Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Flagg »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Flagg wrote:And that's really what it comes down to and why I get really annoyed when liberals say "Well, serves "them" right to lose their insurance!" Because "those people's" kids didn't vote for Trump, and many if not most in a condition like I'm in voted for Clinton. So those supposedly more intelligent (and usually very smug) liberals who in pure spite write off everyone they perceive as having lost access to healthcare to be Trump voters need to turn their empathy chips back on because that's what is supposedly what makes "us" better than "them".
Do you or do you not believe that I am actually doing this thing that you describe?
No, I don't believe that you are. I was saying that I have "heard" (more like "read") it said. If I thought that's what you were saying you wouldn't have needed to ask me if I was. :wink:
I do think, though, that we're about to see one of democracy's most expensive and desperate feedback mechanisms in action: Namely, what happens when the electorate has a collective spasm of screwing-up and elects a bunch of complete lunatics, only to find itself regretting ever letting said lunatics into power on account of elections have consequences. People react negatively to that, on average over time.
That's true, but all too often in FL I would see there being a handful of, or many times one, issue that will cause the right to stay in their comfort zone and give avlying shit that, for instance, just got elected for their 7th term (when while campaigning for their first term promised to only serve 3 terms)
All things are percentage effects.

There is virtually nothing that will cause 100% of people who are now being morons to stop being morons.

It is, however, sometimes possible to get 5% or 10% of people who are being morons to stop being morons, at least until they find a new kind of stupidity to latch on to.

And that's all it would take to gravely undermine the Republican position in modern American politics.

It's like, you're unhappy that the brakes on the car don't work well enough, and it's causing you to seem to have trouble understanding me when I try to say they work at all. There's a difference between "brakes that slow the car down slower than I'd like" and "brakes that don't work at all." The former kind can still result in you going off a cliff, it's a bad thing and I'm not denying it.

But if I'm saying "yeah, there are brakes even if they don't work very well," and you're saying "BRAKES ARE A MYTH DROP YOUR ILLUSIONS," it's kind of counterproductive.
We seem to be having another issue where I'm talking about the now and you're talking about the near-mid future.

I've stated on this board, in this forum, that the GOP will ultimately become a regional party due to simple demographic shifts that they are making no serious overatures to, and that the Democrats, already a centrist party, would hopefully fracture and we'd have a real Liberal party with a chance to gain quite a bit of power.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by houser2112 »

Flagg wrote:I've stated on this board, in this forum, that the GOP will ultimately become a regional party due to simple demographic shifts that they are making no serious overatures to,
Before the 2016 election, I'd have agreed with you. Now, I'm not so sure.
Flagg wrote:and that the Democrats, already a centrist party, would hopefully fracture and we'd have a real Liberal party with a chance to gain quite a bit of power.
Why would you hope this? The Democrats becoming weaker means the Republicans becoming stronger. The Democrats may not be as left as you or I would like, but fracturing the party would not be preferable. I'd much prefer that they get dragged leftward.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Flagg »

houser2112 wrote:
Flagg wrote:I've stated on this board, in this forum, that the GOP will ultimately become a regional party due to simple demographic shifts that they are making no serious overatures to,
Before the 2016 election, I'd have agreed with you. Now, I'm not so sure.
Yeah, I admit that in these dark days my hope for that fades.
Flagg wrote:and that the Democrats, already a centrist party, would hopefully fracture and we'd have a real Liberal party with a chance to gain quite a bit of power.
Why would you hope this? The Democrats becoming weaker means the Republicans becoming stronger. The Democrats may not be as left as you or I would like, but fracturing the party would not be preferable. I'd much prefer that they get dragged leftward.
Remember, this is in a world where the Republicans were pretty much done and the Democrats would have their ranks swell with even more corporatist and shit. It would be a centrist party. The idea is that with the GOP being crushed, the left splits from the Democrats and the US finally has true left wing party.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Elfdart »

Cheetolini's firing of Comey reminded me of a scene from Throw Momma From The Train, where Billy Crystal barges into his buddy's place, waking him and his buddy's girlfriend up. Crystal is scared he's going to be blamed for his ex-wife going missing in Hawaii. He then tries to calm down, pointing out that he was home the whole time so he couldn't possibly have done it...

