brianeyci wrote:Maybe it has to do with respect. For some unknown reason(s), certain teachers are respected and certain teachers are not, this is fresh in my memory. I will never understand this type of mindset, but it exists and definitely certain teachers with a certain way of talking, speaking or teaching are not "respected" by students.
How did teachers dress thirty years ago?
How do they dress now?
High school was just a couple years ago for me, I remembered the teachers who wore ties having the most "respect". Then again, that might not be universal. My physics teacher wore a different colour golf shirt depending on the day -- red for tests, when he expected half the class to fail lol. And he was the one with the PhD and respected.
Brian
I have noticed this. For some reason, certain teachers just have a certain level of respect amongst the students, where even some of the worst give them no shit.
This fucker for instance was one of the worst (for the curious, the link is his arrest record...all 16 counts of it). And yet, for some teachers, he sat down, shut up, and behaved.
For my school I'd have to lay most of the blame on the administration. They really didn't do a lot to support the teachers. Kids could get away with just about anything they wanted there, and the administration wouldn't do anything to them. They wouldn't be kicked out, suspended, or otherwise face heavy duty punishment. As a result, unless the kids decided to respect the teacher for some reason, the kids knew they could do what they wanted and get away with it.
Of course, my school was just insane. The aforementioned problem student graduated with Honors (the date of his arrest is before graduation!) and our Engineering valedictorian is a damn registered sex offender.
So, we obviously had some very bad problem students...and a really, really bad administration.
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I had several very good teachers, and I have a lot of respect for them. They were good people and inspired educators.
But when I'm coming down on teachers, it's because I have very exacting standards for them. To my mind, teaching is a social function on a par with the military, police, firefighting and other essential civic functions. All too often I've seen people who had no business being anywhere near children who were retained because even in this non-union state it takes practically an act of the legislature to fire a teacher.
I think that one of the biggest problems is that they don't weed them out at the college level for going into teaching for the wrong reasons. The best teacher I ever had spent a whole class discussing her reasons for going into teaching with us.
She said that she didn't go into it because she 'loooooooved children'. (She had a particularly derisive tone of voice when she would say 'loooooved children', reflective of her contempt of people who gave that as a reason.) Her take on the matter, with which I agree: to state that one 'loves children' is to depersonalize them into little cute masses. She admitted that her students were people, and she liked some more than others, and flat out didn't like some.
(But I guarantee you that as students we could not tell who she didn't like, and barely could tell who she did like. She was supremely evenhanded.)
She got into teaching because she had a desire to make a difference, to have the opportunity to change even a few lives for the better.
From what I've seen, her disgust with the concept of 'looooooving children' was well founded in the people I've known who got into education for the wrong reason. They come in thinking of their students as precious little dolls, and end up extremely embittered when their illusions are shattered.
To bring up another example, a man I knew who instructed at a firefighting school always used to start off his first class with new students by looking at them and asking them "Are you insane? No, seriously, are you insane? You are coming here to volunteer to do things that everyone else runs away from. If a house or a building is on fire, sane people run away from it. If a tanker is leaking hazardous chemicals, sane people run away from it."
His little speech was always guaranteed to get several people to walk right out of the class. I would think that a similarly blunt statement needs to be made to people who want to go into the teaching profession. Because they make impressions upon children that those children will carry with them for the rest of their lives, for good or for ill.
That is so damned deadly serious that the importance of it can hardly be exaggerated.
I hate to drag this up after it's been so long since you said this, but this is when I noticed it .
Darth Wong wrote:That's nothing but reactionary thinking; if a kid is behaving really badly you can just suspend him. Goodbye, good riddance. There's still no excuse for constantly whinging that you can't control the kids and expecting half of your parents to start medicating them.
I realize this wasn't really your point, but I thought it might be a nice thing to be known.
Actually, suspension's getting harder and harder to do. If a kid is suspended too many times they get expelled, and if too many kids are expelled (at least in my school district) it reflects negatively on the school's 'score' (an actual score done of schools.) A school can be labled "unsafe" if they expell too many students --even if it's for violent actions or weapons. Yes, I know that is seriously the most backwards thing imaginable. Anyways, suspension will never be popular as long as this is a side issue attached. Also, there's obscene amounts of paperwork involved in many cases, which I've heard teachers at my old school very plainly say is why they never bothered to write most kids up (which means they only do it more often.) What I'd like to see, actually, which I think would solve a lot is more power to the teachers. In the system I was accustomed to, they couldn't even seem to let a kid go to the bathroom without calling administration (exaggeration, but only barely.)
