Brexit and General UK politics thread

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Well Labour has now adopted the 'official' international definition of anti-semitism, after several months of infighting.

[Crazedwraith]

But still added a caveat about freedom of speech to criticise Israel and support Palestine.

So the dispute is not going away.

[His Divine Shadow]

Yeah right, as if that will stop. They want Corbyn gone, they don't give two fucks about the IHRA.

Also, 4 point lead:
https://twitter.com/SUP3RNAT1JRAL/statu ... 9754722304

The mainstream media is dying.

[madd0ct0r]

Of course, as a focus for a smear campaign im not sure its that effective. Jews are a tiny tiny minority in the uk, theres probably more wahhabists.
Most antiracist lefties also seperate race and nation, and are also anti colonists and therefore deeply suspicious of israel.
On the right theres those who see anti-semitisim as refreshingly unpc and others having their own conspiracies confirmed by the fairly blatant string pulling (in both parties) by Mossad.

Its not something that seems to be damaging public perception and may be better to allow to rumble rather then encourage a new, different smear campaign. This is the same country where mi5 supported illegal anti union blacklists in construction. Corbyn must really scare some.

[Tribble]

Speaking of Corbyn, given his opposition to attempts at remaining in the EU / EEA it should be obvious now that he prefers a hard-Brexit. While there are no doubt a variety of reasons why, IMO the big ones are that a good chunk of his voting base wants it, he wants to make changes that the EU/EEA would not permit and if Brexit talks / acts in parliament fail the Conservatives will take most of the blame. So it's kind of a win/win for him.

[The Romulan Republic]

If that's the case, then there goes any remaining respect I might have had for Corbyn. Anyone who supports a hard Brexit might as well support dousing Britain in gasoline and lighting a match.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I can see why May was in Africa building bridges- Brexit is going to be so bad they'll be sending us food.

[Tribble]

If that's the case, then there goes any remaining respect I might have had for Corbyn. Anyone who supports a hard Brexit might as well support dousing Britain in gasoline and lighting a match.

Just take a look at how Labour votes on Brexit-related issues, it's not pretty. I'd make a list now but I'm too tired at the moment. Suffice to say that they could have potentially kept the UK in the EU or the EEA with the support of enough Tory rebels if that was Corbyns intention.

[K. A. Pital]

If that's the case, then there goes any remaining respect I might have had for Corbyn. Anyone who supports a hard Brexit might as well support dousing Britain in gasoline and lighting a match.

Why? If he wants it to protect the workers, it is a noble, even if possibly failed, inspiration.

[Zaune]

Why? If he wants it to protect the workers, it is a noble, even if possibly failed, inspiration.

Even if I think it's a defensible position that the status quo isn't worth saving, this approach involves a hell of a lot of collateral damage for uncertain results.

[The Romulan Republic]

Why? If he wants it to protect the workers, it is a noble, even if possibly failed, inspiration.

Even if I think it's a defensible position that the status quo isn't worth saving, this approach involves a hell of a lot of collateral damage for uncertain results.

This. And also, a Hard Brexit isn't about "protecting workers" (who will likely lose their jobs in large numbers in the ensuing economic catastrophy). Its about scape-goating workers' problems on foreign brown people, as part of the Right's divide and conquer strategy.

This sort of destructive politics aimed at those who are "anti-establishment" is a big part of why much of the radical Left have become easy dupes for the Neo-Fascist Right- see Bernie or Bust, the US Green Party, and the 2016 election for a good example of the effects of that on contemporary politics.

[Vendetta]

If that's the case, then there goes any remaining respect I might have had for Corbyn. Anyone who supports a hard Brexit might as well support dousing Britain in gasoline and lighting a match.

Why? If he wants it to protect the workers, it is a noble, even if possibly failed, inspiration.

Any benefit to the poor, working or not, is likely to be offset by the economic damage from withdrawing from the EU making everything, especially essentials like food, more expensive which will disproportionately negatively affect the poor.

Corbyn would like to do a lot more government protectionism and direct investment that isn't allowed in the EU because it's anticompetitive and everyone else would have to do it too, but all it would do is mitigate the damage Brexit has done and probably not entirely at that.

(There are still quite a lot of left Labour policies that could be implemented within the EU).

[madd0ct0r]

Don't forget the purpose of the refenredum - to break labour in england like the scottish ref broke labour in scotland and the vote reform broke the lib dems.

That was the reason for the referendum, and the reason for the brinksmanship - cameron let it slip and slip to force the labour party to rescue the remain campign and take the punishement at the polls. As it stands, Labour at the minute can still point to the party in power who started and are wildly mismanaging the whole thing.