Then the girlfriend, a stewardess, tells that if he caught this flight at this hour, allowing for X-amount of time on the beach and in traffic, he could have caught the express later that night and been back with an hour to spare and so on and so forth...

To which Crystal's buddy starts laughing out loud, saying "Whatever you did, you're fucking guilty!"

Well that now applies to Trump exponentially. Time to throw that white supremacist Oompa-Loompa from the train. Maybe he'll save everyone the hassle and take the Aaron Hernandez route: hanging himself so his flacks and fluffers could claim he's technically innocent.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

houser2112 wrote:
Flagg wrote:I've stated on this board, in this forum, that the GOP will ultimately become a regional party due to simple demographic shifts that they are making no serious overatures to,
Before the 2016 election, I'd have agreed with you. Now, I'm not so sure.
Flagg wrote:and that the Democrats, already a centrist party, would hopefully fracture and we'd have a real Liberal party with a chance to gain quite a bit of power.
Why would you hope this? The Democrats becoming weaker means the Republicans becoming stronger. The Democrats may not be as left as you or I would like, but fracturing the party would not be preferable. I'd much prefer that they get dragged leftward.
If the glorious day comes when the Republicunts are well and truly obsolete at the national level (say, hypothetically, after it turns out that their leadership engaged in an organized campaign of espionage in collaboration with a foreign adversary to take power), then the Democratic Party would likely split. The Democrats are effectively two major parties held (somewhat) together by fear/hatred of the Republicans, at this point- A socially liberal Centrist Corporatist Party, and a Bernie-style Progressive/Social Democrat party.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Thanas »

So Trump shared codeword-classified intel with the Russians:

Washington Post

President Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former U.S. officials, who said Trump’s disclosures jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.

The information the president relayed had been provided by a U.S. partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, officials said.

The partner had not given the United States permission to share the material with Russia, and officials said Trump’s decision to do so endangers cooperation from an ally that has access to the inner workings of the Islamic State. After Trump’s meeting, senior White House officials took steps to contain the damage, placing calls to the CIA and the National Security Agency.

“This is code-word information,” said a U.S. official familiar with the matter, using terminology that refers to one of the highest classification levels used by American spy agencies. Trump “revealed more information to the Russian ambassador than we have shared with our own allies.”


The revelation comes as the president faces rising legal and political pressure on multiple Russia-related fronts. Last week, he fired FBI Director James B. Comey in the midst of a bureau investigation into possible links between the Trump campaign and Moscow. Trump’s subsequent admission that his decision was driven by “this Russia thing” was seen by critics as attempted obstruction of justice.

One day after dismissing Comey, Trump welcomed Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Ambassador Sergey Kislyak — a key figure in earlier Russia controversies — into the Oval Office. It was during that meeting, officials said, that Trump went off script and began describing details of an Islamic State terrorist threat related to the use of laptop computers on aircraft.

For almost anyone in government, discussing such matters with an adversary would be illegal. As president, Trump has broad authority to declassify government secrets, making it unlikely that his disclosures broke the law.

“The president and the foreign minister reviewed common threats from terrorist organizations to include threats to aviation,” said H.R. McMaster, the national security adviser, who participated in the meeting. “At no time were any intelligence sources or methods discussed, and no military operations were disclosed that were not already known publicly.”

The CIA declined to comment, and the NSA did not respond to requests for comment.

But officials expressed concern about Trump’s handling of sensitive information as well as his grasp of the potential consequences. Exposure of an intelligence stream that has provided critical insight into the Islamic State, they said, could hinder the United States’ and its allies’ ability to detect future threats.

“It is all kind of shocking,” said a former senior U.S. official who is close to current administration officials. “Trump seems to be very reckless and doesn’t grasp the gravity of the things he’s dealing with, especially when it comes to intelligence and national security. And it’s all clouded because of this problem he has with Russia.”

In his meeting with Lavrov, Trump seemed to be boasting about his inside knowledge of the looming threat. “I get great intel. I have people brief me on great intel every day,” the president said, according to an official with knowledge of the exchange.

Trump went on to discuss aspects of the threat that the United States learned only through the espionage capabilities of a key partner. He did not reveal the specific intelligence-gathering method, but he described how the Islamic State was pursuing elements of a specific plot and how much harm such an attack could cause under varying circumstances. Most alarmingly, officials said, Trump revealed the city in the Islamic State’s territory where the U.S. intelligence partner detected the threat.

