Brexit and General UK politics thread

[His Divine Shadow]

Worth noting however that compared to a US state the Scottish government has very limited control over taxation. I'm sure the SNP would be more than happy to do away with the deficit simply by clamping down on tax-evasion and putting the top-band income and corporation tax rates up by a couple of percent, and probably make up the remaining shortfall with sales tax on legal weed.

Assuming either of that would be enough to get rid of it.

[Bedlam]

Remember the whole of Scotland has a population of not much more than half of Greater London or less than 1/10th of the whole UK and the majority of that population doesn't live far from the English border. A large majority of the imports and exports go via that border. If it did declare independence particularly while hostile with the rest of the UK it would have all the problems of Britexit multiplied several times. The current potential issue of UK planes not being allowed in EU airspace would be even worse for Scottish Planes not being allowed in UK airspace, even if the EU tried to supply Scotland (regardless of by the scenario being presented the whole of the UK staving, it probably wouldn't look great to be only feeding about 1/10th of them on the grounds that about 14% more or them didn't want to leave than the general population is probably politically untenable) it would logistically be near impossible. Plus it would require the EU to act very quickly such as 'Monday cut off supplies to you', 'Wednesday start sending emergency supplies to you'.

[Zaune]

Just when you thought things couldn't possibly get any more absurd, the police are suing the government.

Police chiefs in England and Wales will take legal action in the high court against the government unless it backs down on plans to deduct hundreds of millions of pounds from their budgets, the Guardian has learned.

The unprecedented decision was taken by the National Police Chiefs Council, which sent a formal letter to the Treasury saying it will seek a judicial review of the government’s proposals.

It marks a new low in relations between police chiefs and the government. The NPCC represents police chiefs of the 43 local forces in England and Wales, and it has already hired a barrister to seek a judicial order forcing the government to climb down.

The dispute centres on the Treasury’s recalculation of the money each force needed to pay into the police pension scheme. This landed forces with a £420m bill, on top of the 19% cut in police funding since 2010.

[The Romulan Republic]

Never thought that words "failed state" might apply to the UK until this cluster fuck started.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

With police budgets being cut consistently over the past few years it was only a matter of time before someone said, "HELL NO!". Now we know where the latest budget found its tax breaks from.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

More comedy:

Brexit secretary Dominic Raab says he ‘hadn’t quite understood’ importance of Dover-Calais crossing.

In hindsight it comes as no surprise, it's a perfect example of the level of awareness of the average member of the Brexit Bunch.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Never thought that words "failed state" might apply to the UK until this cluster fuck started.

It's the one thing convincing me that the Tories are definately not trying to turn the UK into a dictatorship. They're actively undermining the very institutions they would need to maintain control.

More comedy:

Brexit secretary Dominic Raab says he ‘hadn’t quite understood’ importance of Dover-Calais crossing.

In hindsight it comes as no surprise, it's a perfect example of the level of awareness of the average member of the Brexit Bunch.

It's pretty much as Anthony King and Ivor Crewe describe in The Blunders of our Governments
(https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/ ... ewe-review). It's a combination of groupthink, ignorance of the world outside the Westminster bubble and a culture in which ministers rush policies out without consulting experts or those who have to implement said policies; among other things.

So yes, terms like 'out of touch' or 'they just don't get it' are applicable. Unfortunately, both Labour and the Tories have a solid track record in that regard.

[Tribble]

And Corbyn reminded everyone of his stance - that the referendum took place, voters voted to leave, and thus Brexit cannot be stopped. So theres little hope that Labour will suddenly pull off a Brexit miracle should they somehow take over.

UK is basically screwed no matter what happens.

[The Romulan Republic]

Never thought that words "failed state" might apply to the UK until this cluster fuck started.

It's the one thing convincing me that the Tories are definately not trying to turn the UK into a dictatorship. They're actively undermining the very institutions they would need to maintain control.

Hey, they could be incompetent tyrants.

Chaos is a ladder.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Never thought that words "failed state" might apply to the UK until this cluster fuck started.

It's the one thing convincing me that the Tories are definately not trying to turn the UK into a dictatorship. They're actively undermining the very institutions they would need to maintain control.

Hey, they could be incompetent tyrants.

Chaos is a ladder.

A ladder for whom?

If you meant that the Tories may be too stupid or deluded (or both) to realise the flaw in their plan, then you may be right. If a series of errors of judgement by otherwise intelligent and capable people could sink the Titanic, then a bad plan by stupid or deluded people can wreck a country.

A recent development.

Brexit timetable thrown into turmoil as Theresa May is forced to cancel planned cabinet meeting to approve her deal

Hopes fading for an EU sign off this month amid fierce resistance to the PM’s proposals in her cabinet and in Brussels

Rob Merrick
Deputy Political Editor @Rob_Merrick
6 hours ago
115 comments

Click to follow
Indy Politics

Theresa May has been forced to abandon plans for an emergency cabinet meeting to approve a Brexit deal, after fresh opposition at home and abroad plunged her timetable into turmoil.

