Israeli forces attack humanitarian convoy in intl. waters

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Ah, the good, old tu-quoque fallacy
Yes, yes, Turkey is not perfect. That doesn't remove any of the problems in/with Israel.

They could be charged in court for "insulting turkishness" though.

[Stark]

No, but that's how unimaginative thugs think. Lol, we embarrassed ourselves by foolishly and incompetently attacking you, so ... um... we'll send a boat back to you! And when you deal with it like a normal person... that'll... show ... you...

You have to remember that there's an IvP moratorium for a reason; people honestly just can't be rational about it. The lines were drawn a long time ago and it's really just a race to cartoonishly stupid.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Ah, the good, old tu-quoque fallacy
Yes, yes, Turkey is not perfect. That doesn't remove any of the problems in/with Israel.

They could be charged in court for "insulting turkishness" though.

Turkey played Israel like a cheap fiddle, do you seriously think they'd be unprepared for handling it themselves? This only all happened due to the bumbling clowncar incompetence of Bibi's government. Two braincells rubbing together could handle a reverse flotilla better by a few orders of magnitude.

[Xon]

The lines were drawn a long time ago and it's really just a race to cartoonishly stupid.

I think this thread reached that stage about a dozen or so pages ago, it does appear to have wandered back on track but that is more the exception rather than the rule.

[Coyote]

Actually, as Israel/Palestine threads go, I feel that this one has --for the most part-- been pretty rational, overall.

[Xon]

Actually, as Israel/Palestine threads go, I feel that this one has --for the most part-- been pretty rational, overall.

For an IvP thread it has been staggeringly rational. I mean no-one has been banned or even given warnings.

[Coyote]

Ah, the good, old tu-quoque fallacy
Yes, yes, Turkey is not perfect. That doesn't remove any of the problems in/with Israel.

But at what point does "pointing out the hypocrisy" become a tu-quoque?

The way Israel is trying to do this, I admit, is the typically --staggeringly incompetent-- poor PR handling that the Israeli government in general and the Bibi Administration is famous for, but the two-faced concern over one group's human rights vs. anothers' being allowed to go unremarked is a valid criticism, IMO.

[Serafina]

Ah, the good, old tu-quoque fallacy
Yes, yes, Turkey is not perfect. That doesn't remove any of the problems in/with Israel.

But at what point does "pointing out the hypocrisy" become a tu-quoque?

It is always a tu-quoque fallacy if you use "pointing out the hyporcrisy" as an argument to justify your own actions.
"They are doing it, too" is no valid argument on it's own - it's fallacious.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

It's also a terrible argument because Turkey's Armenian and Kurdish populations aren't oppressed, and particularly, though just last week Kurdish seperatists attacked a military base and killed several soldiers, Turkey didn't respond by killing thousands of Kurdish civilians and attempting to starve the rest into submission and prevent them from trying to build houses.

EDIT: Oh, and because of the fact that Israel also denies that the Armenian Tragedy was a genocide. lolol

[Sea Skimmer]

It's also a terrible argument because Turkey's Armenian and Kurdish populations aren't oppressed, and particularly, though just last week Kurdish seperatists attacked a military base and killed several soldiers, Turkey didn't respond by killing thousands of Kurdish civilians and attempting to starve the rest into submission and prevent them from trying to build houses.

Only because they already fucking did that stuff, and are now working with the results. Aside from several tens of thousands of dead the Turks engaged in a rather large program of forced over the past several decades aimed at taking Kurds out of the hills and forcing them into easily guarded towns. The Kurdish language was also banned for quite some time, and while its now legal for everyday use it is still banned for use in politics and kids cannot be given Kurdish names.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/turkey0 ... oc97005223

[Serafina]

It's also a terrible argument because Turkey's Armenian and Kurdish populations aren't oppressed, and particularly, though just last week Kurdish seperatists attacked a military base and killed several soldiers, Turkey didn't respond by killing thousands of Kurdish civilians and attempting to starve the rest into submission and prevent them from trying to build houses.

