Cosby Has Harsh Words for Black Community

[Wicked Pilot]

In stark contrast to rock and pop where the lyrics invariably speak of female empowerment and where partially clothed women never appear in videos

At least rock songs sound cool.

[Galvatron]

Perhaps rock music was the cause of this...

Got it bad, got it bad, got it bad, I'm hot for teacher!

[Master of Ossus]

Well i like rap. Go figure. In all honesty i think some of this is just lashing out at a more successful branch of Black culture. All this hatred towards rap is senseless, IMO. It isnt Puff Daddy's fault that Blacks in America had to constuct our own culture after being dragged over here and having our native culture obliterated.

No, but he highlights problems in society, some of them exacerbated by blacks, that have led to many of the social problems we have today.

I'm personally glad to see a seperate culture for Blacks, and i can see some serious flaws in it yes, but it's better than the alternitive, which is to mindlessly assimilate until we walk and talk and act like the drones our ancesstors were bred to become.

Do you think that Asian Americans mindlessly assimilated themselves into white culture? Moreover, why is it important for blacks to have a separate culture, and is this fear not shared by whites from different cultures here (ie. Eastern Europeans vs. Irish)?

And Bill Cosby isnt the best 'avatar' for leading the new 'enlightened' Black people (the ones who shun rap and assimillate quietly and conveniently) since he couldnt find any less assholish way to adress his stance than to scream it out in front of a billion video cameras knowing how it would be seen by the general public. Brilliant.

Who cares where he said it? The point is that Cosby is a guy who began as a clone of the other black comedians of his era. He went from that to being almost the paragon of respectability within the United States. You DON'T see Cosby as being the perfect symbol of this movement?

Look, maybe you're right (probably), but to me, i find some of what he said obnoxiously self-righteous, and especially the very public way he said it extremely stupid.

1. What specific parts of what he said were "self-righteous?"
2. What's wrong with expressing one's views in a public manner? Why does that make it stupid, if he's TRYING to get his message out?

Yeah, people throw the term 'Uncle Tom' around, but it doenst exactly mean a 'house nigger', as some have said; it means a Black person embarised that he's Black who tries to critisize everything other Blacks do and act like he's not Black, which i think fits Cosby prety well, IMO. I might be wrong about him, but i doubt it.

In other words, you reject the right of black individuals to live outside of "black culture," and use a derogatory term laced with a legacy of slavery and racism for individuals who even SEEM to fit the mold (and use a definition wholly separate from the original one, BTW).

[Plekhanov]

Very true, but how many rock videos can you point to where there are literally dozens of scantily clad women on screen at the same time? This is one of the defining feature of a rap video. The men have to be vastly outnumbered by the women so that each guy has at the very least two women around him at all times.

I couldn’t give you any specific examples of a rock/pop video with dozens of scantily clad women on screen as I do my best to avoid that kind of music but it does seem to me that most pop videos I see have large numbers of scantily clad women in them often dancing in synch with the singer.

Do pop songs as frequently refer to women as bitches and hos?

Not as far as I’m aware no

I've noticed that if there's a semi-naked woman in a rock or pop video she's either A: the singer, or B: the singer's girlfriend.

That just isn’t true the dancers in Robbie Williams, Kylie, Britney… videos have no significant role to play and are just eye candy

And in practically all cases the song is about love in some form or another, not exploitation of women.

I must confess that I try to avoid that kind of music so I couldn’t really comment upon the lyrics but the videos definitely sexually objectify women (and mens) bodies

There's a difference between a scantily clad woman walking across the screen in a typical pop music video and a rap "ho" shaking her booty a few inches from the camera in a typical rap video.

I agree that rap videos are often much worse for this kind of thing but woman do a good deal of shaking in pop videos as well

I find the way women are depicted in rap music and the sexual objectification of women in rap videos objectionable it’s just that I think it’s unfair to single out rap videos for attention when they are merely the worst offenders in what is a general trend. I remember videos by White Snake and Motley Crue from the 80s they had bikini clad women all over them and the lyrics as far as I can recall were also far from pc, rap didn’t start this trend nor is it the only practitioner even if it is the worst.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It isnt Puff Daddy's fault that Blacks in America had to constuct our own culture after being dragged over here and having our native culture obliterated.

And you had your own culture, black slaves had a culture of religious brotherhood, and they INTEGRATED with society when they were freed to the best of their ability. After segregation went the day of Stellars Sea Cow, they INTEGRATED. They ere successful and respectable members of society at large. They became businessmen, teachers and lawyers.

