Is it harder for young people to get established today?

[Darth Wong]

I finished school, left home, and became financially independent a few days after my 22nd birthday, yet I'm not 'established' because I'm single. What kind of BS is that?

Fatherhood is a huge, expensive, life-changing thing that you haven't done yet.

So... those who are unable to reproduce will forever be minors or second-class citizens?

They will not have made the sacrifices to be considered in the same class as a decent parent.

A better way to phrase it might be saying one is financially capable of supporting a spouse and offspring, even if one does not actually do so.

Having the money is only a small part of the sacrifice you must make in order to have children. Being a serious parent (by which I mean actually parenting a child, not just biologically conceiving one) is not a mere financial investment.

[jegs2]

It is my job to help qualified young people who are attempting to get established. Learn more here.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I can attest to this personally. Between the cost of paying my student loans and the bureaucratic horseshit I've been fighting trying to get my teaching certification, I'm 23 and still stuck at home. And because I'm working a shit job and don't have my own place, my romantic prospects are limited (it's extremely embarassing to even talk about with new people). It's been slowly making me more and more miserable.

Don't feel miserable. There's lots of people like you and me who are stuck at home with the parents until the economy recovers.

In fact, I'm in a very similar situation, but to top it off I'm married. It's much more humiliating for me to admit to living at home to someone who knows that I am married because there is always that look of judgement in their eyes.

My peers know what it's like to only have a string of ineffectual part-time jobs, but most of them aren't married, so they have this attitude that I am irresponsible because I don't have my own place. Well, the cost of paying for the wedding (which I did, with only about $1,000 from the in-laws and about twice that from my parents) plus all of the travelling necessary to plan it (including renting a car for whole weeks at a time at least once a month, plane flights and attending bridal expos, etc.) was more than my $27,000 savings at the time, wiped me out and put me into debt, adding another layer of financial hardship over my student loan payments. My point: getting married is expensive--if I had known how much it was I would have gotten hitched in Vegas or something.

Currently my wife and I make enough to rent a shitty little studio or one-bedroom in Northern OC's flowering Narcotics District. But then there's the fact that we need to pay debts and pay car payments (you can't get to any job in OC without a car), etc., etc....

It's like the system was designed to trick us into thinking that we could make it with an education just so it could fuck us over.

[Alan Bolte]

Honestly sir, that you managed to keep it in the low tens of thousands is an indication of restraint in comparison to many, but you say that you didn't realize going into it how muc hit would cost. I mean no dierespect, but how could you possibly not know about the expense?! Furthermore, how could you allow yourself to slip into debt on such a one-time expense when there must have been some point at which you realized you were signing too many thousand-dollar checks, at which point you could conceed that this was beyond your means, and cut your losses? Did the ceremony mean that much to you? I must admit, however, that my incredulity stems in part from my disinterest in ceremony to begin with.

And I think those that are irritated by being listed as 'not established' because they have no children are missing the point - it does not reflect on them personally, it's just a statistical measure that's relatively simple to aquire and is fairly reasonable, as has been pointed out. Don't bristle at the terms used, like 'not esablished' - it's just the best one-word description of the concept they could come up with. Again, no reflection on individuals.

On a personal note, I don't care how poorly off I become, I am never moving back in with my parents on a permanent basis. It has nothing to do with embarrassment - I'd lose my mind. I'm happy for those of you who can live with your parents successfully, or even happily. Besides, while it may not be typical of recent American culture, living with one's parents and eventually taking care of them and inheriting their house is a concept that's been successfully used for a very long time. No reason to waste your options because they aren't popular.

[LadyTevar]

Bob, I hate to tell you this, but Nit and I paid only $2000 for our wedding.

Most of the things like nuts, mints, chips, wine glasses, bowls for the snacks, etc., we got at the Dollar Tree for a buck each. No one could tell, cause they were real glass and looked very spiffy.

The material for my dress and the dresses for the matron of honor and flowergirl? $200. The Matron sewed them for free, her wedding gift to me. Martin's suit was $300. The cake was my mother's gift. The flower arrangements were gifts from a cousin. The honeymoon trip was a gift from his parents. The pavilion and rental chairs were $200, the reverend $50, the liscense $36.