The Washington Post is withholding most plot details, including the name of the city, at the urging of officials who warned that revealing them would jeopardize important intelligence capabilities.

“Everyone knows this stream is very sensitive, and the idea of sharing it at this level of granularity with the Russians is troubling,” said a former senior U.S. counterterrorism official who also worked closely with members of the Trump national security team. He and others spoke on the condition of anonymity, citing the sensitivity of the subject.

The identification of the location was seen as particularly problematic, officials said, because Russia could use that detail to help identify the U.S. ally or intelligence capability involved. Officials said the capability could be useful for other purposes, possibly providing intelligence on Russia’s presence in Syria. Moscow would be keenly interested in identifying that source and perhaps disrupting it.


Russia and the United States both regard the Islamic State as an enemy and share limited information about terrorist threats. But the two nations have competing agendas in Syria, where Moscow has deployed military assets and personnel to support President Bashar al-Assad.

“Russia could identify our sources or techniques,” the senior U.S. official said.

A former intelligence official who handled high-level intelligence on Russia said that given the clues Trump provided, “I don’t think that it would be that hard [for Russian spy services] to figure this out.”

At a more fundamental level, the information wasn’t the United States’ to provide to others. Under the rules of espionage, governments — and even individual agencies — are given significant control over whether and how the information they gather is disseminated, even after it has been shared. Violating that practice undercuts trust considered essential to sharing secrets.


The officials declined to identify the ally but said it has previously voiced frustration with Washington’s inability to safeguard sensitive information related to Iraq and Syria.

“If that partner learned we’d given this to Russia without their knowledge or asking first, that is a blow to that relationship,” the U.S. official said.

Trump also described measures that the United States has taken or is contemplating to counter the threat, including military operations in Iraq and Syria, as well as other steps to tighten security, officials said.

The officials would not discuss details of those measures, but the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed that it is considering banning laptops and other large electronic devices from carry-on bags on flights between Europe and the United States. The United States and Britain imposed a similar ban in March affecting travelers passing through airports in 10 Muslim-majority countries.

Trump cast the countermeasures in wistful terms. “Can you believe the world we live in today?” he said, according to one official. “Isn’t it crazy?”

Lavrov and Kislyak were also accompanied by aides.

A Russian photographer took photos of part of the session that were released by the Russian state-owned Tass news agency. No U.S. news organization was allowed to attend any part of the meeting.

Senior White House officials appeared to recognize quickly that Trump had overstepped and moved to contain the potential fallout.

Thomas P. Bossert, assistant to the president for homeland security and counterterrorism, placed calls to the directors of the CIA and the NSA, the services most directly involved in the intelligence-sharing arrangement with the partner.

One of Bossert’s subordinates also called for the problematic portion of Trump’s discussion to be stricken from internal memos and for the full transcript to be limited to a small circle of recipients, efforts to prevent sensitive details from being disseminated further or leaked.

Trump has repeatedly gone off-script in his dealings with high-ranking foreign officials, most notably in his contentious introductory conversation with the Australian prime minister earlier this year. He has also faced criticism for seemingly lax attention to security at his Florida retreat, Mar-a-Lago, where he appeared to field preliminary reports of a North Korea missile launch in full view of casual diners.

U.S. officials said that the National Security Council continues to prepare multi-page briefings for Trump to guide him through conversations with foreign leaders, but that he has insisted that the guidance be distilled to a single page of bullet points — and often ignores those.

“He seems to get in the room or on the phone and just goes with it, and that has big downsides,” the second former official said. “Does he understand what’s classified and what’s not? That’s what worries me.”

Lavrov’s reaction to the Trump disclosures was muted, officials said, calling for the United States to work more closely with Moscow on fighting terrorism.

Kislyak has figured prominently in damaging stories about the Trump administration’s ties to Russia. Trump’s first national security adviser, Michael Flynn, was forced to resign just 24 days into the job over his contacts with Kislyak and his misleading statements about them. Attorney General Jeff Sessions was forced to recuse himself from matters related to the FBI’s Russia investigation after it was revealed that he had met and spoke with Kislyak, despite denying any contact with Russian officials during his confirmation hearing.

“I’m sure Kislyak was able to fire off a good cable back to the Kremlin with all the details” he gleaned from Trump, said the former U.S. official who handled intelligence on Russia.