The prime minister shelved the meeting, pencilled in for Monday, slamming on the brakes after fierce resistance in her cabinet and in Brussels threatened to derail the path to an agreement.

A government source conceded that an outline deal might not be ready by Tuesday – making it increasingly unlikely that a special EU summit to sign it off can be held in November, as hoped.

That would leave the UK having to ramp up hugely expensive no-deal preparations and in danger of being unable to pass all necessary legislation before the Brexit deadline next March.

At home, Ms May faced an open challenge to her plans from Andrea Leadsom, the Commons leader, who vowed the UK “cannot be held against its will” by the backstop plan for the Irish border.

Ms Leadsom became the second cabinet minister to insist on a unilateral power to escape being bound in the EU customs union – something explicitly ruled out by Brussels.

In the Belgian capital, talks between UK and EU officials hit a wall over how to terminate the backstop, with fishing rights another key obstacle.

Meanwhile, there was fresh confusion over Labour’s stance on a Final Say referendum on the Brexit outcome – with Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, directly contradicting Jeremy Corbyn.

Cabinet ministers had been told to “clear their diaries” for an “approve the deal” meeting at the end of last week, a get together then put back until Monday.

But, the source told The Independent: “There is not going to be one tomorrow.”

They added: “The cabinet will meet as normal on Tuesday, but I can’t say if it going to be a Brexit cabinet or not, because the negotiations are ongoing.”

The source acknowledged the delay, but said: “The fact is that we have got to get something that’s right. We are not going to accept an outline deal at all costs and we are still working on it.”

Ministers are also demanding to see full legal advice on the power to be conceded over ending the backstop, after Ms May indicated only a legal summary would be made available.

The continued turmoil burst out into the open when Ms Leadsom told BBC Radio 5 Live: “The UK cannot be held against its will in a customs arrangement.”

The prime minister has urged her cabinet to abandon hopes of a unilateral power to end the backstop and push for a joint review mechanism with Brussels instead.

But pro-Brexit Tories fear the UK will locked indefinitely into the customs union – unable to sign its own trade deals – unless it can end the backstop unilaterally, at some point soon after 2020.

Ms Leadsom said: “It must be capable for the United Kingdom to decide to leave that customs arrangement and it cannot be something that the European Union can then hold us to.”

And she warned: “It’s because that would be to then fail to fulfil on the will of the people expressed in the referendum and I very much doubt that we would get it through parliament.”

The warning came days after Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, also insisted the power must rest with “the sovereign British government”.

Ms Leadsom also rejected the idea of an independent body to review if an alternative solution has been found to avoid checks at the Irish border – something dependent on untested technology.

However, she insisted she was not on the verge of resigning, saying: “I’m sticking in the government to make sure that’s where we get to in the end.”

Crucially, the EU is believed to have rejected Britain’s proposal of independent arbitration over ending the backstop, insisting the European Court of Justice must make the decision.

If the prime minister also makes that concession – after repeatedly ruling out ECJ jurisdiction – she would risk even greater opposition on the Tory benches.

Ms Thornberry sought to calm Labour tensions by saying the party could still back a Final Say Brexit referendum, just a day after her leader rubbished the idea.

The shadow foreign secretary said “all options remain on the table” if Labour fails to force a general election by voting against the deal, if there is one.

Mr Corbyn has angered Labour MPs and supporters by arguing Brexit cannot be stopped – and by going on to reject the growing calls for a fresh public vote.

But Ms Thornberry said: “If we don’t have a general election then, yes, of course all the options remain on the table and we would campaign for there to be a people’s vote – but there are several stages before we get that.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 28926.html

I am put in mind of a slow-motion car crash.

[The Jester]

"Car crash" is too gentle a term for the colossal forces about to come into play. I'd want to say it's more like an interaction between an iceberg and an ocean liner but that may be underplaying it still. The stark reality is that some of the numbers are so large, you don't know whether an issue will be relevant or be completely overwhelmed by something far more devastating.

[The Romulan Republic]

You know, I've been growing increasingly disenchanted with Corbyn. Fuck him for refusing to take a stand against Brexit.

It's just a shame that Britain doesn't have any viable candidates for PM who are better.

[Bedlam]

You know, I've been growing increasingly disenchanted with Corbyn. Fuck him for refusing to take a stand against Brexit.

It's just a shame that Britain doesn't have any viable candidates for PM who are better.

The thing is that Cobin has never been against Brexit, it would be extremly hypocritical for him to 'take a stand' now. May herself has actually been far more pro EU than he is and she was handed an instruction by the (slight) majority of the people to leave the EU. I don't like her or the Tory's much but she was basically left with a highly untenable position and has probably tired to do the best she could with it, although calling a general election which significantly weakened her position was a stupid move.