Only because they already fucking did that stuff, and are now working with the results. Aside from several tens of thousands of dead the Turks engaged in a rather large program of forced over the past several decades aimed at taking Kurds out of the hills and forcing them into easily guarded towns. The Kurdish language was also banned for quite some time, and while its now legal for everyday use it is still banned for use in politics and kids cannot be given Kurdish names.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/turkey0 ... oc97005223

Which is kind of the point - Turkey actually learned from it's history, while Israel evidently doesn't.
Still, the whole issue is moot - it doesn't change anything about the current situation.

[Anguirus]

A shame that they only became so motivated to "help the Kurds and Armenians" by Israeli nationalist pride. Still, the only way they will actually succeed in their "Turkey is as bad as Israel" goal is if they somehow manage to get themselves shot.

[MagnusTheReD]

A shame that they only became so motivated to "help the Kurds and Armenians" by Israeli nationalist pride.

I wouldn't be holding my breath for that either - this whole deal is as much a political stunt as this whole Gaza flotilla business is.
I'm willing to bet my firstborn gerbil that the organizers of the "revers flotilla" don't give a flying fuck about the suffering of the Kurds and Armenians.
Much as the organizers of the Gaza flotilla don't really care about the suffering of the Palestinian people.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Much as the organizers of the Gaza flotilla don't really care about the suffering of the Palestinian people.

Location: Israel

Because I'm totally taking your opinion at face value.

[MagnusTheReD]

Much as the organizers of the Gaza flotilla don't really care about the suffering of the Palestinian people.

Location: Israel

Because I'm totally taking your opinion at face value.

Why?
Are you accusing me of bias?
On what grounds, if you don't mind?

Besides, it's my fucking opinion - why would you take it in face value?

[Elfdart]

A shame that they only became so motivated to "help the Kurds and Armenians" by Israeli nationalist pride.

I wouldn't be holding my breath for that either - this whole deal is as much a political stunt as this whole Gaza flotilla business is.
I'm willing to bet my firstborn gerbil that the organizers of the "revers flotilla" don't give a flying fuck about the suffering of the Kurds and Armenians.
Much as the organizers of the Gaza flotilla don't really care about the suffering of the Palestinian people.

Keep in mind that aside from the Turkish government and its paid flunkies, the group in the US that was most vocal about denying the Armenian Genocide (and making sure Congress never used the word genocide in a resolution describing the extermination campaign against the Armenians) was the Israel lobby and its stooges. Turkey protested the Gaza Massacre and suddenly AIPAC, the ADL and other Israeli henchmen aren't so interested in blocking the resolution.

[MagnusTheReD]

A shame that they only became so motivated to "help the Kurds and Armenians" by Israeli nationalist pride.

I wouldn't be holding my breath for that either - this whole deal is as much a political stunt as this whole Gaza flotilla business is.
I'm willing to bet my firstborn gerbil that the organizers of the "revers flotilla" don't give a flying fuck about the suffering of the Kurds and Armenians.
Much as the organizers of the Gaza flotilla don't really care about the suffering of the Palestinian people.

Keep in mind that aside from the Turkish government and its paid flunkies, the group in the US that was most vocal about denying the Armenian Genocide (and making sure Congress never used the word genocide in a resolution describing the extermination campaign against the Armenians) was the Israel lobby and its stooges. Turkey protested the Gaza Massacre and suddenly AIPAC, the ADL and other Israeli henchmen aren't so interested in blocking the resolution.

Yeah, my point exactly - hardly anyone does anything good nowadays without it being somehow beneficial to his causes.

I was going to add a comment about how this whole "definition of genocide" deal became nothing more than cheap political leverage in that post, but I thought it would be too much off-topic.

[bobalot]

Much as the organizers of the Gaza flotilla don't really care about the suffering of the Palestinian people.

Location: Israel

Because I'm totally taking your opinion at face value.

Why?
Are you accusing me of bias?
On what grounds, if you don't mind?