I'm personally glad to see a seperate culture for Blacks, and i can see some serious flaws in it yes, but it's better than the alternitive, which is to mindlessly assimilate until we walk and talk and act like the drones our ancesstors were bred to become.

WOW, for a liberal you sure seem to put people in large groups. How are white people drones? WHy cant you have the same culture, or at least a few of the same drives and values? Why do you have to have a subculture that values crime, murder, intolerance, hatred, and drug use?

And Bill Cosby isnt the best 'avatar' for leading the new 'enlightened' Black people (the ones who shun rap and assimillate quietly and conveniently) since he couldnt find any less assholish way to adress his stance than to scream it out in front of a billion video cameras knowing how it would be seen by the general public. Brilliant.

What is so bad about assimilation? What is so bad about being an individual? WHY THE FUCK DO YOU SUBSCRIBE TO GROUPTHINK, WHICH IS ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS THING A SOCIETY CAN SUBSCRIBE TO!!??

Cosby was right on the money with what he said. Black people, like it or not, have slpiped into a culture that alues the very things that society annot function upon. Illiteracy and crime. They are dooming themselves to being welfare junkies and drug dealers.

Look, maybe you're right (probably), but to me, i find some of what he said obnoxiously self-righteous, and especially the very public way he said it extremely stupid.

SO because he used his abilities as a public speaker to make a valid point, he is stupid? Fuck you.

Yeah, people throw the term 'Uncle Tom' around, but it doenst exactly mean a 'house nigger', as some have said; it means a Black person embarised that he's Black who tries to critisize everything other Blacks do and act like he's not Black, which i think fits Cosby prety well, IMO. I might be wrong about him, but i doubt it.

Cosby is not embarrassed to be black, he is proud of it, however he is ashamed of what "black culture" has become. And he rightfully should be. WHy the fuck do black people have to fit into your convenient group think mould? Oh wait, so they can keep playing victim when people dont hire them because they *gasp* cant read.

It seems to me that you are playing into the fatalistic victim mentallity rather well.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Just to clarify, i was refering to no Chinese or Native Americans as drones, it was a (admitedly stupid) way to describe the slave trade once practiced in America.

I didnt mean to imply otherwise, and i'm sorry if it was misunderstood.

As an aside, after thinking about it, you have a good point about some branches of Black culture being detrimental. But all in all, i think for many, for me at least, it gives a person something they can hold on to and say it's 'theirs'. The us vs. them mentality sprang out of this, and unfortunately so did the fatalistic natur eof some of the more rescent generations of Black people, who see their futures as a dead end. But the need for some kind of community seperate from what the masses say is our 'culture'.

It's difficult to differenciate now between the newer, fatalistic subsect and the original feeling of community. I guess, in some ways they eventually merged.

But mainly i wanted to appologize for the misunderstanding. I'm sorry if what i said was taken to mean something offensive to you all, i didnt inend to. I was actually refering to the generations of Blacks who had given up on any kind of individual culture or personality, from generations passed, before the civil rights movment had given Blacks a chance to establish their own culture. Of course it has admitedly degraded over the years into something more of a charicature of the original, the need for community still exists, i think.

[18-Till-I-Die]

A little more clarification, i wasnt refering to any other people as drones, not Whites, not asians, not hispanics, so on. I am sorry, i worded it badly.

[kojikun]

Shut up stupid. You're the problem, making it seem like you can "act black", as if theres a certain way that only black people act. Moron. YOU CAN'T ACT BLACK OR WHITE. HOW YOU ACT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COLOUR OF YOUR FUCKING SKIN.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Shut up stupid. You're the problem, making it seem like you can "act black", as if theres a certain way that only black people act. Moron. YOU CAN'T ACT BLACK OR WHITE. HOW YOU ACT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COLOUR OF YOUR FUCKING SKIN.

I dont mean anything like that, Kojikun. I said i understand why Blacks felt they needed a seperate culture , even if it has degraded over time into what it is now.

[Plekhanov]

It isnt Puff Daddy's fault that Blacks in America had to constuct our own culture after being dragged over here and having our native culture obliterated.

And you had your own culture, black slaves had a culture of religious brotherhood,

There is a good deal of debate as to the extent to which independent slave culture/s existed.

and they INTEGRATED with society when they were freed to the best of their ability.

