What does the future hold for the US?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-06-03 03:35am

His entire thesis of the US being doomed since we're chosing military action is not really a great well thought out thing. The Soviet Union collapsed because it was by the 1970s only capable of matching the
United States in total output by devoting the entire economy to a
certain sector. They achieved their massive buildup in the 1970s by
ignoring general consumer goods, and just couldn't keep it up in
the 1980s when Reagan came along and challenged them to a
building race which we won easily, as we could produce/buy for
every ten M-1 Abrams, one shitload of automobiles, computers,
VCRs, TVs, all those goody consumer goods, while the USSR could
only buy at best ten T-80s and a nice cardboard cutout to give to it's
citizens with the words "TV to be delivered by 1995, Comrade! Hail
Lenin!"

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-06-03 04:22am

Out of curiosity guys, do you consider 3.5% total GDP spending on
defense to be "the military option"?

Back in 1953, we were spending 14.2% of our GDP on the military. If
anything else, our reliance on military action has decreased over time.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-06-03 04:29am

It's not the percentage of spending, it's the attitude. Besides, 3.5% may be the total amount of money earmarked for the DoD, but when you throw in the invasion and occupation costs of Afghanistan and Iraq, it looks a lot closer to that 1953 figure.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-06-03 04:47am

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:It's not the percentage of spending, it's the attitude. Besides, 3.5% may be the total amount of money earmarked for the DoD, but when you throw in the invasion and occupation costs of Afghanistan and Iraq, it looks a lot closer to that 1953 figure.

How much are we spending on Afghanistan and Iraq? 14% of GDP is over one trillion dollars!

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-06-03 05:33am

phongn wrote: How much are we spending on Afghanistan and Iraq? 14% of GDP is over one trillion dollars!

Bah! That's nothing! In the 1930s, the Japanese spent 2/3rds of their
GDP on the military!

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-06-03 05:36am

MKSheppard wrote:
phongn wrote: How much are we spending on Afghanistan and Iraq? 14% of GDP is over one trillion dollars!
Bah! That's nothing! In the 1930s, the Japanese spent 2/3rds of their
GDP on the military!

And pissed it away like last nights beer....

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-06-03 11:13am

So our percentage defense spending has decreased by 10% of the GDP since 1953... But we're fighting in Iraq! We're DOOOOMED!

Sooner or later China and the EU are gonna get their shit together, and the US won't be the only country around capable of doing anything. You know what? Good. Maybe next time a Milosevic turns up, we'll get to stay home.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-06-03 11:15am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:So our percentage defense spending has decreased by 10% of the GDP since 1953... But we're fighting in Iraq! We're DOOOOMED!

Sooner or later China and the EU are gonna get their shit together, and the US won't be the only country around capable of doing anything. You know what? Good. Maybe next time a Milosevic turns up, we'll get to stay home.

I sincerely hope that happens. It's about time this Rapid Reaction Force came into being so tinpot dictators like Milosevic can be smacked down in the future without causing international fuss.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-06-03 12:01pm

I sincerely hope that happens. It's about time this Rapid Reaction Force came into being so tinpot dictators like Milosevic can be smacked down in the future without causing international fuss.

You have to be willing to spend real money on it first.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-06-03 07:23pm

Wouldn't it be nice to see a headline that goes something like...

"DICTATOR GOES APESHIT. EUROPE HANDLES IT. USA GIVES THUMBS UP AND GOES BACK TO BED."

Then we can team up and fuck over the Chinese, because you'd have to be insane to trust those college student murdering pricks. Just wait until their own rising fortunes propel them further onto the international stage, and people outside their borders start getting a bigger dose of their fun.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-06-04 04:23am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:Wouldn't it be nice to see a headline that goes something like...

"DICTATOR GOES APESHIT. EUROPE HANDLES IT. USA GIVES THUMBS UP AND GOES BACK TO BED."

Then we can team up and fuck over the Chinese, because you'd have to be insane to trust those college student murdering pricks. Just wait until their own rising fortunes propel them further onto the international stage, and people outside their borders start getting a bigger dose of their fun.

I don't see at least Germany going against China.
Recently, the Chancellor said he supports China's One-China-Policy.
In the face of potential earnings, human rights take a backseat...

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-06-04 07:57am

Dahak wrote: I don't see at least Germany going against China.
Recently, the Chancellor said he supports China's One-China-Policy.
In the face of potential earnings, human rights take a backseat...

That is because at the moment both China and the EU have a common opponent in the US, once China get big enough to trample on people like the US does then the EU will suddenly decide that being friends with the US is a better deal (of course by that point the EU will be more of an equal to the US and thus more likely to get a hearing in Washington).

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-06-04 08:29am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:Wouldn't it be nice to see a headline that goes something like...

"DICTATOR GOES APESHIT. EUROPE HANDLES IT. USA GIVES THUMBS UP AND GOES BACK TO BED."

Then we can team up and fuck over the Chinese, because you'd have to be insane to trust those college student murdering pricks. Just wait until their own rising fortunes propel them further onto the international stage, and people outside their borders start getting a bigger dose of their fun.

Ultimately it will be India that offset's China.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-06-04 12:55pm

I base my view of the long-term future on three things:

1 - The US might have a boorish government, depending on who's in power, but it's still a Western democracy.

2 - China is a downright brutal police state that makes dissenters disappear.

3 - Europeans aren't stupid, and don't really like police states.

Eventually all this trans-Atlantic dick waving will blow over, and each side will see that the other is much preferable to the alternative.