[madd0ct0r]

Farage is now a potential subject of the muller investigation. ..

[The Romulan Republic]

Farage is now a potential subject of the muller investigation. ..

Has been for a while, but yes.

Cambridge Analytica appears to have violated Britain's election laws to advance a far-Right agenda just like they did here. Possibly (though still unproven) in collusion with Russia.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Theresa May has told MPs that the draft Brexit deal reached by negotiators "takes us significantly closer to delivering on what the British people voted for in the referendum".

Speaking at Prime Minister's Question Time, Mrs May said: "We will take back control of our borders, our laws and our money. Leave the Common Fisheries Policy and the Common Agricultural Policy while protecting jobs, security and the integrity of our United Kingdom."

But opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn dismissed the deal as a "failure in its own terms”.

He said: "It doesn't deliver a Brexit for the whole country... it breaches the prime minister's own red lines, it doesn't deliver a strong economic deal that supports jobs and industry, and we know they haven't prepared seriously for no deal.

"Under the prime minister's deal we're going spend years with less say over our laws or how our money is spent."

Mrs May said Mr Corbyn was "wrong" in his description and accused Labour of seeking to "frustrate" Brexit.

Cabinet ministers are gathering for a crunch showdown on this afternoon.

Link.

[The Jester]

It's not so much a deal as a delay of disaster. There's still no solution for what happens when 2021 rolls around and all treaties cease. So much work would need to be done just to get them back to where they are now, it'd be the equivalent of writing a dissertation during an all-nighter. Assuming the legal frameworks allow for it, I suspect they'll asking for another extension when this is about to expire.

[Thanas]

Well, Corbyn has always been a snake when it comes to Brexit, happily scrapping all the workplace protections and safety laws the EU brought in favour of being able to govern away from the bad EU oversight.

Meanwhile, this collection is quite impressive:
https://tompride.wordpress.com/2017/12/ ... rite-here/

[Crazedwraith]

It's all kicking off: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-46200010

Resignations, possible leadership contest. Gove tipped to take over Brexit but only if he gets to renegotiate the deal.

All Kinds of stupid, who is there that wants to take her place with this amount of time to go?

[The Romulan Republic]

Going to be interesting watching the Cons fight each other for the privilege of leading the country into ruin.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

It's all kicking off: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-46200010

Resignations, possible leadership contest. Gove tipped to take over Brexit but only if he gets to renegotiate the deal.

All Kinds of stupid, who is there that wants to take her place with this amount of time to go?

Certainly looks that way.

Also, Jacob Rees-Mogg has sent his letter of no confidence (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nce-in-may). Also, ERG is claiming that the required forty-eight letters will be in by the end of the week.

This could be the beginning of a move against May, though I would be a little surprised if Rees-Mogg put himself front and centre. I thought he was smarter than that. Unless of course, he has a stalking horse or two he can persuade, con, or blackmail into stepping into the firing line. There's more than one Tory big-name with more ambition than sense. In the case of Priti Patel, at least, revenge could also be a factor.

Hard to say how a vote would go. According to the Guardian anyway, May can be removed simply by a vote of the Tory MPs, which is in turn followed by a leadership contest if she loses or gives up and resigns. I don't know if the new PM will need to win a parliamentary confidence vote or not.

[Omeros]

I don't know if the new PM will need to win a parliamentary confidence vote or not.

Strictly speaking, they wouldn't. For example, Gordon Brown took over as PM from Tony Blair in 2007 without the need for a vote of confidence, but he was installed as new leader of the Labour Party without a competition and Labour had a solid Parliamentary majority at the time. Much the same happened when Major replaced Thatcher (except he did have to win his party's leadership in a contest). However, if May jumps or is pushed, whoever replaced her as PM would probably have to call and win a snap general election to have any credibility in office.

[Crazedwraith]

Because that worked out so well for May herself.

[The Jester]

It's all kicking off: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-46200010

Resignations, possible leadership contest. Gove tipped to take over Brexit but only if he gets to renegotiate the deal.

All Kinds of stupid, who is there that wants to take her place with this amount of time to go?

May literally gets the best deal possible given that she's stuck between the DUP, the EU and it's two minutes to midnight (still just kicking the can, but far better than the alternative). And still some wankers think they can do better? Or are they still trying to get their heads around Dover?

At this point, anybody wanting to lead Britain is clearly unfit for the job.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well, Corbyn has always been a snake when it comes to Brexit, happily scrapping all the workplace protections and safety laws the EU brought in favour of being able to govern away from the bad EU oversight.

Yes yes, Corbyn wants out of the EU so he can scrap worker protection laws, that's exactly what he and the labour party wants when in power. It all makes sense now.