Brexit and General UK politics thread

[His Divine Shadow]

I dunno what is up with you lately but quit acting like the poor old guy who yells at the loud kids. Simmer down and act like a mature, rational being.

As to your argument on the issues - Corbyn is still waivering on the toxin being used by the Russian state. I have no sympathies for Putin enablers like him.

Lol if anyone's a fucking putin enabler, it's the guy who in typical centrist fashion shits on the left wing for the flimsiest reason and gets into bed with the right wing party funded by russian oligarchs.

And you can keep that mature rational crap you're peddling. That shit's for milquetoast centrists who have no actual convictions or beliefs beyond keeping their stations and appearing as the calm rational adult, all while the dumb shitty political system they built crumbles around them because they have no answers or solutions to todays problems aside from "everything's fine, stop rocking the boat". Style over substance incarnate.

[His Divine Shadow]

Actually, he was pretty unequivocal on this one; the closest he came to "wavering" was saying that maybe we should make sure beyond reasonable doubt that we had our facts straight before we start the airstrikes.

Not that the redtops saw it that way, of course...

The tories won't go against their money backers, that's why all they've done so far is the diplomat thing, oh laadi da that sure stung. They'll huff and puff and make bombastic statements and wait for things to blow over.

Also an interesting article.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -extremism

[K. A. Pital]

I have no sympathies for Putin enablers like him.

Sigmar Gabriel and Merkel could have punished Putin quite severely by stopping Nord Stream 2, but I guess they're also "enablers" and I hope you will stay true to your word about not having any sympathies for Putin enablers?

I mean, a row over a dead spy is surely less important than a fuel deal which will fill the coffers of the Russian state and so also of Putin and his circle, with loads of hard cash, and prop up the entire Russian economy?

[Thanas]

Sigmar Gabriel and Merkel could have punished Putin quite severely by stopping Nord Stream 2, but I guess they're also "enablers" and I hope you will stay true to your word about not having any sympathies for Putin enablers?

I mean, a row over a dead spy is surely less important than a fuel deal which will fill the coffers of the Russian state and so also of Putin and his circle, with loads of hard cash, and prop up the entire Russian economy?

You know my opinion of Merkel and Gabriel (and more importantly schröder who is the chief enabler in the russian energy sector getting footholds in Germany), so I am surprised you even ask me that question.

I do think a proportional response and clear condemnation is needed. Maybe kill some Russian intelligence officials in retaliation, maybe harsher sanctions, maybe even stopping the pipeline.

Lol if anyone's a fucking putin enabler, it's the guy who in typical centrist fashion shits on the left wing for the flimsiest reason and gets into bed with the right wing party funded by russian oligarchs.

Who is.....who exactly?

And you can keep that mature rational crap you're peddling. That shit's for milquetoast centrists who have no actual convictions or beliefs beyond keeping their stations and appearing as the calm rational adult, all while the dumb shitty political system they built crumbles around them because they have no answers or solutions to todays problems aside from "everything's fine, stop rocking the boat". Style over substance incarnate.

Your posts are getting more and more raving and more and more harder to read, along with having personal attacks in every single one of them. So I would suggest you shape up merely for the sake of getting your message across, instead of appearing like a raving lunatic or a russian-funded twitter bot. This is an appeal to your presumed intelligence. It is a request made in good faith.

[His Divine Shadow]

If you don't like the way I talk, not much you can do to change it really. I yam what I yam

[His Divine Shadow]

As for the who is who question, well it's a pretty open ended statement I guess, I mean I could mean you for going after Corbyn despite him being the one with the only objectively correct stance in the matter (wait for the evidence to be processed), while also being the first one to suggesting the hardest hitting form of sanction against Russia.

Or I could just mean centrists/liberals in general. I mean the same argument applies equally to both. Again to me it just shows your kind are more keen to attack the left wing and your natural allies are actually on the right of center. By your kind I then presume you are a centrist/liberal, which you are free to reject but based on my experience of your posts it's how I categorize you.

[K. A. Pital]

You know my opinion of Merkel and Gabriel (and more importantly schröder who is the chief enabler in the russian energy sector getting footholds in Germany), so I am surprised you even ask me that question.

I do think a proportional response and clear condemnation is needed. Maybe kill some Russian intelligence officials in retaliation, maybe harsher sanctions, maybe even stopping the pipeline.

Ok, well, that's consistent. I'd say a proportional response would be killing retired intelligence officers inside Russia, if you really don't doubt it. And I think it's fair to blame Merkel and Gabriel as well as Shroeder, they also have to consider the strong anti-nuclear lobby. Germany won't achieve the emissions goals without Putin - it would have to burn even more coal in the mid-term, which would be disastrous. Honestly I don't see a good way out of it, although there are few things which would please me more than to see Russian oil & gas barons humiliated in front of everyone.

[Numa]

Actually, he was pretty unequivocal on this one; the closest he came to "wavering" was saying that maybe we should make sure beyond reasonable doubt that we had our facts straight before we start the airstrikes.

Not that the redtops saw it that way, of course...