There is little justification for a paternalistic labour party to go against it's core base's inclination. They are elected to represent their base, not to vote the opposite way "becuase we know better." If they'd remembered that before then the referendum may not have gone that way.

BUT the labour base is turning, and labour's lead is growing: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... t-13186920
At this point any action just lessens the pain the tories will suffer and slows the increase of labour support.

[Tribble]

Don't forget the purpose of the refenredum - to break labour in england like the scottish ref broke labour in scotland and the vote reform broke the lib dems.

That was the reason for the referendum, and the reason for the brinksmanship - cameron let it slip and slip to force the labour party to rescue the remain campign and take the punishement at the polls. As it stands, Labour at the minute can still point to the party in power who started and are wildly mismanaging the whole thing.

There is little justification for a paternalistic labour party to go against it's core base's inclination. They are elected to represent their base, not to vote the opposite way "becuase we know better." If they'd remembered that before then the referendum may not have gone that way.

BUT the labour base is turning, and labour's lead is growing: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... t-13186920
At this point any action just lessens the pain the tories will suffer and slows the increase of labour support.

That just reinforces why Corbyn is a big part of the problem. He's fine having the UK burn as it hurts the Tories and increases his vote count. If what you say is true and the longer he waits the better it is for him, then he'll probably make sure the UK completely crashes out of the EU with a hard brexit before acting. If he really wants to hedge his bets, why not wait until after things like medicine and food run low before seemingly riding into the rescue? After all, only the Tories will be blamed, right? Like I said, it's a win/win for him.

Why anyone thinks this is acceptable is beyond me, especially when there are enough mutinous Toryies that he could have salvaged the situation multiple times now if he wanted.

And btw, that does not mean I remotely accept what the Tories are doing either.

[Crazedwraith]

What actions do you think he could/should have taken to salvage the situation?

(I mean that as an honest question, I remember being disappointed they didn't do more in the early legal tussles about article 50, but can't remember details.)

[Tribble]

What actions do you think he could/should have taken to salvage the situation?

(I mean that as an honest question, I remember being disappointed they didn't do more in the early legal tussles about article 50, but can't remember details.)

Not whipping his party into abstaining and/or voting with the Brexit Tories on Brexit votes would be a good place to start.

If May is the one driving the ship full steam ahead into an iceberg, Corbyn is the lookout making sure that she hits it... because he thinks that afterwards the passengers and crew will mutiny and put him in charge. Brilliant plan!

[EnterpriseSovereign]

What actions do you think he could/should have taken to salvage the situation?

(I mean that as an honest question, I remember being disappointed they didn't do more in the early legal tussles about article 50, but can't remember details.)

Not whipping his party into abstaining and/or voting with the Brexit Tories on Brexit votes would be a good place to start.

If May is the one driving the ship full steam ahead into an iceberg, Corbyn is the lookout making sure that she hits it... because he thinks that afterwards the passengers and crew will mutiny and put him in charge. Brilliant plan!

And all the while Nigel Farage is rubbing his hands in glee!

Corbyn's problem is that leading up to the referendum he remained strangely silent on the issue, if he'd come out strongly as remain he could have stopped the trainwreck there and then, instead it was somewhere between half-assed and non-existent.

[Zaune]

He's fine having the UK burn as it hurts the Tories and increases his vote count. If what you say is true and the longer he waits the better it is for him, then he'll probably make sure the UK completely crashes out of the EU with a hard brexit before acting. If he really wants to hedge his bets, why not wait until after things like medicine and food run low before seemingly riding into the rescue? After all, only the Tories will be blamed, right? Like I said, it's a win/win for him.

Why anyone thinks this is acceptable is beyond me, especially when there are enough mutinous Toryies that he could have salvaged the situation multiple times now if he wanted.

And give the Brexit lobby a perfect excuse to perpetuate a stab-in-the-back myth and claim the consequences wouldn't have been all that bad if we'd just been brave enough to go through with it?

No. Screw that. If we want to address the underlying problems with our government and our cultural institutions that got us into this mess then there need to be actual consequences. Backing out and pretending the last couple of years never happened is just kicking the problem down the road.

[Tribble]

He's fine having the UK burn as it hurts the Tories and increases his vote count. If what you say is true and the longer he waits the better it is for him, then he'll probably make sure the UK completely crashes out of the EU with a hard brexit before acting. If he really wants to hedge his bets, why not wait until after things like medicine and food run low before seemingly riding into the rescue? After all, only the Tories will be blamed, right? Like I said, it's a win/win for him.