So..... what all did your wedding have that it cost $27k?

[Coyote]

I know from looking for work (back in the day 'fore deployment solved all my problems, ha ha) that a lot of it is the frustrating and out-of-touch demands employers have on people.

That employers won't hire you without a college degree is somewhat of a given in some cases and a canard in others-- a lot of it si the Work Experience.

Employers want to see lots and lots of Work Experience, but they won't accept the obtaining of a degree as part of that experience, and they also cannot comprehend how fluid the job market is these days.

If you have more than one job over the course of three years, you're considered a volatile hire risk-- you're seen as nomadic and undependable. But it is the jobs, I think, that are undependable. People get hired and then laid off as the markets turn, and through no fault of the worker.

Employers hire people for part time and low-pay jobs, knowing they can set the terms and the workers have little other choices. Workers get no benefits or are expected to work extra hours for litle pay, making the prospect of raising a family seem a formidable task. If you ask for time to be with your family, you are a 'slacker' who will never see another promotion again.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Bob, I hate to tell you this, but Nit and I paid only $2000 for our wedding.

Most of the things like nuts, mints, chips, wine glasses, bowls for the snacks, etc., we got at the Dollar Tree for a buck each. No one could tell, cause they were real glass and looked very spiffy.

The material for my dress and the dresses for the matron of honor and flowergirl? $200. The Matron sewed them for free, her wedding gift to me. Martin's suit was $300. The cake was my mother's gift. The flower arrangements were gifts from a cousin. The honeymoon trip was a gift from his parents. The pavilion and rental chairs were $200, the reverend $50, the liscense $36.

So..... what all did your wedding have that it cost $27k?

Mostly it was the costs of renting the locations (a very lovely lake area and hotel ballroom), the food (a condition of the hotel), the band (in retrospect not the best idea, but live music did make everything interesting), the honeymoon, and the costs of commuting between the Bay Area and Orange County (500 miles away) about twice a month for the last 6 months of preparation. All the other costs could be covered by my savings, but the travelling--and an unforseen event of apartment rental breakdown (damn the landlords of the Bay area)-- sapped away what I thought would be a hefty and healthy margin of safety in the savings. Also, both my wife and I failed in our last math class (along with 70+% of the class) and had to retake it, so we had to rent an apartment for another six months and have more student loans... and more travelling since we couldn't move to OC right off.

[Death from the Sea]

I can attest to this personally. Between the cost of paying my student loans and the bureaucratic horseshit I've been fighting trying to get my teaching certification, I'm 23 and still stuck at home. And because I'm working a shit job and don't have my own place, my romantic prospects are limited (it's extremely embarassing to even talk about with new people). It's been slowly making me more and more miserable.

I am in almost the same boat, my student loans are not killing me like it sounds your are(I managed not to borrow much thanks to various scholarships and my GI Bill). But I changed my mind about where I wanted to move when I got out of college so the yearly hiring at the police department passed me by and I have been stuck at home. I am currtently substitute teaching for three different school districts, so I work full time. And it is very embarrassing to tell a girl(or a new friend) you live mom and dad especially when you are 27 like me.....
soon though in the next 2 or 3 months I will start working for the PD and move out on my own. I eagerly await the day I move out for the THIRD time and make it permanent.

[weemadando]

In Tassie, rent where I am living at the moment is 190 a week, for a 2 bedroom house with a nice back-yard in nice part of town. Now, with both me and my g/f living here, that means we are paying 190 a fortnight each. Which is pretty good. But if we were wanting to OWN this house, it would probably cost us upwards of 250,000. There have been several reports in Australia that have shown that our generation will likely have a MASSIVE percentage of people who will rent their whole lives because the cost of buying even a small flat is so ridiculously high in Australia today.

Thankfully we don't have to pay up front for higher education at the moment (though the new "improved" Howard Gov't is likely to put paid to that), so it is easier for people to survive through university and afterwards.

[PainRack]

It is my job to help qualified young people who are attempting to get established. Learn more here.

