Ukraine War Thread

[Vympel]

So Vympel, how do you expect us to take video interviews on BBC with members of the Vostok battalion who say that "Brother Ramzan asked us to come, so we come"? Are we supposed to believe that there is no external involvement?

I never said there was no external involvement, I said - as the FAIR article rightly notes, that the assertion Russia is responsible for said involvement is completely unsubstantiated by any evidence whatsoever. Anywhere.

No one would be stupid enough - for example - to say that people from the UK going to join the rebels in Syria (which has happened) means the UK government sent them there - or even consented to their going there - but for some reason this reasoning is accepted without question if its Russia.

Anyway, I could've sworn I already posted this, but here's an idea as to the weaponry the rebels in the east are using:



That's a WW2-vintage PTRS 14.5mm anti-tank rifle, with a guy in the foreground using an SKS. Also known as - anything they can get their hands on.

[Thanas]

So Vympel, how do you expect us to take video interviews on BBC with members of the Vostok battalion who say that "Brother Ramzan asked us to come, so we come"? Are we supposed to believe that there is no external involvement?

I never said there was no external involvement, I said - as the FAIR article rightly notes, that the assertion Russia is responsible for said involvement is completely unsubstantiated by any evidence whatsoever. Anywhere.

It is very unlikely that Putin's lapdog Kadyrov would do anything without his approval.

[K. A. Pital]

It is very unlikely that Putin's lapdog Kadyrov would do anything without his approval.

Just like the Western lapdog Saudi and Qatar aristocrats wouldn't funnel money and manpower to islamists... wait. Kadyrov is a local feudal boss. He's only loyal as long as the sword of Damocles hangs over him and the Caucasus, but even then Chechnya is a state-within-a-state.

And I believe he admitted to having sent 14 or so 'volunteers'.

[Block]

So Vympel, how do you expect us to take video interviews on BBC with members of the Vostok battalion who say that "Brother Ramzan asked us to come, so we come"? Are we supposed to believe that there is no external involvement?

I never said there was no external involvement, I said - as the FAIR article rightly notes, that the assertion Russia is responsible for said involvement is completely unsubstantiated by any evidence whatsoever. Anywhere.

No one would be stupid enough - for example - to say that people from the UK going to join the rebels in Syria (which has happened) means the UK government sent them there - or even consented to their going there - but for some reason this reasoning is accepted without question if its Russia.

Anyway, I could've sworn I already posted this, but here's an idea as to the weaponry the rebels in the east are using:



That's a WW2-vintage PTRS 14.5mm anti-tank rifle, with a guy in the foreground using an SKS. Also known as - anything they can get their hands on.

But wouldn't you make a distinction between British citizens going to Syria on their own and being asked to go by the Mayor of London? Or a member of Parliament?

[Thanas]

It is very unlikely that Putin's lapdog Kadyrov would do anything without his approval.

Just like the Western lapdog Saudi and Qatar aristocrats wouldn't funnel money and manpower to islamists... wait. Kadyrov is a local feudal boss. He's only loyal as long as the sword of Damocles hangs over him and the Caucasus, but even then Chechnya is a state-within-a-state.

And I believe he admitted to having sent 14 or so 'volunteers'.

And Spiegel just happened to meet those 14? I don't trust the numbers.

[Thanas]

So the scumbags in the east just executed prisoners on live camera:

"Three days ago one of my men was captured. I have many captured Ukrainian officers: 3 Colonels, one of whom is an SBU Colonel, 3 Lieutenant Colonels ect. For 3 days, there were negotiations for his release. The Ukrainian Junta refused to exchange the officers for that individual whom they captured. At the present moment, all agreements/concessions/promises from the Ukrainian side are all violated. I waited for three days but I do not have time to wait any more. Therefore, Mr. Ubudik and Mr. Vasushinka will now be executed by firing squad. (something about how Mr. Turchinov should join them or something, I can't make this sentence out too well but I can ask my mom and edit it) If within one hour, my person will not be freed, another pair will be executed in an hour. In another hour and a half, a third pair. And like so until 8 officers are executed by firing-squad. If the Ukrainian Army and Government do not need these officers then I surely don't need them.'

(DEFINITELY NSFW)
https://www.youtube.com/v/xEgSrBkJ8Ps

[mr friendly guy]

YT removed your video link Thanas on the grounds it violated their policy on disgusting content.