Sadly in many parts of America “their ability” to integrate was sadly limited by white societies fear and loathing of blacks so this integration you speak of was limited, very limited in many places in fact because you are talking about the years of segregation here.

After segregation went the day of Stellars Sea Cow, they INTEGRATED. They ere successful and respectable members of society at large. They became businessmen, teachers and lawyers.

So when exactly did blacks withdraw from the oh so smooth process of integrating you are implying? Are you actually suggesting that everything was going just fine till rap came along? Because it sounds like you are.

I'm personally glad to see a seperate culture for Blacks, and i can see some serious flaws in it yes, but it's better than the alternitive, which is to mindlessly assimilate until we walk and talk and act like the drones our ancesstors were bred to become.

WOW, for a liberal you sure seem to put people in large groups. How are white people drones? WHy cant you have the same culture, or at least a few of the same drives and values? Why do you have to have a subculture that values crime, murder, intolerance, hatred, and drug use?

First of all I would question the extent to which a population as large, living in such varied environments, as stratified and with so many immigrant cultures still being absorbed as the USA’s can ever have a single culture. It’s not as if rap/hip-hop culture or what ever you want to call it is the only subculture within the US. It is in fact one of many subcultures including the one you belong to, which cumulatively make up “American culture”

Far from being some aberrant subculture you can argue that many of the values espoused by “Bling Bling” culture are simply the drives and values of American/capitalist society at large simply with the moral pretences stripped away. By this I mean the drive to accumulate wealth and not giving a shit about who gets stepped on in the process. Mainstream American business habitually evades taxes and flouts safety, environmental and regulatory legislation in the course of their business just as “ganstas” habitually break the law as they do business. If you look at things from a detached viewpoint “rap” and business culture don’t seem all that dissimilar.

[kojikun]

"I dont mean anything like that, Kojikun."

"it means a Black person embarised that he's Black who tries to critisize everything other Blacks do and act like he's not Black"

YOU FAIL, MORON. CONCESSION ACCEPTED.

[Alyrium Denryle]

So when exactly did blacks withdraw from the oh so smooth process of integrating you are implying? Are you actually suggesting that everything was going just fine till rap came along? Because it sounds like you are.

Lets take a look.. the civil rights movement was specifically about the african american community fighting for the right to integrate with the rest of society. They fought tooth and nail for the right to vote, and go to good schools. Andthey relished these rights until recently.

The parents and grandparants of the current generation fought for these rights. Now we look at the current generation...Squandering them. For some reason, a subculture that abhors everything the civil rights movement fought for has arrisen. I dont lay blame on rap necessarily, but rather loathe and despise said subculture regardless of its cause

First of all I would question the extent to which a population as large, living in such varied environments, as stratified and with so many immigrant cultures still being absorbed as the USA’s can ever have a single culture.

I refer more to broad cultural norms like... you know... Valuing education, law, hygene, and a didinct lack of rampant sexism.

It’s not as if rap/hip-hop culture or what ever you want to call it is the only subculture within the US. It is in fact one of many subcultures including the one you belong to, which cumulatively make up “American culture”

Even subcultures have only minor differences with the larger culture. I wouldnt even describe "black clture" as a subculture, like the "punk" culture of the 80's, it is a counter culture. COmppletely opposed to the above norms of law, education, hygene etc etc.

lets not get off track by attacking capitalism.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I've noticed that if there's a semi-naked woman in a rock or pop video she's either A: the singer, or B: the singer's girlfriend.

That just isn’t true the dancers in Robbie Williams, Kylie, Britney… videos have no significant role to play and are just eye candy

Tell me one time when Britney or Robbie refer to or implicate said dancers as 'bitches and hos' like rap idiots do.

And in practically all cases the song is about love in some form or another, not exploitation of women.

I must confess that I try to avoid that kind of music so I couldn’t really comment upon the lyrics but the videos definitely sexually objectify women (and mens) bodies

Then I have no problem. 1: I avoid pop as well, and 2: read my highlight of your quote.

[kojikun]

I protested the objectification of sex toys!

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I protested the objectification of sex toys!

ROFLMAO!!! </Shameless Taking of the Thread Hijack Bait>

[Howedar]

I see 18-years-till-I'm-mature continues in his quest to instill racism wherever he can.

I also see that he's failed to realize that we can, you know, go back and read his posts.