They seem to think it's easier that the kids are just stoned vegetables.
Because, yes, I hate how many kids are getting wantonly medicated out the wazoo.
(uh I have no idea if this post makes sense to anyone but me.)
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A few things came immediately to my mind when reading the OP:
1) Many young teachers want to be less like the 'boot camp drill instructor' hardass teacher and more like the 'big brother/big sister' type teacher. It's difficult to be a hardass, and in a society that's desperate for warm bodies to stand in front of classes, most school systems will unfortunately take whomever they can get to teach classes, which means they get a lot of pansies.
2) As someone who has worked very closely with more than a few teachers of retirement age, kids' attitudes themselves have changed. Hell, they've gotten worse since I started teaching and that was when I was a sophomore in college, less than ten years ago. It's more about the parents and their attitude toward their children's education than the kids themselves. Their parents make excuses for them, saying they bailed on the winter concert because they had some homework to do. So what? You're in high school, kid! Manage your time better--you made a committment!! When there were issues with students in class when I first started teaching, the more common response would be that the parent would talk to their kid about the importance of following through on the things they say they'll do. Now it's more common to talk to parents who explain that their child needs a certain amount of "relaxation time" otherwise he/she will get "overworked," yet the kid is doing after-school acitivities like lacrosse, tae kwon do, sailing, jazz band and working part-time at the local bowling alley. Yet I as the teacher am supposed to be understanding when that kid doesn't write the paper he's known about for two months because he needs relaxation time?!
3) There are young teachers like myself who have found the balance (which is very difficult to find) between being strict, challenging, consistent (with expectations and discipline), yet also warm and engaging. The problem is that there's so much administrative shit that takes up 80% of a teacher's time that many of these talented individuals don't stick it out because there's no reward for being a great teacher other than feeling good that you are a great teacher. Since the tenure system works the way it does, once a teacher secures it, no one cares about his or her execution as an educator until laws are broken and statutory rape has been committed. Until that's changed, there's only the feeling of helping people that keeps good teachers teaching.
4) The pushing of medication is not a teacher's decision. School systems have policies for students with behaviour disablities, and teachers (at best) have a sort of checklist given to them to identify what sort of issue a child has in your class--at worst, teachers are expected to talk to the nurse or guidance counselor to say that something in that kid's behaviour is off. If a teacher believes a student should be medicated and isn't (although why they'd make such a claim without medical knowledge I don't know), they are supposed to report it to the nurse or the guidance counselor, not the student or student's parents directly. Also, some parents are very much against hearing that their kid may need extra attention (I don't mean drugs, but supervision), and if any sort of special education is brought up, even a minor accomodation, MANY parents take that as an insult, a hit against their pride, and refuse, even though an extra study period would help the student greatly.
5) My experiences are more cut and dry than teachers who instruct academic subjects, since there are fewer families who dismiss algebra or language arts as "frivolous" the way they do music at times. Because of this, I deal with more parents who make excuses for thier kids (although, as I said, the frequency with which that happens has definitely increased since I started teaching). I consider myself to be a demanding, strict teacher who reinforces good habits in both the musical world and the real world, and it become disheartening to hear parents rationalize through all the ways their kid is a weakass pussy who flakes out on everything from homework to concerts. There's only so much teachers can do during the day to help enforce responsibility; it has to be enforced at home too.
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In my (admittedly limited) personal experiences, the level of competence of a teacher often had a lot to do with whether he/she could control a class. Disruptive students were a lot more likely to really raise a ruckus in the class where the math teacher was corrected by some of the more mathematically adept students every five minutes, claimed that he'd been "just testing us" or the bio teacher who obviously never read our lab reports (which was good, because she never had all the neccessary equipment for us to do the experiments anyway; we just had to go through the motions of doing them and then guesstimate the results). I, at the time, silently applauded these students. I felt they were saying what needed to be said.
Perhaps teachers are less competent these days, I don't know.
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Zaia wrote:1) Many young teachers want to be less like the 'boot camp drill instructor' hardass teacher and more like the 'big brother/big sister' type teacher. It's difficult to be a hardass, and in a society that's desperate for warm bodies to stand in front of classes, most school systems will unfortunately take whomever they can get to teach classes, which means they get a lot of pansies.