[Thanas]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=232_1402002420
link working

[Vympel]

But wouldn't you make a distinction between British citizens going to Syria on their own and being asked to go by the Mayor of London? Or a member of Parliament?

That's an absurd characterisation of Kadyrov's position, and that of Chechnya generally. Leaving aside that Kadyrov denies any involvement, the Western media has been utterly desperate to find any evidence of Russian involvement in east Ukraine, and have come up empty repeatedly - not counting the embarassing State Department propaganda attempt that was debunked a day or so after the NYT broke the story for them. I don't see any reason to trust "evidence" based on a CNN reporter walking up to gunmen he doesn't know and just taking their word for who they are and who sent them.

So the scumbags in the east just executed prisoners on live camera:

"Three days ago one of my men was captured. I have many captured Ukrainian officers: 3 Colonels, one of whom is an SBU Colonel, 3 Lieutenant Colonels ect. For 3 days, there were negotiations for his release. The Ukrainian Junta refused to exchange the officers for that individual whom they captured. At the present moment, all agreements/concessions/promises from the Ukrainian side are all violated. I waited for three days but I do not have time to wait any more. Therefore, Mr. Ubudik and Mr. Vasushinka will now be executed by firing squad. (something about how Mr. Turchinov should join them or something, I can't make this sentence out too well but I can ask my mom and edit it) If within one hour, my person will not be freed, another pair will be executed in an hour. In another hour and a half, a third pair. And like so until 8 officers are executed by firing-squad. If the Ukrainian Army and Government do not need these officers then I surely don't need them.'

Horrible if true. Pro-rebels are calling bullshit.

Here's Besler from a month and a half ago:



And here he is in the video:



Those are some pretty rapid moustache growing skills.

Another comparison:



I don't know, it doesn't look like him. To further complicate things, Besler staged a mock execution a few weeks ago saying he had killed two men who then turned up alive and well, having been IIRC released. And that's according to the Kyiv Post, which is firmly part of Kiev's propaganda apparatus.

[Thanas]

No source I have read says that it is Bessler, they say unknown seperatist commander.

[Vympel]

No source I have read says that it is Bessler, they say unknown seperatist commander.

Hmmm. The Ukrainian sources I've seen are accusing Besler (for obvious reasons - "unknown separatist" is less compelling - you need a known figure) - including Kyiv Post.

[K. A. Pital]

Some are saying fake, but let's wait until we get some confirmations.

[Thanas]

Seperatist leader confirms it is authentic:

Financial times

Since the separatist revolt began in March, dozens of people have disappeared or been taken into captivity in rebel-controlled towns in the region. Some were later found dead.

The authenticity of the video, first reported on by local media in Horlivka, could not be independently verified. However, a representative of the separatist authorities that took charge in Ukraine’s eastern Donetsk province after a referendum last month said the shooting shown in the video was authentic.

“I can confirm that this happened,” Alexander Khryakov, a leader of the Donetsk People’s Republic, told the Financial Times.
[...]
In discussing the video, Mr Khryakov blamed Kiev for breaking the terms of an agreed prisoner swap. He said a female separatist prisoner in Ukrainian custody had been scheduled for release under an exchange, but was kept under arrest on Mr Turchynov’s orders.

“Our army kept up its side of the bargain,” Mr Khryakov said. “They betrayed their own.”

Obviously, failed prisoner exchanges do not justify killing prisoners. Except, apparently in the world of those eastern scumbags.

[Vympel]

Ukrainian An-30 shot down by rebels

Of course, the Ukrainians have to keep undermining their already shot credibility by claiming that it was an An-26 carrying "humanitarian supplies".

Obviously, failed prisoner exchanges do not justify killing prisoners. Except, apparently in the world of those eastern scumbags.

Expect it to get worse*. Numerous sources sympathetic to the rebels have been reporting shootings of civilians and captured rebel soldiers by the odious "National Guard" for weeks now. Pretty soon they'll be photographing themselves with each other's body parts - oh wait:

NSFW

*The only hope for a cease fire is that something concrete comes out of Poroshenko and Putin's chat at the D-Day events.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Ukrainian An-30 shot down by rebels

Of course, the Ukrainians have to keep undermining their already shot credibility by claiming that it was an An-26 carrying "humanitarian supplies".