The White House readout of the meeting with Lavrov and Kislyak made no mention of the discussion of a terrorist threat.

“Trump emphasized the need to work together to end the conflict in Syria,” the summary said. The president also “raised Ukraine” and “emphasized his desire to build a better relationship between the United States and Russia.”

B-B-But her emails.

Just keep waiting for those guys who said Hillary was the bigger security risk to eat their crow now.....oh and Trump will be impeached any day soon, right? I mean, this is the definition of treason while being in office, right?

Trump directly told a hostile government information that could lead to allies being killed or intelligence sources being killed.

Honesly, can you imagine the impeachment shitstorm that would happen if Obama or Clinton had done this?

EDIT:
Some reddit comments on the issue:
For all the Republicans sitting on the fence thinking, what harm could he do, he will help us pass tax reform! This is it. This is the harm. Some allied counterintelligence operative imbedded in ISIS is going to be tortured to death by morning. A key ally will stop telling us important information about terrorist plots. We will be more exposed to danger. People will die.
And what about the next asset that wants to feed intel to the U.S. or a nation allied with the U.S.? If I were them, I'd think twice about risking death for a nation that will sell you out at the drop of a hat for no reason. HE EVEN NAMED THE CITY THE ASSET LEAKED THE INFORMATION FROM! WHO THE FUCK DOES SHIT LIKE THIS?!?!?!?!
If he's doing this in a public/photographed setting, imagine what he's doing privately.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Is anyone actually surprised at this point?

The strange thing is that supposedly (if you believe some of the talking heads), this isn't actually illegal. Because the President has the authority to declassify information if he wishes (even though who else would ever do it in this manner?).

But this is another illustration, and a very clear one, of Trump's true loyalties (i.e., to himself, and his Russian paymasters, not the American people). And the shear evil of what he's allegedly done here will aid impeachment efforts, because the question now is not weather we can find an impeachable offence- there seems to be a fairly strong case for Obstruction of Justice, based on his firing Comey to block the investigation into his Russian ties. No, the question is weather we can get enough Republicans to vote for it, rather than ignoring his crimes for partisan purposes. And this will likely push a few more fence sitters into the anti-Donald column.

But if he isn't impeached... well, I probably sound like a conspiracy nut, but if he's putting undercover agents' lives at risk, I suspect its only a matter of time before one of the intelligence agencies tries to put him in the ground.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

It is apparent that Trump is in no way under the thumb of Russia, or that his campaign was involved with Russia in any manner. Now who knows some good recipes for crow? I want to make a big fucking batch for a few people.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Napoleon the Clown wrote:It is apparent that Trump is in no way under the thumb of Russia, or that his campaign was involved with Russia in any manner. Now who knows some good recipes for crow? I want to make a big fucking batch for a few people.
I honestly am not sure if that is sarcastic or not. You sound sincere, but its pretty much the opposite conclusion from what recent reports would lead one to suspect. At best, you can say that Trump's guilt is not definitively proven (and in any case, he's practically confessed to Obstruction of Justice wrt Comey). You cannot by any sane measure say that his innocence is proven.

And frankly, anyone who still automatically dismisses such allegations at this point... well, the kindest thing I could call that is delusional. Although "Quisling" might be more apt.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Raj Ahten »

Now now Trump could just be so incompetent he doesn't realize sharing intel that is so compartmentalized that allies don't even get it with Russia is a stupid play. Not that I consider that any better than treason. Incompetence kills just as well as malice.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Raj Ahten wrote:Now now Trump could just be so incompetent he doesn't realize sharing intel that is so compartmentalized that allies don't even get it with Russia is a stupid play. Not that I consider that any better than treason. Incompetence kills just as well as malice.
Its not Treason in any case. Technically not even illegal, apparently, since the President has the authority to declassify shit (though this is emphatically not the proper way to do it).

The significance of this is not that its treason, or that it will be grounds to impeach/charge Trump.

The significance is two-fold:

1. It will potentially endanger lives and make it less likely that our allies, and our own intelligence agencies, will share classified information with the White House. Thus endangering both our alliances and the accountability of our intelligence agencies.