Why anyone thinks this is acceptable is beyond me, especially when there are enough mutinous Toryies that he could have salvaged the situation multiple times now if he wanted.

And give the Brexit lobby a perfect excuse to perpetuate a stab-in-the-back myth and claim the consequences wouldn't have been all that bad if we'd just been brave enough to go through with it?

No. Screw that. If we want to address the underlying problems with our government and our cultural institutions that got us into this mess then there need to be actual consequences. Backing out and pretending the last couple of years never happened is just kicking the problem down the road.

So in other words you also support a hard brexit.

Well I certainly hope that "burn the whole thing down and maybe things will improve after people suffer for awhile" works as a strategy, though I suspect the more likely outcome is the alt-right seizing even more control once the UK leaves.

[Zaune]

So in other words you also support a hard brexit.

Not the way you mean. At this point, I think the best outcome we can hope for is a Brexit that's hard enough to make anyone not a fully paid up ethno-nationalist and/or anarcho-corporatist realise what a stupid idea it was, followed by a swift application to rejoin. Hopefully accompanied by a bit of collective introspection about what kind of country we are, what kind of country we thought we were and what kind of country we could be instead if we put our minds to it.

[madd0ct0r]

What actions do you think he could/should have taken to salvage the situation?

(I mean that as an honest question, I remember being disappointed they didn't do more in the early legal tussles about article 50, but can't remember details.)

Not whipping his party into abstaining and/or voting with the Brexit Tories on Brexit votes would be a good place to start.

If May is the one driving the ship full steam ahead into an iceberg, Corbyn is the lookout making sure that she hits it... because he thinks that afterwards the passengers and crew will mutiny and put him in charge. Brilliant plan!

1) were the tories whipped? How many rebelled anyway?
2) how many labour mps voted to support?
3) if whipped how many would rebel anyway?
4) of labs voting leave, how many are in constituency that voted leave? How many would lose their seat if they did otherwise?
5) why the fuck arent you blamibg the party in power who is responsible for both referendum, leave campaign and current negotiations?

[His Divine Shadow]

Corbyn seems to have this magical power of getting the blame for everything from certain people, more than the actual people who are actually responsible, usually they have got #FPBE in their twitter names to indicate this. Pretty soon we'll bee seeing people blaming corbyn for shitting in their pants too, I bet. This feels relevant, basically Corbyn should sacrifice himself and labour for other peoples priorities:


Also recently there was an important vote on brexit that only narrowly passed, pretty sure jeremy corbyns labour whipped to vote against that and I recall that dual galaxy brains Vince Cable and Tim Farron who have harped on about resisting brexit and positioned the Lib dems as the party of anti-brexit, fucking missed voting on it both, and it was really fucking close too, 3 votes.

At least a potential hard brexit pain is a transitional compared to the eternal purgatory of neoliberal austerity hellworld. And a labour led UK would bounce back, much like how Iceland ha to suffer some pain from not bailing its banks but 10 years after the fact it was pretty much the right thing todo. The EU is still gonna have to face this as well WRT the euro and german elephant in the room. We're all gonna have to face a lot of pain sooner or later. Just keep your guillotines oiled people.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

So in other words you also support a hard brexit.

Not the way you mean. At this point, I think the best outcome we can hope for is a Brexit that's hard enough to make anyone not a fully paid up ethno-nationalist and/or anarcho-corporatist realise what a stupid idea it was, followed by a swift application to rejoin. Hopefully accompanied by a bit of collective introspection about what kind of country we are, what kind of country we thought we were and what kind of country we could be instead if we put our minds to it.

At which point the UK gets screwed over hard, since they have no fucking clue how we're in a more priveleged position within the EU compared to most. The terms to rejoin will be far worse and will probably mean adopting the Euro, which will give the Brexit bunch all the ammo they'll need. Fucking brilliant.

[His Divine Shadow]

If you join the euro you join an 100% guaranteed economic death cult that will make hard brexit look like a walk in the park once it finally can't be kicked down the road anymore

[Zaune]

At which point the UK gets screwed over hard, since they have no fucking clue how we're in a more priveleged position within the EU compared to most. The terms to rejoin will be far worse and will probably mean adopting the Euro, which will give the Brexit bunch all the ammo they'll need. Fucking brilliant.

I didn't say it was a good option, just that the likely alternatives are all even worse. Especially the ones where the government fails to learn its lesson and doubles down on the anti-Europeanism.