Obviously, failed prisoner exchanges do not justify killing prisoners. Except, apparently in the world of those eastern scumbags.

Expect it to get worse*. Numerous sources sympathetic to the rebels have been reporting shootings of civilians and captured rebel soldiers by the odious "National Guard" for weeks now. Pretty soon they'll be photographing themselves with each other's body parts - oh wait:

NSFW

*The only hope for a cease fire is that something concrete comes out of Poroshenko and Putin's chat at the D-Day events.

And the guy's smiling on it....

[Thanas]

Where are those reports of the Ukrainian army shooting prisoners?

[Vympel]

Where are those reports of the Ukrainian army shooting prisoners?

Not the army, the National Guard (you will recall it was newly created by the coup government and filled with nationalist fighters from the Maidan). Totally different thing. They're on Russian news portals. None I've seen have ever blamed the army. Won't find them on Western news websites for obvious reasons (i.e. they're from the Russians and the Russians are behind all of this therefore everything they say is lies meanwhile lets repeat everything Kiev says as if they're angles of purity and goodness and everything they say is the unvarnished truth, no matter how absurd they are and no matter how disgusting their fighters are)

[Thanas]

I'd still like to see them.

[Vympel]

I'd still like to see them.

In English

Obviously might be propaganda, but given the nature of the conflict and the types of people fighting*, it doesn't stretch credibility to me at all. There are older reports, but I mostly see them on twitter feeds (in Russian) and its hard to find them again.

*Some of these National Guard fuckers openly fly the flags of the SS Galician division that they love so much.

EDIT:

Of greater concern really - in terms of civilian deaths - is the use of artillery in populated areas - which has Human Rights Watch on the case.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/06/06/ukra ... -elect-por

This is priceless though - the feckless morons that the State Department puts out to tongue Kiev's arsehole at every press conference are still pretending that the airstrike which killed civilians wasn't a war crime

QUESTION: On Ukraine.

MS. HARF: Uh-huh.

QUESTION: Would the United States support calls for an investigation of alleged use of military aviation for bombings on the Ukrainian cities? We talked about it in the previous days you talked that you don’t have information on that. I’m referring to such alleged bombings in Luhansk which had led to civilian casualties and alleged use of bomb plot units and the military seizure of Slovyansk and other alleged crimes.

MS. HARF: You’re talking about by the Ukrainian Government?

QUESTION: Excuse me?

MS. HARF: Is that what you’re asking about? By the Ukrainian Government?

QUESTION: Yes.

MS. HARF: So I think – and I – look, I’ve gotten a lot of questions on this over the past few days, and yesterday I did a little bit of – we have no credible evidence to back up any reports about human rights violations by the Ukrainian Government. I also think that it’s really unacceptable to try to draw moral equivalence here between a country defending itself and its people and its buildings and its land and its territory from armed separatists backed by another government who are trying to sow chaos. There is just not an equivalence here, and to try to equate them I think is just fundamentally misreading the situation.

Yes, up here.

But CNN:

The authorities in Kiev denied its planes had been involved. Initially, the anti-terrorist operation said the explosion originated from inside the building, then that an anti-aircraft missile operated by the separatists had misfired, reacting to heat from an air-conditioning system on the outside of the building.

But a CNN investigation in Luhansk has found clear evidence that whatever detonations hit the building and the adjoining park came from the air. The tops of trees were splintered, and a series of small craters — about a dozen — had been blasted in a straight line, starting in the park and reaching the walls of the building, blowing out many of its windows and spraying the area with jagged shrapnel. That’s what appears to have killed most of the victims and injured 20 more.

The pattern of the craters clearly indicated some sort of strafing, according to a munitions expert at the scene with CNN. Their size suggested 30-millimeter ordnance, he said, which is standard equipment on the Su-25, a ground attack fighter, and the Su-27 — both combat aircraft operated by Ukraine.

The Special Monitoring Mission of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe came to a similar conclusion, releasing a statement late Tuesday that said: “Based on the SMM’s limited observation, these strikes were the result of non-guided rockets shot from an aircraft.”

[cosmicalstorm]

One downed transport and one downed bomber today. Tankfighting reported...

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/736050

[Purple]

Here is something from another forum relating to this topic that you might find to be an interesting read.
http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/ ... opic=11850

I just ran into it now.