Because you have provided nothing to back it up. Pretty much nobody in Israel gave a shit about the Armenians or the Kurds before, where as these groups who organised this flotilla have been whining about Gaza for some time.

Besides, it's my fucking opinion - why would you take it in face value?

Er, that was the whole point, genius.

[Stark]

Don't you see? It's acceptable because it's a political stunt.

One stunt involves violence, death, lying and misdirection

One stunt involves actually helping people.

See how they're the same? Helping brown people is just as bad as allowing the IDF to humiltate themselves.

[Sea Skimmer]

Which is kind of the point - Turkey actually learned from it's history, while Israel evidently doesn't.
Still, the whole issue is moot - it doesn't change anything about the current situation.

They didn't learn anything, the Turks harsh tactics simply did suppress most resistance. Most of the trouble they have now comes from the Kurdish groups in Iraq which easily cross the boarder. This is why every few months now the Turks having been launching bombing raids into Iraq, and more then one ground incursion.

[MagnusTheReD]

Because you have provided nothing to back it up.

That's not the reason Schatten cited.
Specifically, I wanted to know why does he see fit to dismiss me solely on the basis of my place of origin.
At least that's how it appeared to me...

Pretty much nobody in Israel gave a shit about the Armenians or the Kurds before, where as these groups who organised this flotilla have been whining about Gaza for some time.

That's not true - I remember seeing some left-wing activists protesting our government's policy about the Armenian genocide some time ago (I'll see if I can find some info).
And in the same time, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the causes behind the organization of the "reverse-flotilla" are 100% selfish.
So why would the sincere whining about the Gaza siege come in conflict with the notion that the causes behind the organization of the "flotilla" aren't as noble as some people think they are?

IIRC, at some point they simply admitted that their primary goal was not to relieve the suffering Gazans, but to grab some media attention.
So forgive me that I don't get my panties in a twist when I hear about all those "relief" workers rushing to the rescue with half their medicine cargo expired...

Besides, it's my fucking opinion - why would you take it in face value?

Er, that was the whole point, genius.

What point?
That my personal, subjective opinion no one should take in face value is a personal, subjective opinion no one should take in face value?

[Eleas]

IIRC, at some point they simply admitted that their primary goal was not to relieve the suffering Gazans, but to grab some media attention.

You do realize, do you not, that the very act of publicising the situation (thereby presumably ensuring future attempts at relief work would benefit from that) would, in itself, constitute humanitarian aid?

One could apply the same argument to Gandhi, come to think of it. I suppose his primary goal had nothing to do with relieving the suffering of Indians?

[Stark]

Rendering token aid in charity to raise awareness = just as bad as piracy/murder/lying about weapons etc.

This thread is going to be a great reference for the next tough-guy thread. The damn Rotary Club should be stopped!

[Elfdart]

Don't you see? It's acceptable because it's a political stunt.

One stunt involves violence, death, lying and misdirection

One stunt involves actually helping people.

See how they're the same? Helping brown people is just as bad as allowing the IDF to humiltate themselves.

If the Turkish government truly wanted to humiliate Israel, they would allow this counter-flotilla to land, show them every courtesy, give them road maps to the Kurdish region and send them on their way.

[MagnusTheReD]

IIRC, at some point they simply admitted that their primary goal was not to relieve the suffering Gazans, but to grab some media attention.

You do realize, do you not, that the very act of publicising the situation (thereby presumably ensuring future attempts at relief work would benefit from that) would, in itself, constitute humanitarian aid?

One could apply the same argument to Gandhi, come to think of it. I suppose his primary goal had nothing to do with relieving the suffering of Indians?

Just to make myself clear - I wasn't questioning the motivation of the people on board those ships.
I'm sure that the majority of them really wanted to help the impoverished Gazans.

What I was having doubts about was the honesty of the organizers of this flotilla.
Specifically, if they really cared about the well-being of the Palestinians, I'm sure they wouldn't have loaded their ship with expired medicines.