The tories won't go against their money backers, that's why all they've done so far is the diplomat thing, oh laadi da that sure stung. They'll huff and puff and make bombastic statements and wait for things to blow over.

Also an interesting article.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -extremism

Are you proposing that the British Conservative Party is funded by Russia?

I am very intrigued how Russia, a semi-functional country of sorts, is able to be so influential today subverting everyone everywhere when stories about the USSR from the 50s and 60s are regarded as deranged conspiracy theories. The USSR seemed like a much more credible opponent.

[K. A. Pital]

Are you proposing that the British Conservative Party is funded by Russia?

I am very intrigued how Russia, a semi-functional country of sorts, is able to be so influential today subverting everyone everywhere when stories about the USSR from the 50s and 60s are regarded as deranged conspiracy theories. The USSR seemed like a much more credible opponent.

The USSR did not have oligarchs. It did not have people who are part of the transnational capitalistic elite, but still have national loyalties (or are at least reported to have them). It was hellbent on destroying the Western world order and provided almost every former colony in existence with cheap weapons for uprisings or post-decolonization military support. And it had a sphere of influence that encompassed a lot of the poorer parts of the world, at times almost all of it.

Russia, by contrast, no longer has this sphere of influence among the poor, neither among the rich, but it has a set of oligarchs who sell out its natural resources. In exchange for these funds, the Western "partners" can very well ignore some misdemeanors on part of Russia. Which is daily business.

Before, you could not pretend you were just dealing with private individuals and therefore not Russia as a state - everything was run by the state and no contracts, no deals, not a single item of value could be sold without state approval of the sale.

Now, you can pretend to not be dealing with Russia, but dealing with individuals, the oligarchs, who are just ordinary businessmen. It does not give Russia more influence, but it gives the whole system more corruption.

[Thanas]

If you don't like the way I talk, not much you can do to change it really. I yam what I yam

Yes, there are things I can do. I don't want to do them and am currently preventing others of doing them. But don't doubt that I can do things.

As for the who is who question, well it's a pretty open ended statement I guess, I mean I could mean you for going after Corbyn despite him being the one with the only objectively correct stance in the matter (wait for the evidence to be processed), while also being the first one to suggesting the hardest hitting form of sanction against Russia.

Or I could just mean centrists/liberals in general. I mean the same argument applies equally to both. Again to me it just shows your kind are more keen to attack the left wing and your natural allies are actually on the right of center. By your kind I then presume you are a centrist/liberal, which you are free to reject but based on my experience of your posts it's how I categorize you.

You can categorize me any way you want, I don't really care. What I do care about is having good candidates fielded by the left and by the liberal parts of society. Candidates that do not enable Putin, do not give a bizarre speech in parliament and then have to clarify it via facebook/twitter. The evidence has been processed plenty to the point of them even knowing how the nerve agent was delivered. A nerve agent which is only manufactured by the Russian intelligence services. A nerve agent that has only been weaponized by said agencies. A nerve agent that was employed against critics of Putin and so-called traitors. If Russia used one of their mafia stooges or their intelligence services to carry out the hit does not matter.

Germany won't achieve the emissions goals without Putin - it would have to burn even more coal in the mid-term, which would be disastrous. Honestly I don't see a good way out of it, although there are few things which would please me more than to see Russian oil & gas barons humiliated in front of everyone.

The dependance on Russian gas is a huge problem, yes. More renewables are the only option to me that is somewhat viable - but then the various local governments have pretty much screwed the windpark expansion over.

[His Divine Shadow]

No no I don't buy that, you don't want a good candidate by the left, that's your biggest nightmare, that's why you are so against Corbyn becayuse one finally showed up, uh oh. Corbyns response was perfectly sensible and rational, only pure antagonism explains why anyone would think differently.

As for these others you are preventing, if the fuckers want something, let them do it if they want to, I honestly don't care, you can't lord the threat of banning over me to get me to behave. Understand this, I don't care about threats, they work the other way on me.

[Vendetta]

Are you proposing that the British Conservative Party is funded by Russia?

I am very intrigued how Russia, a semi-functional country of sorts, is able to be so influential today subverting everyone everywhere when stories about the USSR from the 50s and 60s are regarded as deranged conspiracy theories. The USSR seemed like a much more credible opponent.

The British Conservative Party is run by the rich, for the rich. If you are rich, they do not so much care about where you come from or how you acquired your money. You're their sort of people. (For reference, money laundering through the London property market is equivalent to 4% of Britain's GDP, quite a lot of it on behalf of those Russian oligarchs).

[His Divine Shadow]

Holy shit, that the daily heil is a beacon of sanity in this Russia hysteria just shows how broken things are.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... orbyn.html

[K. A. Pital]

Germany won't achieve the emissions goals without Putin - it would have to burn even more coal in the mid-term, which would be disastrous. Honestly I don't see a good way out of it, although there are few things which would please me more than to see Russian oil & gas barons humiliated in front of everyone.

The dependance on Russian gas is a huge problem, yes. More renewables are the only option to me that is somewhat viable - but then the various local governments have pretty much screwed the windpark expansion over.