[K. A. Pital]

In a quick update on the civil war in Ukraine, there seems to be a ceasefire in action since a couple of days already, but the situation is really spinning out of control and it is not as if all fire died down. Someone is shooting at border posts (likely willing to provoke Russian intervention). The Ukrainian Army seems to be winning in the military dimension, since the numbers and heavy equipment have got to work sooner or later.

However, two days ago news came that the rebels captured a massive supply depot of the Ukrainian Army, giving them access to some tanks, MRLS and other stuff like this (which they had been demanding from Russia, incidentally, during the time they were pinned down in Slaviansk).

It seems that Putin is no longer that supportive of the rebellion, but it remains to be seen if Ukraine can hold itself in one piece (my take is that after heavy artillery barrages and aviation were used in urban quarters, this is hardly possible, but then again, Grozny was razed to the ground and it is still a part of Russia).

[Vympel]

Our Ukraine policy disaster

In the face of Russian opposition and the likelihood of exacerbating the burgeoning civil war in the eastern half of his country, newly elected Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko signed the EU-Ukrainian Association Agreement in Brussels last Friday. At the signing, Poroshenko, giving the lie to the claim that the agreement is simply a free-trade agreement, noted that “…the external aggression faced by Ukraine is another strong reason for this crucial step.”

Indeed, Russia’s primary objection to the agreement from the onset of the Ukraine crisis in November 2013, was that it was far more than a simple free-trade agreement and that because it required Ukraine to adopt a large number of the EU’s acquis communautaire, the agreement was not only economically exclusionary towards Russia, the agreement’s Foreign Policy and Security Protocols amounted to a security challenge within Russia’s traditional sphere of influence. It is appropriate to note here that unlike the EU Agreement, the much derided Eurasian Union, which the Yale-historian-turned-pro-Maidan mouthpiece Timothy Snyder has likened to some sinister ideological plot hatched by Vladimir Putin and a virulent Russian nationalist by the name of Alexander Dugin, has no protocols requiring either a coordinated foreign policy, or a common passport.

American policy makers should (though, of course, they will not) take both the signing of the Agreement, as well as the gathering this weekend of thousands of pro-Western protesters on the Maidan, calling for an end to the ceasefire in the east as their cue to step aside and tell Ukraine (with which they have no cultural, historical, demographic, economic, religious, or national-security interests) and Europe (with which they have many similarities) that they can go ahead with their merger—but they’ll have to do so without our help, rhetorical or otherwise. As should be clear by now, our resolutely pro-Maidan posture has culminated in two interconnected strategic setbacks for the United States.

Timothy Snyder might have only recently turned into a pro-Maidan mouthpiece, but he's long been derided by anyone with a clue as one of those scumbag propagandists who tries to pretend the USSR was equivalent to Nazi Germany re: the commission of genocide, giving aid and comfort to the numerous odious forces in Eastern Europe to whitewash their collaboration with the Nazis (and the associated mass slaughter of Jews). The fact that this unpleasant toad gravitated towards yet another anti-Russian political movement that just so happens to have members with historical ties to Nazi collaborators is to be expected.

[Thanas]

The above assumes that Russia got a right to a sphere of influence, it does not. If they want to chose the EU, they are free to do so and should be able to do so without any concern for Russia. As to it being economically disadvantageous to Russia, tough cookies for Russia. None of that excuses armed intervention.

[Vympel]

The above assumes that Russia got a right to a sphere of influence, it does not. If they want to chose the EU, they are free to do so and should be able to do so without any concern for Russia. As to it being economically disadvantageous to Russia, tough cookies for Russia. None of that excuses armed intervention.

No, it merely acknowledges that sphere of influence as a fact, which it is. Whether it has a 'right' to that influence is irrelevant. Its economic and military power relative to its neighbors and the hold it has over them via the supply of energy - as well as ethnic and cultural ties - is what it is. A fact on the ground. Effective foreign policy is about acknowledging reality, not actively fucking shit up and excusing said fuck ups with complaining whether x or y country has a 'right' to do a or b. America and the EU by the same measure had no 'right' to actively meddle in Ukraine's internal politics and legitimise a coup either. It means little and less. And why are you couching this in terms of "none of that excuses armed intervention"? The article plainly has absolutely nothing to do with Russia's intervention, let alone excusing it. Its exclusively talking about American and European policies creating a situation that is disadvantageous for America, which need not have existed at all.