Bah, neither the SAF, SPF and Singapore Prison Force wants me....................... I don't blame them, because while my attitude and knowledge is certainly better than most of the other applicants, I'm overweight and can't pass a physical to save my life. Sigh........................... running 2.4 klicks twice a day, and I still can't pass that stupid test. GRRRRR.....


The sad thing is, without a tertiary education, whether its a certificate, diploma or a degree, its virtually impossible to get any work that isn't part time. I'm now working as a material handler in a factory, and interestingly, my part-time status means I earn an additional one hundred dollars more than the full time workers there. For a grand total of 800 dollars a month.

[Edi]

That'd be an average or slighty below average paycheck here, because iirc the Singaporean dollar was somewhere around €2 in value.

Edi

[Col. Crackpot]

you know what pisses me off? I have a few friends that skipped college and went into the building trades. One is an electritian and the other a plumber. Both, like me are in their late 20's, however they have no college loan debt and make so much goddamn money it makes me sick. Sick to the point that i wish that i said fuck it, and got a plumber's apprenticeship when i was 18. One just bought a new Caddilac. The new STS. A fucking $60,000 car. At 28 years old.

[BoredShirtless]

you know what pisses me off? I have a few friends that skipped college and went into the building trades. One is an electritian and the other a plumber. Both, like me are in their late 20's, however they have no college loan debt and make so much goddamn money it makes me sick. Sick to the point that i wish that i said fuck it, and got a plumber's apprenticeship when i was 18. One just bought a new Caddilac. The new STS. A fucking $60,000 car. At 28 years old.

Is it too late? Do a night course in plumbing or something. You're still a little chicken, you've got plenty of time.

[Edi]

you know what pisses me off? I have a few friends that skipped college and went into the building trades. One is an electritian and the other a plumber. Both, like me are in their late 20's, however they have no college loan debt and make so much goddamn money it makes me sick. Sick to the point that i wish that i said fuck it, and got a plumber's apprenticeship when i was 18. One just bought a new Caddilac. The new STS. A fucking $60,000 car. At 28 years old.

This is exactly what I was talking about in my post on the first page. Higher education is not a surefire solution, nor the only one.

Edi

[Darth Wong]

Tradesmen can make good money, but they're looked down upon in American society, which reveres doctors and has some kind of weird love/hate relationship with lawyers (everyone says they hate them, but in my experience, lawyers identify themselves with pride and their wives identify their husbands' professions with even more pride).

[Imperial Overlord]

The love comes from the importance money in determining American social status and everyone knows a successful lawyer can make huge amounts of it.

[Mayabird]

The love comes from the importance money in determining American social status and everyone knows a successful lawyer can make huge amounts of it.

Tradesmen can make loads of cash too, so I wouldn't say that's the whole story. There's more that goes into it, like love/hate of people with power and influence (and lawyers definately love to keep that aura about them). Also, a lot of people tend to look down upon jobs that require lots of physical labor (ewww...sweat, dirt, and grime) and look well on jobs that don't, even if somebody who builds decks outdoors nets more money than he would pushing papers around in some office. (I say 'he' here because I have one of my cousins in mind when I say that. He has a rather successful private business building decks on new houses in Atlanta.)

[PainRack]

That'd be an average or slighty below average paycheck here, because iirc the Singaporean dollar was somewhere around €2 in value.

Edi

Ahem. You got the numbers reversed. Its 1 EU dollar= 1.9 Sing. That means, I'm earning approximately 400 EU dollars.

I talked with Admiral Valdemar on this before......... its a tad depressing because he earned over a thousand pounds against my at that time, 250 pounds. While the cost of living migitates that SLIGHTLY, it makes saving up for a private tertiary education a tad difficult. Its possible to get by on 650 dollars a month. 400 for yourself, 200 for your course fees, but its a pain in the ass and makes any form of independent living impossible.

A trademan doesn't have it much better. A friend of mine who's an A/C technician, earns approximately 1.2k a month.

[J]

you know what pisses me off? I have a few friends that skipped college and went into the building trades. One is an electritian and the other a plumber. Both, like me are in their late 20's, however they have no college loan debt and make so much goddamn money it makes me sick. Sick to the point that i wish that i said fuck it, and got a plumber's apprenticeship when i was 18. One just bought a new Caddilac. The new STS. A fucking $60,000 car. At 28 years old.