That was a pattern I noticed when I was in highschool, the younger teachers were usually more friendly and "buddy-buddy" with the students while the older ones had a more detached distanced approach. With the older teachers, students could ask them about homework or school related stuff and that was about it, they wouldn't be talking about football while waiting for a classroom to empty out during period changes which I've seen with the younger teachers.
Also for some reason, a few of the older teacher were just downright scary, few students would even think about trying something funny, and those that did were quickly cut down to size. I had Science teacher who could make students shit their pants just by glaring at them, and one time when some students were talking & cracking jokes in class while he was teaching he took a metre stick and slammed it down on the lab table, glared at the bad students while pointing at them and said "you, you, 5% off your final grade, get out of my classroom". One of the guys tried to argue, the teacher said "10%" and starts walking towards the student's desk to throw him out, at which point the guy decided he didn't want to lose any more marks and walked out the door. The doors have a small window in them, and after the student stepped out he just couldn't resist turning around and giving the finger, unfortunately our teacher saw him and announced for the whole class, "25% deduction from his final grade", then he takes a pen and marks it down in his marks book for the whole class to see. The student failed the class (as did roughly 30% of our class), and no one ever thought about trying anything fishy in his class again.
He was one of 3 teachers in our school who did not give a shit about failing students if they didn't learn their stuff, and who weren't shy with giving out C's & D's. Interesting thing is, students who passed their classes usually went on to get all A's & B's in related subjects later on in highschool.
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aerius wrote:That was a pattern I noticed when I was in highschool, the younger teachers were usually more friendly and "buddy-buddy" with the students while the older ones had a more detached distanced approach. With the older teachers, students could ask them about homework or school related stuff and that was about it, they wouldn't be talking about football while waiting for a classroom to empty out during period changes which I've seen with the younger teachers.
My experience was slightly different. The very young teachers throughout my sentence to public education in Odessa could be considered more personable inasmuch as they actually tended to insert themselves into the social fabric of the class, but it tended to produce horrid results as they were clearly guilty on favoritism.
On the other hand, the older teachers who were good and maintained good discipline were almost universally approachable by all students. Truthfully, among the ones I considered to be the true pros, there was very little intimidation to be found. It was downright artistic, how they could field questions and remain accessible to their students. The teacher I quoted in my previous post was the one that I consider to be the best educator I've ever met, and she was a physically small woman who I don't recall ever raising her voice unless she was behaving in character for text she was reading (she was an English/Lit teacher).
But through a whole year in her class, I can't remember a single disruptive incident. She had us that firmly in hand. Hell, I was a notorious discipline problem and I never even thought of doing anything in her class.
That woman just has pure command presence, of which I am still in awe.
As a current high school student, I think it is probably the perception of to what degree the teacher is going to bite your head off. For example, my politics teacher is only 37, but he commands the class because he can pull out the Mega-Rage Punishment if any gets too noisy.
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My opinion on why kids are so unruly is that they never really fully understand, realize, or grasp exactly what's at stake. What their education really means.
If they fail at all levels, or pass up through this social promotion thing people are talking about, and enter the workforce without the skills necessary to succeed in it, they're pretty much goners. No chance. At least nothing big and truly meaningful.
I think kids nowdays have never really been taught that at some point in their lives. Education's meaning and purpose, and what's at stake is never made clear to them.
Oh, and why some teachers seem to have that "magic", I personally think it's cause the kids themselves can relate to that particular teacher better. Maybe something about the teacher's personality, his sense of humor, or easygoingness. He or she seems less like some bookworm, spectacled figure and more like a person or a fellow to the students.
I've seen teachers like that. All of them are easygoing and outward. Maybe that's one of the key.
I had a few really affective young teachers and some pretty awful ones. It may be that the older ones are the ones who didn't go crazy because they are good at their jobs and the younger bad ones will eventually quit or shoot themselves.
WE, however, do meddle in the affairs of others.
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I would say that my experiance in high school was far from typical, but here are my thoughts on the matter.
I have found that there are four general types of teachers. (Not all teachers fit into these catagories, but most do.)
(A) Teachers who can't control a classroom, no matter what age they are.
(B) Teachers who don't have the abililty to control the classroom, but don't usually need it because they can make anything interesting and engaging.
(C) Teachers like (B), but who can controll the classroom immediatly.
(D) Teachers who are boring, frustrating, and irritating, but who controll the classroom.
