobs) that would pull out at the first sign of something like this? You think THAT might also have a hit on their GDP?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-22 10:49pm

More to the point, who cares whether they can survive on their own? At least the US would no longer be held culpable for Israel's activities.

The Albino Raven · Post by **The Albino Raven** » 2004-03-22 11:19pm

It would be tough but certainly not beyond adjustment after a few years. The point is that Israel would not be significantly less able to meet its military spending needs if the U.S. pulled all aid tomorrow (plus there's the fact that Israel receives lots of donations from Jews abroad, which would probably go up substantially in such an event).

America might be able to adjust, but being the richest nation in the world, we have more of a cushion than a nation constantly under assault.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-22 11:26pm

The Kernel wrote:
Joe wrote: It would be tough but certainly not beyond adjustment after a few years. The point is that Israel would not be significantly less able to meet its military spending needs if the U.S. pulled all aid tomorrow (plus there's the fact that Israel receives lots of donations from Jews abroad, which would probably go up substantially in such an event).
And what about all the American companies (like Intel who maintains a high-tech facility with over 3500 jobs) that would pull out at the first sign of something like this? You think THAT might also have a hit on their GDP?

Why would they necessarily pull out? Would Israel suddenly turn into a bad place to do business?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-22 11:27pm

The Albino Raven wrote:
It would be tough but certainly not beyond adjustment after a few years. The point is that Israel would not be significantly less able to meet its military spending needs if the U.S. pulled all aid tomorrow (plus there's the fact that Israel receives lots of donations from Jews abroad, which would probably go up substantially in such an event).
America might be able to adjust, but being the richest nation in the world, we have more of a cushion than a nation constantly under assault.

Point, but one thing that you can't take away from the Israelis no matter what you think of them is that they aren't gonna buckle under that easily.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-22 11:28pm

Darth Wong wrote:More to the point, who cares whether they can survive on their own? At least the US would no longer be held culpable for Israel's activities.

You'll get no objections from me on that, I for one am tired of bribing Israel and Egypt to pretend not to hate each other.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-22 11:29pm

Joe wrote: Why would they necessarily pull out? Would Israel suddenly turn into a bad place to do business?

A potential war zone with no US around to keep the peace isn't the sort of stability most of these companies want.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-22 11:43pm

The Kernel wrote:
Joe wrote: Why would they necessarily pull out? Would Israel suddenly turn into a bad place to do business?
A potential war zone with no US around to keep the peace isn't the sort of stability most of these companies want.

I was unaware of our current presence in said potential war zone.