While it's true that they make more money now, they're probably close to topping out on their wage scales. While they may eventually make another 5-10k more per year when they peak, there's no way they're going to double their income barring some freak occurence.

Let's use me as an example, I have a shiny degree from a wonderful east coast university, right now I'm just starting out on my career path and I'm making a fair amount of money. Nothing to write home about but it's more than enough for me to live comfortably. The other person would be my BF's buddy, he went straight from highschool to police college and is now on the force making about $50k a year, which is a few thousand more than I'm making at present. He'll top out at maybe 10-15k more depending on how the contracts go. Me? Well, my future is literally limitless, I might end up making only a bit more than I am now (unlikely, unless I choose to) or I might end up as one of those consultants pulling in a million with each contract.

I have the potential to go places & do things which tradesmen never will. That's what a degree buys you, freedom and potential. In 15 years that plumber will still be a plumber, he'll earn a few thousand more but he'll still be a plumber. In 15 years I might be the Prime Minister of Canada, a government policy consultant, a professor at my university, or I might go into Law and delight in milking the system.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I have to agree that a degree gives you a better sense of mobility.
I have an Environment Studies degree yet I work in a technical support
position for a company here in Silicon Valley. I don't forsee myself
working in tech for the rest of my life, because I think I would like
to eventually migrate to a financial related job. A degree allows for
this kind of flexibility.

[Stuart Mackey]

While it's true that they make more money now, they're probably close to topping out on their wage scales. While they may eventually make another 5-10k more per year when they peak, there's no way they're going to double their income barring some freak occurence.

Let's use me as an example, I have a shiny degree from a wonderful east coast university, right now I'm just starting out on my career path and I'm making a fair amount of money. Nothing to write home about but it's more than enough for me to live comfortably. The other person would be my BF's buddy, he went straight from highschool to police college and is now on the force making about $50k a year, which is a few thousand more than I'm making at present. He'll top out at maybe 10-15k more depending on how the contracts go. Me? Well, my future is literally limitless, I might end up making only a bit more than I am now (unlikely, unless I choose to) or I might end up as one of those consultants pulling in a million with each contract.

I have the potential to go places & do things which tradesmen never will. That's what a degree buys you, freedom and potential. In 15 years that plumber will still be a plumber, he'll earn a few thousand more but he'll still be a plumber. In 15 years I might be the Prime Minister of Canada, a government policy consultant, a professor at my university, or I might go into Law and delight in milking the system.

Mostly that is correct, but being a plumber does not always mean you have to always be that way or only earn that much. And you dont have to have a degree to earn millions nor to be PM the future is what you make it and a degree does not make it for you.

[Stuart Mackey]

I have to agree that a degree gives you a better sense of mobility.
I have an Environment Studies degree yet I work in a technical support
position for a company here in Silicon Valley. I don't forsee myself
working in tech for the rest of my life, because I think I would like
to eventually migrate to a financial related job. A degree allows for
this kind of flexibility.

I dont have a degree, yet I am part owner in a company and run the second largest museum of fire fighting in the world.

[Shinova]

Is it a good idea, if you get a computer science degree or a similar tech-field degree, to try to find work at a government agency, or for the military?

[Stuart Mackey]

Is it a good idea, if you get a computer science degree or a similar tech-field degree, to try to find work at a government agency, or for the military?

I think you have it ass about face, decide what you want to do with your life, then get the right quaification to do that job.

[Darth Wong]

Mostly that is correct, but being a plumber does not always mean you have to always be that way or only earn that much. And you dont have to have a degree to earn millions nor to be PM the future is what you make it and a degree does not make it for you.

There is a fairly direct correlation between level of education and salary. The engineering salary survey, for example, shows this correlation quite dramatically, and most corporate executives have postgrad education. The fact that there are exceptions to this rule (as there are for pretty much all rules involving human society) does not mean that the rule itself is invalidated. Business owners in particular are often exceptions, but then again, the majority of new businesses fail. It's inherently risky.