Yes, they have, and I do understand at least partially why. Wind turbines are not universally efficient in every area regardless of wind current, and because they, well, slaughter wild birds. It's not as simple as "build more turbines", we're not in a strategy game.

[His Divine Shadow]

More mark blyth goodness, tangentially related to brexit and many other things I loved the brexit part were he recounted an event from the Nissan factory in britain where some bigshot was talking to the employees about how "our future is in europe, our GDP will go down" and a worker in the crowd shouts back "your GDP!". Hahahaha! Yeah, in all honesty, fuck your GDP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH8fKebOWeU

[Ace Pace]

More mark blyth goodness, tangentially related to brexit and many other things I loved the brexit part were he recounted an event from the Nissan factory in britain where some bigshot was talking to the employees about how "our future is in europe, our GDP will go down" and a worker in the crowd shouts back "your GDP!". Hahahaha! Yeah, in all honesty, fuck your GDP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH8fKebOWeU

And yet, if the average quality of life will go down, will increased sovereignty have been worth it?

[His Divine Shadow]

Not what I was talking about, you've clearly missed the point.

Edit, to spare you asking:
What it shows is that the people don't got no hope anymore for the current system in providing anything better. All they got is loathing for the elite who created this world. And if they can kick them down a notch, well it doesn't matter if it hurt themselves in the process. So what if things get worse, they are used to it. Uncertainty at this point is better than the bleak certainty of the status quo.

Dismantling the global economic system was never gonna be easy or problem free at any rate.

[K. A. Pital]

A bette reply to “standard of living will go down” is to always mention the following.

The standard of living can vary wildly between nations with similar GDP/c, so it is not a given that the standard of life will worsen when abstract metrics like GDP go down. One has to look at final consumption and median wage incomes much more than to things like GDP

https://www.cgdev.org/blog/world-bank-p ... -available

Just check the series of pairs and you will see.

[Thanas]

No no I don't buy that, you don't want a good candidate by the left, that's your biggest nightmare, that's why you are so against Corbyn becayuse one finally showed up, uh oh. Corbyns response was perfectly sensible and rational, only pure antagonism explains why anyone would think differently.

Corbyn managed to lose an election against the worst campaign in recent history. How is he in any way, shape or form a credible candidate?

As for these others you are preventing, if the fuckers want something, let them do it if they want to, I honestly don't care, you can't lord the threat of banning over me to get me to behave. Understand this, I don't care about threats, they work the other way on me.

I am informing you that a good portion is tired of your shit. I still have hope you will someday remember you have something called manners and respect for your debating opponent.

Germany won't achieve the emissions goals without Putin - it would have to burn even more coal in the mid-term, which would be disastrous. Honestly I don't see a good way out of it, although there are few things which would please me more than to see Russian oil & gas barons humiliated in front of everyone.

The dependance on Russian gas is a huge problem, yes. More renewables are the only option to me that is somewhat viable - but then the various local governments have pretty much screwed the windpark expansion over.

Yes, they have, and I do understand at least partially why. Wind turbines are not universally efficient in every area regardless of wind current, and because they, well, slaughter wild birds. It's not as simple as "build more turbines", we're not in a strategy game.

Eh it is not that. I am more annoyed with the failure to build energy roads from our already finished and functioning wind parks (like the baltic ones) towards the south.

[His Divine Shadow]

I am not debating you, you are not gonna get that amount of effort out of me. Frankly the idea of giving you that much, repulses me.

[Dominus Atheos]

Wait, what's the drama here? I appreciate the links he's been posting. I think I agree with the idea that the two political movements right now are one side who tries to be elite technocrats (but all their solutions have been failing for 20 years or more) and the other side based on racial populism.

And both sides are fundamentally incapable of solving the main issues facing the voters and the people.

So Thanas and some other mods are upset that HDS realizes this and doesn't want to debate which side is right, he just wants to talk about how screwed we all are.

[His Divine Shadow]

There are two populist variants, one left wing and one right wing (with the racial element). There are examples of both in europe. I'm on the side of left wing populism if I were to categorize myself. Because I am pissed at 30 years of liberal centrism pissing away our futures and then getting all huffed up when they don't get the respect they think they deserve.

And of course the centrists and liberals get into bed with the right wing every time, because they pander to the rich before everyone else. I mean the whole world is so disgustingly twisted now that the Guardian, the shitrag, posts articles like this:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -far-right

Frankly after this year, nobody can say without instantly having a turd teleported into their mouth, that the guardian is a leftwing paper or that the BBC or british media is anything remotely fair and balanced. Holy shit the smear campaigns, and you'll see again when the election laws on fair coverage kicks in how it will change. And this is the sick, corrupted shit we're supposed to respect? Fuck respect, tear it all down.

[His Divine Shadow]

-quote is not edit-

[LaCroix]

I love how a British paper is calling an election system based on the British model a "Doctored system"...

[Vendetta]

I love how a British paper is calling an election system based on the British model a "Doctored system"...

Well if you want a system designed to benefit the few, Westminster is the model to go for...