[kojikun]

When Howedar and I agree, you know someone's a fucking moron and is very wrong. 18, go stick your head in an oven.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

When Howedar and I agree, you know someone's a fucking moron and is very wrong. 18, go stick your head in an oven.

And what of the odd circumstance of Howedar, you, and I agreeing?

[kojikun]

I THINK .. uhm.. I don't know, really.

[Aeolus]

Shut up stupid. You're the problem, making it seem like you can "act black", as if theres a certain way that only black people act. Moron. YOU CAN'T ACT BLACK OR WHITE. HOW YOU ACT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COLOUR OF YOUR FUCKING SKIN.

I dont mean anything like that, Kojikun. I said i understand why Blacks felt they needed a seperate culture , even if it has degraded over time into what it is now.

I understand what you are saying, but why do blacks need a seperate culture? Wasn't they main point of the civil rights movement that they should be allowed to participate in the larger culture freely? Wouldn't a single tolerant culture be preferable to several antagonistic cultures?

[The Yosemite Bear]

don't get me started....

Ireland: "I first withdrew my Pistol and then withdrew my Rapier, I said "Stand and Deliver or the Devil he may take ye!"- 200+ years ago
or
"I learned of my heroes, and I wanted the same. So now I'm a part of this Patriot game." -1950's


US 1930's:
"Well He took to the hills and Timbers, to live a life of shame, every crime in Oaklahoma, was added to his name. Well folks tell the story of a man who came begging for a meal, and underneath his napkin, left a thousand dollar bill. And It was christmas morning in the town of Sawnee, they found a whole car load of croceries, and a letter that did say. "You say I am an Outlaw, you say I am a theif, well here's a christmas dinner for the families on relief. In this world I've traveled I've seen all kinds of men, some will rob you with a sixgun, some with a fountain pen. Well I've never seen an outlaw, rob a family from their home."

Germany Early 1930's:
"And that ghastly fire in soho, seven children at a go, in the crowd stands mack the knife, but isn't asked and doesn't know.
And that street bride they call "missus"
barly fifteen years of age
violated in her slumber
mackie how much did you charge."

I would say that the glorification of criminals extends before and beyond rap....

[The_Nice_Guy]

Perhaps rock music was the cause of this...

Got it bad, got it bad, got it bad, I'm hot for teacher!

Shades of the Police's "Don't Stand So Close To Me"!

TWG

[18-Till-I-Die]

"I dont mean anything like that, Kojikun."

"it means a Black person embarised that he's Black who tries to critisize everything other Blacks do and act like he's not Black"

Alright, i forgot i wrote that, and you have a point. I shouldnt have said 'act' Black.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Shut up stupid. You're the problem, making it seem like you can "act black", as if theres a certain way that only black people act. Moron. YOU CAN'T ACT BLACK OR WHITE. HOW YOU ACT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COLOUR OF YOUR FUCKING SKIN.

I dont mean anything like that, Kojikun. I said i understand why Blacks felt they needed a seperate culture , even if it has degraded over time into what it is now.

I understand what you are saying, but why do blacks need a seperate culture? Wasn't they main point of the civil rights movement that they should be allowed to participate in the larger culture freely? Wouldn't a single tolerant culture be preferable to several antagonistic cultures?

Yes, but that shouldnt exclude Blacks from having their own community too, as well as their adopted ones. Imegrants keep their own culture and community, and still integrate with others' communities and culture freely. But the problem with current Black culture is that it has become this antagonistic 'vs' mentality over time, and with that comes the violence, and other flaws. THAT is the problem that needs to be adressed, but i wouldnt know where to begin.

[Aeolus]

I dont mean anything like that, Kojikun. I said i understand why Blacks felt they needed a seperate culture , even if it has degraded over time into what it is now.

I understand what you are saying, but why do blacks need a seperate culture? Wasn't they main point of the civil rights movement that they should be allowed to participate in the larger culture freely? Wouldn't a single tolerant culture be preferable to several antagonistic cultures?

Yes, but that shouldnt exclude Blacks from having their own community too, as well as their adopted ones. Imegrants keep their own culture and community, and still integrate with others' communities and culture freely. But the problem with current Black culture is that it has become this antagonistic 'vs' mentality over time, and with that comes the violence, and other flaws. THAT is the problem that needs to be adressed, but i wouldnt know where to begin.

Immigrants keep there culture for maybe 2 generations then the assimilate...sure they keep saint pattys day, and spagetti because American culture absorbs parts of imigrant cultures.