The school were I attended HS, (And I work there now.) Has a very young staff. From my experiences as a student, I would say that I didn't really notice a difference between the younger teachers and the older ones. One thing that might explain this is the amount of care that goes into the selection of staff there. (I guess I'm the exception.) Another thing is that there is a great deal of mentoring and cooperation between the younger and older teachers.
Once again, my experiance was highly atypical. I went to the school from the first year it opened. Class sizes were far smaller.
A lot of ground has been covered so I'll merely restate an opinion of one of my former teachers and a good friend: "the schools have failed because the homes have failed."
A student should come to K-6 with at least the rudimentary idea of right/wrong, what is generally acceptable and self-control. Schools are not fucking meant to teach this but they can reinforce it. If it is completely lacking coming into school it will remain so until the parents fix it.
Frankly, I also see this lending credence to the idea that parents throw their kids in school not just for an education but really, as a day care center as well. The same lack of intestinal fortitude to instill any sort of discipline in the child goes hand in hand with the inclination to let someone else (public schools) try their hand at the parents mess of a child.
I've known some absolutely abominable older teachers too, so people should be careful with the generalizations that older teachers are better. There was one english teacher here who was frankly an abusive shithead, he'd bawl students out for having long hair. He marked people down for it too...
There's also always the Technical department too, home of the marginally retarded. I did rather love the rants the staff there would go off on about the entire profession of teaching, apart from themselves of course. The general gist of which was "Teachers have never spent any time in the real world, they go from school to college, then teaching college and end up back at school, they've never been out in the real world, they dont know how it works etc..." which amused me greatly as the Tech teachers HAD been out in the real world, failed miserably and ended up teaching brats how to use a saw for the rest of their lives.
And, there's always the very best example of a piss poor teacher, in this case the Head Master (Principal), who when I was literally stoned by some shit heads for having long hair, his exact words were "Well, dont you think you bring it on yourself?". I take great pleasure in the fact that he has since had a nervous breakdown and gone on "an extended sabbatical".
Then again, there were some good older teachers at my school too, particularly in the Art department. They wouldnt take crap, but they werent assholes about it. The computing department was good and so was maths, but the science department was appaling, there was one little man who took great pleasure in throwing things at students he didnt like, and another who tended to 'accidently' rub himself against the girls in the classes when walking around. This was at least offset by some amusement from one of the chemistry teachers who was the very definition of "absent minded", turning on the wrong gas tap and setting fire to his desk was an entertaining one.
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Darth Wong wrote:I'm reminded of the ADHD problem; 30 years ago a teacher probably would have just declared that the kid was hyperactive and tried to manage the situation. Now the teacher considers it a medical issue and tries to force the parent to "fix" the kid so he won't require extra attention.
Everytime my sister hears someone go and diagnose another of some mental illness, she just springs back and says; 'Excuse me, but who was the qualified person who made that diagnosis?'
Usually shuts them up, but then again she is a pschologists so ...
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Ghetto Edit : Sorry forgot to answer the question.
It all comes down to people management skills. Some people have it, others learn it and still more others don't either have it or learn it.
Even at my school it fell down onto who had it and didn't. There was one teacher, who must have been easily 100, but he was hopeless, there was another teacher, our year 12 physics teacher, straight out of uni and smokin' hot, who had the entire class wrapped around her little finger. Only once did she lose control of the situation.
People management, that's all.
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For third grade I went to school that was still allowed to paddle students. IIRC only two or three kids in my grade got paddled that year and I think it probablly caused more problems than I think it solved since I think the kids really resented it more than learned anything from the experience. The threat of a paddling, and knowing that it was actually in use, certainly was a good deterrent to the rest of us though.
My mom always said that if they had paddled one of her kids without her permission she would have sued them. It wasn't that she was against corporal punishment entirely. It was more along the lines that she felt that if her kids where that much of a problem it should be reported to her or my father, and then if they decided spanking was required....
In a way I think a lot of kids where in the same boat as I was. If I got in trouble at school there was a good possibility I might be in even more trouble at home.
All the other years that I was in school in Iowa there was no spanking allowed in school. I'd say that for most years I had older more experienced teachers and I don't think they took crap from any kids. Plus they were backed up by the principals and if that wasn't enough the school board usually sided with them. Not that it usually got that far. I think in most cases all it would take was someone from the school speaking to the parents.
So maybe there were fewer problems because there were usually three strong authority elements involved. Rarely would it just be the teacher being hung out to dry by the school (prinicpal / school board) and the parents.