2. It will cause further moral outrage and political backlash against Trump, which may push a few Republicans to be more inclined to support an impeachment, rather than continue turning a blind eye to the actually criminal things he did.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote:It is apparent that Trump is in no way under the thumb of Russia, or that his campaign was involved with Russia in any manner. Now who knows some good recipes for crow? I want to make a big fucking batch for a few people.
I honestly am not sure if that is sarcastic or not. You sound sincere, but its pretty much the opposite conclusion from what recent reports would lead one to suspect. At best, you can say that Trump's guilt is not definitively proven (and in any case, he's practically confessed to Obstruction of Justice wrt Comey). You cannot by any sane measure say that his innocence is proven.

And frankly, anyone who still automatically dismisses such allegations at this point... well, the kindest thing I could call that is delusional. Although "Quisling" might be more apt.
Extremely sarcastic. Between this, his firing three different people who were involved in investigations surround his campaign's ties to Russia, and that witness intimidation business... Whether or not he approached them or they approached him, or when, it's seeming increasingly unlikely that he isn't Putin's own personal ass slave. Or at least pinned neatly under Malicious Dobby's thumb.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

"Malicious Dobby"? :D I haven't heard that one before. To whom are you referring?

But yeah, its pretty clear that one way or another, he's Lord Vladimort's, as Colbert put it, "cock holster".
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Putin is Malicious Dobby. Back when whichever Harry Potter movie that first had Dobby in it came out, many comparisons were made between the two.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Ralin »

I mean. I haven't found the evidence that he was colluding with/working for Russia at all convincing. But goddamn if Trump doesn't seem to be trying to look guilty of something.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Simon_Jester »

I'm just wondering...

All those people who condescendingly explained to me how it was a big fucking deal that Hillary Clinton had some emails that contained classified information stashed on her private server...

Are they now going to turn around and say that revealing Top Secret compartmentalized intelligence directly to the Russian ambassador in the Oval Office is probably wrong? Probably a big fucking deal of at least equal magnitude to "had some emails on her private server?"

I'm not even going to ask them to say "was it definitely wrong." Or "was it definitely just as big a deal?"

I'll settle for "probably."

......

I mean, I can imagine convoluted scenarios where divulging that kind of information to a potentially hostile power makes sense. Where it's the right thing for the president to do. But it sure doesn't sound like the right thing for the president to do.

And given Trump's documented history of not understanding the context of government actions, not reading briefings, and ignoring regulations... I'm pretty sure he didn't make the decision to spill the beans for some convoluted good reason.

I think he just doesn't give a damn about whether a given piece of information is secret or not, as long as he can't think of a reason for its revelation to hurt him personally.

Which is a far more toxic attitude towards classified information than "if a few classified emails end up on my private server it's no big deal."

Trump is, unsurprisingly for anyone who'd ever heard of him and knew his biography prior to 2015, taking the same character defect that was attributed to his opponent (indifference and insensitivity to classification), and ramping it up by a factor of [BIG NUMBER].
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Simon_Jester wrote:Trump is, unsurprisingly for anyone who'd ever heard of him and knew his biography prior to 2015, taking the same character defect that was attributed to his opponent (indifference and insensitivity to classification), and ramping it up by a factor of [BIG NUMBER].
The BIGGEST, BEST NUMBER. Because Trump won't settle for anything less.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Flagg »

Hey, kids! Can you spell "high treason"?
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by NecronLord »

Flagg wrote:Hey, kids! Can you spell "high treason"?
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."

Yes, indeed, and this isn't it. The US Constitution is very clear about what that is.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Yes, its not, legally-speaking, treason.

It is certainly a betrayal of the United States and its allies. Just not one that can be condemned as such in court.

For impeachment, the strongest avenue to pursue right now is likely Obstruction of Justice, for firing Comey.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Flagg »

NecronLord wrote:
Flagg wrote:Hey, kids! Can you spell "high treason"?
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."

Yes, indeed, and this isn't it. The US Constitution is very clear about what that is.
True, I should have clarified that it's treason as in betraying the United States to a foreign power by being a whomping thundercunt as opposed to the legal definition.

That said, I think the US Cunstitution's definition is far too narrow, but that's neither here nor there.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Flagg »

Simon_Jester wrote:I'm just wondering...

All those people who condescendingly explained to me how it was a big fucking deal that Hillary Clinton had some emails that contained classified information stashed on her private server...