By the time I was in high school the school didn't take any crap. At that time if you had passed 8th grade or were 16 you weren't required legally to have anymore schooling. That meant that in high school they were serious about expelling students who were too often a problem. I think if you were suspended three times in a year they would just expel you.
When a student was on a out of school suspension they got automatic zeros for all tests, papers, quizes that were given during that time and were not allowed to make them up. I think it was presumed, and rightly so, that most students wanted to actually make it through high school. I'm guessing that a reasonably high high school graduation rate helped make this possible since any high school drop outs would be in the minority and seriously handicapping themselves when it came to working in the real world.
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For all the people who complain about welfare parents, it's a real problem, but do you have any evidence that the problem is worse today than it was 30 years ago?
Also, regarding the "parents treat schools as daycares" argument, I have some news for you: THAT'S WHAT IT IS. They take care of your kids for most of the day; that's a fucking daycare. 30 years ago, the responsibilities were the same, but the unions hadn't yet gotten quite so adept at whining about their perceived problems.
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Darth Wong wrote: They take care of your kids for most of the day; that's a fucking daycare. 30 years ago, the responsibilities were the same, but the unions hadn't yet gotten quite so adept at whining about their perceived problems.
Maybe 30 years ago parents cared differently, and worried less about, children, and probably worked more.
So they had less chances and were less willing to whine.
If parents whine less, teachers think to have more "power" and feel better about their work.
My mom was definately on of the "old-school" teachers, you just couldn't get away with anything around her. She wouldn't yell or shout, but would talk to you in a very stern voice and wouldn't back down. on the playground, the kids refered to her as a battle-axe, but they would behave whenever she was on duty. She also treated kids like people and always explained why they were in trouble. If you behaved, then there would be treats and perks, but they'd be revoked at the first sign of trouble.
There are good and bad teachers out there. I had my share of both. Once a bad teacher gets into a continuing full time position, they're in the system for good. But a good administration will try to keep the real bad ones from ever getting in. In my home town we had one guy who had been substituting for 11 years without getting any offers. He was absolutly crap with dealing with kids. Even well behaved ones would start misbehaving around him cause he just pissed everyone off all the time.
Part of it is culture. As has already been said, we have become inclined to tollerate a greater degree of insubordination and hyper-activity by over-diagnosing bad behavior as social and learning disorders. There’s also the fear of litigation – a teacher is often hamstrung for lack of options if a student does not receive simultaneous discipline at home. That is demonstrated by the end of corporal punishment.
I also think teaching everybody that they’re a “special individual” with the right of this or that has done a lot of damage. For example, younger kids were less respectful and more obtrusive by the time I was older; as schools began to crack down especially hard on those who tried to emphasize or take advantage of class or age division in the hallways and whatnot. Part of that was bullying that required a response; part of that was taking your lumps in a hierarchy that probably helped enforce healthy acknowledgement of your betters.
Axis Kast wrote:For example, younger kids were less respectful and more obtrusive by the time I was older; as schools began to crack down especially hard on those who tried to emphasize or take advantage of class or age division in the hallways and whatnot. Part of that was bullying that required a response; part of that was taking your lumps in a hierarchy that probably helped enforce healthy acknowledgement of your betters.
Are you seriously saying that having people "take their lumps" in an arbitrary hierarchy is a good thing? And that people who find themselves on top of such a hierarchy are automatically better than the people on the bottom?
You know what? Fuck that. In order to get my respect, people have to earn it. Stupid arbitrary hierarchies can suck my meritocratic balls.
SirNitram wrote:Some of Column A, some of Column B. Learning Disorders being over-diagnosed has definately made more teachers lazy, but the growing cultural opposition to intellectualism has definately made schoolwork less important in many people's eyes.
In all my observations, it has been due to a combination of the anti-intellectual/anti-education attitudes of many children combined with a decreased ability to punish troublemakers. When kids feel more like talking back then ever and the teachers are not allowed to reprimand them for it, you're bound to have some trouble.
This is completely an anecdote, but recently a school in my area had to switch teachers because the students were completely uncontrollable (and I don't just mean that they had "ADHD" or whatever). When they put in a tough-talking male teacher who was more intimidating, the class started to shape up pretty fast. Now (a year later), I know that some of the students hang out at the school and even stop by to visit the guy after they graduated.
His theory is that a lot of them just didn't have strong male role models in their lives who would lay down the law and that's why they responded to him.
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