Are they now going to turn around and say that revealing Top Secret compartmentalized intelligence directly to the Russian ambassador in the Oval Office is probably wrong? Probably a big fucking deal of at least equal magnitude to "had some emails on her private server?"
I think they will. Any day now. Any day. Soon.

:angelic:
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Flagg »

Napoleon the Clown wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote:It is apparent that Trump is in no way under the thumb of Russia, or that his campaign was involved with Russia in any manner. Now who knows some good recipes for crow? I want to make a big fucking batch for a few people.
I honestly am not sure if that is sarcastic or not. You sound sincere, but its pretty much the opposite conclusion from what recent reports would lead one to suspect. At best, you can say that Trump's guilt is not definitively proven (and in any case, he's practically confessed to Obstruction of Justice wrt Comey). You cannot by any sane measure say that his innocence is proven.

And frankly, anyone who still automatically dismisses such allegations at this point... well, the kindest thing I could call that is delusional. Although "Quisling" might be more apt.
Extremely sarcastic. Between this, his firing three different people who were involved in investigations surround his campaign's ties to Russia, and that witness intimidation business... Whether or not he approached them or they approached him, or when, it's seeming increasingly unlikely that he isn't Putin's own personal ass slave. Or at least pinned neatly under Malicious Dobby's thumb.
Ass slave? How DARE you impugn the integrity of our POTUS, Vladimir Putin!?!?

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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Yes, its not, legally-speaking, treason.

It is certainly a betrayal of the United States and its allies. Just not one that can be condemned as such in court.

For impeachment, the strongest avenue to pursue right now is likely Obstruction of Justice, for firing Comey.

Well, here is the thing. The President sharing classified information is not illegal because his utterance declassifies it. However, there are other charges that can be made to stick, depending on the precedents set by case law.

18 U.S. Code § 794 - Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government
(a) Whoever, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any foreign government, or to any faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States, or to any representative, officer, agent, employee, subject, or citizen thereof, either directly or indirectly, any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance, or information relating to the national defense, shall be punished by death or by imprisonment for any term of years or for life, except that the sentence of death shall not be imposed unless the jury or, if there is no jury, the court, further finds that the offense resulted in the identification by a foreign power (as defined in section 101(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978) of an individual acting as an agent of the United States and consequently in the death of that individual, or directly concerned nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large-scale attack; war plans; communications intelligence or cryptographic information; or any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy.

(b) Whoever, in time of war, with intent that the same shall be communicated to the enemy, collects, records, publishes, or communicates, or attempts to elicit any information with respect to the movement, numbers, description, condition, or disposition of any of the Armed Forces, ships, aircraft, or war materials of the United States, or with respect to the plans or conduct, or supposed plans or conduct of any naval or military operations, or with respect to any works or measures undertaken for or connected with, or intended for the fortification or defense of any place, or any other information relating to the public defense, which might be useful to the enemy, shall be punished by death or by imprisonment for any term of years or for life.
(c) If two or more persons conspire to violate this section, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be subject to the punishment provided for the offense which is the object of such conspiracy.
This information does not need to be classified. It only needs to be with the intent to cause harm, or the reasonable belief that it will cause harm. Under a strict reading of the text, a POTUS who does this is still guilty. Even if he was not the High Crimes and Misdemeanors clause comes into effect because it is a serious breach of public trust (you have to remember what Misdemeanors meant in the 1700s), as does the fact that bribery was explicitly laid out in the constitution as grounds for impeachment as well. If he was paid or given gifts (say, by helping him win the presidency) in exchange for favors like this well... that would also count.
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Re: Trump Dump: Internal Policy (Thread I)

Post by Flagg »

Yeah, but really, considering the precedents set during Bush the dumber's administration expanding federal power where he could apparently do anything he wanted once he had one of his ass monkey lawyers write up an "interpretation" of how whatever law he wanted to break he was legally able to break, I honestly think President Mata Hari could literally pull a Nixon and say, "I have a lawyer that says that if the President does it, it's not illegal. I'm the President, the best one ever, in like, infinity and forever, I'm so great, and I did it so it's not just legal for me to, it's the best thing that I've done in the past 15 minutes. You know, since I chucked a roll of pennies at some filthy homeless guy and nailed him right between the eyes, bet he wishes he still had healthcare! Anyway it's legal, now go away, I got some Thailand underage girl videos to add to the spank bank."

Who would challenge him?
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